Another bites the dust & goes TRBO

[03msc]

I'm understanding completely how the system works, What's confusing me is why the county would want to split, The put all the city and sheriff's office on NexEDGE which is fine.. BUT they left all the county fire departments behind on VHF Narrowband which in turn cut our signal in half and also are paged by the sheriff's department.. Well Problem there is they will send us on something and then turn our frequencies off, Before we could change to their channel, Now we can't, Can't hear them, Can't communicate with them, In the rural area phones don't work.. So what do we have to do? Without and HOPE somebody doesn't get hurt, It's not the fact they didn't change us over, It's the fact they don't let us have access to it incase of disaster, etc. and I don't understand what the issue there is..

Seems like the issue is whomever is in charge in your county isn't using their brain. This is what I was getting at earlier when I mentioned educating those in charge. There needs to be an honest resource - not backed by a manufacturer - as a place of information. Maybe even one of these threads, I don't know. Someone in your county was either misled or completely ignored logic.

 

[iamhere300]

I'm understanding completely how the system works, What's confusing me is why the county would want to split, The put all the city and sheriff's office on NexEDGE which is fine.. BUT they left all the county fire departments behind on VHF Narrowband which in turn cut our signal in half and also are paged by the sheriff's department.. Well Problem there is they will send us on something and then turn our frequencies off, Before we could change to their channel, Now we can't, Can't hear them, Can't communicate with them, In the rural area phones don't work.. So what do we have to do? Without and HOPE somebody doesn't get hurt, It's not the fact they didn't change us over, It's the fact they don't let us have access to it incase of disaster, etc. and I don't understand what the issue there is..

AFG - Assistance to Firefighters Grant program. One of the BIG priorities is interoperable communications. Portables on NXDN/IDAS are 400 -+ apiece. Do a regional and just replace everything. If it is just the rural part of your county you are looking at most likely a 5% cost share.

Just replace it all with brand new, and you can talk to them, and analog.

 

[INDY72]

Even with an AFG, or any of the other USDHS grants, you still have to bump heads with the County PTB (Powers that Be) to even apply for it. Remember they are the very ones that messed it all up to begin with. Then you have to convince the radio shop thats run by the SO to program some kind of FD/OEM and Interop slots into not only your mobiles and HT's, but also the dispatch consoles. Thats after applying to the FCC to change your licenses. But then again because your all NOT going P-25 good luck getting ANY of the available grants. We have been warning about this kind of boondoggle for over 2 years now. Here it is. Anyone paying attention yet?

 

[JRayfield]

Many people have viewed the problem with interoperability as being 'technical'. They've also considered P25 to be the 'magic silver bullet' that fixes interoperability problems (i.e. if everyone is using P25, then everyone is interoperable). Neither idea are completely true. From what I've seen, interoperability problems (the lack of interoperability) are more of a 'political' issue, or in some cases, a lack of proper planning and design of communications systems. It's very easy to obtain interoperability between most systems (extremely easy between analog and MOTOTRBO, extremely easy between analog and P25, very easy between MOTOTRBO and P25, and a bit harder with NexEDGE, as there is no 'interoperability equipment' that will interface with NexEDGE at the IP level, but it still can be done using other methods).

John Rayfield, Jr. CETma

I'm understanding completely how the system works, What's confusing me is why the county would want to split, The put all the city and sheriff's office on NexEDGE which is fine.. BUT they left all the county fire departments behind on VHF Narrowband which in turn cut our signal in half and also are paged by the sheriff's department.. Well Problem there is they will send us on something and then turn our frequencies off, Before we could change to their channel, Now we can't, Can't hear them, Can't communicate with them, In the rural area phones don't work.. So what do we have to do? Without and HOPE somebody doesn't get hurt, It's not the fact they didn't change us over, It's the fact they don't let us have access to it incase of disaster, etc. and I don't understand what the issue there is..

 

[iamhere300]

Even with an AFG, or any of the other USDHS grants, you still have to bump heads with the County PTB (Powers that Be) to even apply for it. Remember they are the very ones that messed it all up to begin with. Then you have to convince the radio shop thats run by the SO to program some kind of FD/OEM and Interop slots into not only your mobiles and HT's, but also the dispatch consoles. Thats after applying to the FCC to change your licenses. But then again because your all NOT going P-25 good luck getting ANY of the available grants. We have been warning about this kind of boondoggle for over 2 years now. Here it is. Anyone paying attention yet?

Of course you have to get a buy in from the county - the rest falls in from there. But when you are bringing money to the table that buy in comes a lot easier than asking the county to provide you with equipment.

 

[wv_mountaineer]

Questions

Those of you that have tried Digital Decoding Software to receive NexEDGE... what was the name of the software you were using. One of the local PD's have switched over about 18 months ago and I want to see if I can decode it. How do I know which freq they are using. THey added 3 or 4 new ones when they converted over. I will be using a Windows machine will I be able to get the job done or will I have to install Lynx? Will I need to have a discriminator tap into the a digital scanner? I have questions since I know nothing about do this. Can y'all tell me "us" just what we need to do to get into starting this up, getting it running and making it work?

 

[INDY72]

Many people have viewed the problem with interoperability as being 'technical'. They've also considered P25 to be the 'magic silver bullet' that fixes interoperability problems (i.e. if everyone is using P25, then everyone is interoperable). Neither idea are completely true. From what I've seen, interoperability problems (the lack of interoperability) are more of a 'political' issue, or in some cases, a lack of proper planning and design of communications systems. It's very easy to obtain interoperability between most systems (extremely easy between analog and MOTOTRBO, extremely easy between analog and P25, very easy between MOTOTRBO and P25, and a bit harder with NexEDGE, as there is no 'interoperability equipment' that will interface with NexEDGE at the IP level, but it still can be done using other methods).

John Rayfield, Jr. CETma

The whole idea of Interop is to get everyone able to work together with somewhat simple joint communications formats. With straight analog VHF, or UHF this is simply a matter of putting a set of common frequencies in the radios, and training personnel to use them. With digital it gets a tad more complex, thus P-25. Originally set up for trunking as a common interface that EVERYONE can use no matter if its Motorola, EFJ, Harris, your momma in laws tin can.... It has been extended to conventional radio as well. Now for TDMA, they took a bit too long in formally setting up common ground for P-25 Phase II. But now its done. Again P-25 is not a "Magic Silver Bullet", but it IS the best common interface for everyone using digital to be on the same page. The MotoTRBO NexEDGE issues aren't as simple as has been stated. Not only will MotoTRBO NOT work with NexEDGE, the trunking versions will NOT work with the conventional. There currently is NO radio that can do both P-25 and MotoTRBO. (Still in the works 2 years later.) There is NO radio that can do both P-25 and NexEDGE. (Not even on the table from what I hear.) Nothing exists that can simply do P-25 to MotoTRBO to NexEDGE which in at least two states would have to exist to get everyone able to interop now since lots went the cheap route. The only solution now to the issue requires agencies to have two or three different radios, and patching up the wazoo to be able to interop. That is going backwords! The whole idea is KISS... KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID! When you can get through the crap, convince the PTB that cheaper is not always better, and that actual lives are on the line, not just thier budgets. Thats step one. Then you properly set up common emergency planning and operational development. Then put in communications systems that have interop as one of the primary goals. Properly train everyone to use it. Bingo.

 

[iamhere300]

Even with an AFG, or any of the other USDHS grants, you still have to bump heads with the County PTB (Powers that Be) to even apply for it. Remember they are the very ones that messed it all up to begin with. Then you have to convince the radio shop thats run by the SO to program some kind of FD/OEM and Interop slots into not only your mobiles and HT's, but also the dispatch consoles. Thats after applying to the FCC to change your licenses. But then again because your all NOT going P-25 good luck getting ANY of the available grants. We have been warning about this kind of boondoggle for over 2 years now. Here it is. Anyone paying attention yet?

Of course you have to get a buy in from the county - the rest falls in from there. But when you are bringing money to the table that buy in comes a lot easier than asking the county to provide you with equipment.

 

[INDY72]

Of course you have to get a buy in from the county - the rest falls in from there. But when you are bringing money to the table that buy in comes a lot easier than asking the county to provide you with equipment.

It isn't a buy in that is the issue. Its that you must convince them of the basic need your agency has in the first place. Not easy since they seem to think your an non entitiy by screwing up in the first place. And tell me how a rural VFD gets the money to bring to the table to play the game anyway. 90% of VFD's get money through oh yeah, thats right, GRANTS. Then additional funds through charging for fire protection regions, and EMS services. If you currently are wanting a grant for communications systems, and your wanting to go digital, and you don't go P-25, you are NOT getting a grant. Analog narowband, or upgrades to that system you still can. One example: Jefferson County Mississippi - The county bought a bunch of radios, including a new repeater that was specifically meant for the E-911 system, especially all the VFD's. The repeater was set up, and radios programmed in the SO's patrol cars, and deputies HT's. All the other mobiles and HT's were tossed in a trailer. They sat there for years. Now they all have to be narrowbanded, and installed in the Fire Trucks like they were supposed to have done to begin with. This illustrates the whole point of the lack of caring involved in the PTB.

And with these new issues, it only gets worse. No one wants to work with each other. Its all about who can get the shiny new toy and not let ANYONE else play with it.

 

[oem3]

Well, I see I've stirred the pot. Good. This brings points out in the open. I understand a lot of these points made. I know about coverage issues (we have had them for years, primarily due to poor system design, setup, and maintenance; wer are flat around here!!), there will always be some issues. Look at cellular and the many issues with going on with that. A lot of people are aware of the 3dB loss in coverage...etc. seen that already too. That is why we are putting our FD repeater on a 180 foot tower from the current 50 foot.

There are going to be numerous combinations and specific stories, but the original post here was about one particular agency in one area. Prior coverage was not a problem. The question I want to point out is what happens to interop. I know there are tons of statements on this in the forums, but for this particular case, it seems to have been overlooked. Much like in the case Brian mentions for his county. I'm not trying to step on toes here either. It does seem like much of the problem could be political and unfortunately there are a lot of DIFFERENT tools to work with now. Just pointing out some observations from my point of view.

 

[oem3]

From what I've seen, interoperability problems (the lack of interoperability) are more of a 'political' issue, or in some cases, a lack of proper planning and design of communications systems.
John Rayfield, Jr. CETma

OK, bingo there it is, this is problably the closest hit to what happened in this particular case. They are the only entity using MOTOTRBO in the county. Everyone else, AWIN and UHF NB. Another person posted abt having our new toy and no-one else can play or be on our system...that is also true in some cases. Again, political and territorial problems. I don't know how these can be resolved, they have always existed.

 

[iamhere300]

It isn't a buy in that is the issue. Its that you must convince them of the basic need your agency has in the first place. Not easy since they seem to think your an non entitiy by screwing up in the first place. And tell me how a rural VFD gets the money to bring to the table to play the game anyway. 90% of VFD's get money through oh yeah, thats right, GRANTS. Then additional funds through charging for fire protection regions, and EMS services. If you currently are wanting a grant for communications systems, and your wanting to go digital, and you don't go P-25, you are NOT getting a grant. Analog narowband, or upgrades to that system you still can. One example: Jefferson County Mississippi - The county bought a bunch of radios, including a new repeater that was specifically meant for the E-911 system, especially all the VFD's. The repeater was set up, and radios programmed in the SO's patrol cars, and deputies HT's. All the other mobiles and HT's were tossed in a trailer. They sat there for years. Now they all have to be narrowbanded, and installed in the Fire Trucks like they were supposed to have done to begin with. This illustrates the whole point of the lack of caring involved in the PTB.

And with these new issues, it only gets worse. No one wants to work with each other. Its all about who can get the shiny new toy and not let ANYONE else play with it.

By "buy in" I was not talking about money - the county has to agree with what you want to do, and agree to be a part of it. That is the "buy in" I was talking about.

Not that I would know anything about rural VFD's. Not a thing about counties that have gotten half a million in the past year to simulcast all their paging repeaters together and narrowband the system - with a cash buy in from 911 of another half a million. I don't know that they are going to be using this in a narrowband analog system. I don't know anything about the process where most all of these fire departments have already upgraded their mobiles and portables, yes using analog all the way to P25 trunking radios on VHF to get upgraded, mainly from grant funding.

All this in a county where 9 out of the 13 departments all have budgets under 10k a year for everything - fuel, insurance, utilities, maintenance, oh yeah, fire equipment also.

Except for the fact I am the Chief of one of those departments. I wrote the AFG grant for the regional 500k grant. I fought and scratched to get all the agencies involved on board. I got the 911 board to agree to the extra 500k. I sold many of the radios from our regional Homeland security grant program.

And there a lots of grants to go digital that do NOT require P25.

If an agency wants to pursue grant funding I am more than happy to help them, although obviously I must be unqualified and not correct in my thinking.

 

[iamhere300]

Many people have viewed the problem with interoperability as being 'technical'. They've also considered P25 to be the 'magic silver bullet' that fixes interoperability problems (i.e. if everyone is using P25, then everyone is interoperable). Neither idea are completely true. From what I've seen, interoperability problems (the lack of interoperability) are more of a 'political' issue, or in some cases, a lack of proper planning and design of communications systems. It's very easy to obtain interoperability between most systems (extremely easy between analog and MOTOTRBO, extremely easy between analog and P25, very easy between MOTOTRBO and P25, and a bit harder with NexEDGE, as there is no 'interoperability equipment' that will interface with NexEDGE at the IP level, but it still can be done using other methods).

John Rayfield, Jr. CETma

Totally correct. Rural Fire Departments here in Missouri have had interoperability for years - called fire mutual aid. Worked really well.

Our technology solutions have clouded the water, training and politics are the major issues.

 

[zzdiesel]

Missouri used to use 155.475 often in the past, but not much anymore. I still hear some on the Fire Mutual Aid 155.280

 

[iamhere300]

Missouri used to use 155.475 often in the past, but not much anymore. I still hear some on the Fire Mutual Aid 155.280

I tend to use MTAC more than Law MA anymore. It actually is monitored in some places. Moswin will sooner or later make that even more unused.

It will take a while, and agencies that have gotten DMR or IDAS won't be using (for the most part) the trunking system.

 

[btritch]

That's exactly what's going on here, Backwards Movement.. They're changing the departments that have high budgets that can afford it over to UHF NexEDGE and leaving the ones who can't which are the low budget VFD's on Narrowband VHF.. Now it's not the fact they leave us on the old systems, The point is for those of us who WANT to purchase a radio to hear them, The County won't allow it.. Say we don't need it, And as far as multiple radios go, Yes, Our EMS units have 5, VHF Narrowband to talk to us VFD's, UHF Narrowband for their current system to use as backup, VHF Narrowband for nationwide 340 communication, and P25 for AWIN Trauma Com Network and the new UHF NexEDGE they're fixing to get.. 5 radio's is a bit ridiculous if you ask me, SO has 3, VHF Narrowband, UHF NexEDGE and UHF Analog for Backup, City PD Has 2, VHF Narrowband and UHF NexEDGE, City Fire has 2, VHF Narrowband and UHF NexEDGE, County Rescue has 2, VHF Narrowband and UHF NexEDGE, County VFD's have 1, VHF Narrowband.. So Going back to the multple Radio's think.. Yea I think we got that dept covered, Oh and it's not our OEM in charge of the county radio systems, I won't mention a name but it's the local radio dealer who just happens to own most of the tower space the repeaters are on and is a Kenwood Only dealer.. Oh And NOT ONLY did they leave us on VHF Narrowband, They also changed us to PL tones that will work on Kenwood ONLY radios, Scanners, Vertex, Motorola, Etc. won't do them... We had to change all non Kenwood Radio's out..But going backwards, Yes We are, I could go on and on

 

[iamhere300]

I won't mention a name but it's the local radio dealer who just happens to own most of the tower space the repeaters are on and is a Kenwood Only dealer.. Oh And NOT ONLY did they leave us on VHF Narrowband, They also changed us to PL tones that will work on Kenwood ONLY radios, Scanners, Vertex, Motorola, Etc. won't do them... We had to change all non Kenwood Radio's out..But going backwards, Yes We are, I could go on and on

Yeah, N.A. and his company. Bet I can make those tones match up with at least two other manufacturers though. Guaranteed.

It is a shame that the radio world has dropped as low as it has. Many companies feel the only way to compete is by games.

 

[whacker]

This thread has been a most informative read, as some agencies in nearby towns have converted to some form of DMR, even though the state I'm in (Michigan) has a state-wide full P25 system that most other counties and locales have joined. From the reading I've done the choices seem to be made because of the comparative costs of narrowbanding adjustment (to existing equipment) vs. joining the state system vs. getting all new DMR equipment. That and perhaps they've received some sort of grant to do it a particular way (and maybe also the "hard to monitor -- for now" factor). Anyway, I'm going to be checking out DSD for my part in the hobby.

 

[03msc]

I've also enjoyed this thread. It may have gotten slightly off topic from the original post but definitely has some connections.

My question is...what steps should be taken (tried) to make sure that our county (not just mine but whichever you're in, if it hasn't changed yet) doesn't end up on this junk? I'm serious. I know there are no guarantees but if the dealers and salesmen are pushing these systems hard (like many indicate) then the best thing is education of those who make the decisions beforehand. Is it the OEM coordinator in most counties? If so, what pieces of information or sources for information would be best to point them to so that they know all options and don't make this jump to unmonitorable systems? At least, what could be tried...though they may do their own thing anyway, obviously...

Or is it completely hopeless?

 

[INDY72]

In MOST locations its Emergency Management, or Sheriff's Office that does the hobnobbing on radio systems. In a few they now have an Emergency Communications Office/E-911 District type of thing set up that EVERY public safety agency in the area has input on communications systems. Then the buck gets passed to the state level, then if approved by them, gets coordinated with an APCO person, then onward from there.

Example: Hot Dang VFD that runs ops in a two county FPD needs to upgrade from a single BM set up that barely covers 3/4 of thier area, to a 2 repeater & BM narrowband VHF set up. They go to both county supervisors and get the pitch in. Both counties agree, and submit that to the State Wireless Communications Agency. They vote, and approve it. This then goes to the APCO coordinator who helps them submit it to FCC. At the same time they begin the bidding war to get the contractors to build the system, buy gear from, do the installs and programming. The FCC aproves and assigns freqs etc. Eventually some lucky set of contractors win the jobs. Then eventually the system gets built. A couple of years later its outdated and time to start again...

The phase at which you the general public has any say at all is during the open county/city council/board of supervisors meetings at which this is discussed. If you can A: Have a big enough group of interested voters, and B: Have an well organized, and well researched arguement, or data points, you may actually get past the stone wall that sits between most of those peoples ears.