BCD436HP/BCD536HP: BCD436HP - The Sensitivity "test" (it had to come out eventually..)

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scanman1958

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Yes I forgot to mention the lower power outputs on the new trunked systems. Especially 700/800 systems. They can put out as low as 75watts. A lot of old VHF high transmitters would crank out 100-150 watts or so and with an efficient antenna could have an RFI (?) or ERF (I forgot) of over 200 watts. Put that base antenna at the top of a hill and you had coverage.

And to think now that the same county that used to have one main base antenna (and maybe a couple small repeaters for bad coverage areas) have now got upwards of 12 sites on 150 foot towers to get the same coverage.

I do wish I had that old Regency still. Technically I do but the keypad is shot. Those were the days.
 

joeuser

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You have to realize that the old Regency HX-1000/1200/1500 radios were absolute killers on VHF high, like the truly awful AOR 900 was on 800MHZ. I kept my 1000 for years after it should have been retired, all duct taped together for years just because the VHF was so good. It was pretty decent on 400 megs too, but VHF was probably better than anything else I've ever had, with my Icom 24AT a pretty close second with much worse audio. A friend's HX-1500 is still working fine, and he uses it just for Railband at this point, as it's better than all his other stuff.

My PSR-500 and Pro-106 and 197's pick up pretty much anything I want to hear, well enough that I can stand to listen to it and not lock them out because the squelch popping or too much hiss. The X36 radios I've tried here have all failed miserably on anything VHF, regardless of the firmware versions. Toss in the SD card issues a couple of them have had, and I'll pass on these, let someone else have the headaches. I'll be more than happy to "take a look" at their new scanners, even though some of them don't work very well. If anyone asks me about the X36 scanners, I ask them, "Do you listen to VHF high?". If they say yes, I tell them to get an older model Uniden, or go to an RS/Whistler radio instead. You would think anything should pick up VHF high decently at this point, but not so..
The SD card issues, I believe are user error. I think users are not stopping the mass storage device in windows before they yank the USB off. I can't complain about the VHF performance, the little I have used it. When I think about it, I didn't get the 436 for VHF I got it for P25p1. I have my other/original rigs for the VHF. Do people really get rid of their older sets just because they got a new one? I don't, I won't. They accel at what they were made for. Which is exactly what my 436 does...
 

sibbley

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Hi, Kevin.

The internal noise issue was going to be my next guess as to what's going on here. I've never hooked up my 436 to an external antenna, but I will soon, so as to test that theory.

However, none of this explains Boatanchor's numbers, assuming he was using test equipment comparable to yours.

Thanks.

-Johnnie

I have the reception issues on VHF and UHF. I am convinced it's all in the antenna. Internal noise may be the issue with using a duck. When I use an external antenna (attic or mobile), reception is excellent. Firmware version doesn't matter either. Seems like the farther away the antenna is from the radio, the better the reception.
 

AA6IO

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I have the reception issues on VHF and UHF. I am convinced it's all in the antenna. Internal noise may be the issue with using a duck. When I use an external antenna (attic or mobile), reception is excellent. Firmware version doesn't matter either. Seems like the farther away the antenna is from the radio, the better the reception.

Yes indeed.With my external antenna on roof and with a mag mount antenna on a large cake pan just outside my window about 15 feet from scanner, 436HP sensitivity seems very good on VHF. On the cake dish antenna right now as I type this message, getting 5 wx stations and monitoring Ventura PD and FD quite well about 75 miles away. Actually more sensitive than my new WS1080 with same cake dish antenna.
Amazing.
Steve AA6IO
 

sibbley

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Yes indeed.With my external antenna on roof and with a mag mount antenna on a large cake pan just outside my window about 15 feet from scanner, 436HP sensitivity seems very good on VHF. On the cake dish antenna right now as I type this message, getting 5 wx stations and monitoring Ventura PD and FD quite well about 75 miles away. Actually more sensitive than my new WS1080 with same cake dish antenna.
Amazing.
Steve AA6IO

The thing that bites is, I bought the 436 because I wanted a portable radio. Having to use a mobile or attic antenna make for much less portability! I've just learned over the last few months to use it in the car or at home only.
 

mule1075

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The thing that bites is, I bought the 436 because I wanted a portable radio. Having to use a mobile or attic antenna make for much less portability! I've just learned over the last few months to use it in the car or at home only.
Have you tried a different duck or are you using the stock antenna?

Sent from my Z750C using Tapatalk
 

sibbley

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Have you tried a different duck or are you using the stock antenna?

Sent from my Z750C using Tapatalk

I've used several ducks. From band specific to wide band RH 77. The Diamond RH 789 telescopic works best fully extended. Funny thing is, I can receive digital comms (non trunked) 40 miles away, but it's deaf on analog at the same distance.

But, give it an external antenna and it's an awesome receiver.
 

zz0468

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...Now if this isn't confusing I don't know what is. My results may explain why I don't see the sensitivity issues that others see.

I don't think so. I think you all are barking up the wrong tree, when it comes to determining why you're so unhappy with the performance of the radio.

The difference between the OP's sensitivity measurements and yours is only a small handful of dB. If you were to make a comparison of SINAD measurements on any given receiver, and make a 3-4 dB variation in the signal generator output, in a typical FM receiver, you would barely be able to discern the difference. Operationally, all things being equal, you would be almost unable to tell the difference between a pair of receivers operated side by side with a 4 db difference in sensitivity, unless signals are already extremely weak, and not saturating the receiver.

In a typical public safety system, signal levels on the street in the primary service area are going to be in the tens of microvolts, well above the saturation level in an FM receiver, and therefore several dB variations in the sensitivity of individual receivers will be virtually undetectable.

Of course, if you're trying to DX systems from well outside their intended coverage area, then maximizing performance becomes more of a concern, but I would still submit that the handful of dB in measured differences between yours and the OP's radios would not be a significant factor, unless the signal is actually arriving at your receivers antenna terminal at less than a half microvolt, in which case, you're going to need additional measures to make it comfortable to listen to (i.e. better antenna, preamp, etc.) Hobbyists need to adjust their expectations accordingly. Professionals know when to simply not bother.

I didn't perform any tests for internal noise, but I'd be willing to bet it's present.

I'll guarantee it's present, and this statement is more along the lines of what I think you'll find the problem is.

Somewhere in the thread, someone mentioned older scanners with 1 microvolt sensitivity kicking butt compared to the 436. The reason for this is due to the synthesizer's phase noise. Phase noise is always present, but in a synthesizer, it becomes one of the parameters that an engineer must use to balance cost vs. performance. The speed at which a scanner must switch channels is important to the users, and that's another tradeoff. In synthesizer design, it becomes a balance of cost and complexity vs phase noise, step size, and scan speed. In a consumer grade scanner, cost and speed is the winner, and phase noise performance is the losing parameter. The synthesizer/vco assembly alone in a commercial/public safety grade radio probably costs more than your entire 436, and therefor it will scan fast, and have good phase noise performance.

The end result with this poor phase noise will be the perception that the receiver sensitivity is bad, and even strong signals that are in full saturation will never completely quiet, as compared with something like a commercial radio, or an older crystal controlled scanner. The noise of the synthesizer is heterodyned down to the IF along with the desired signal, and is superimposed on the resulting IF signal that gets demodulated. The perceived difference in performance with individual 436's could be a few db difference in phase noise (an acceptable variation in a production run), or individual preference in just how much quieting is acceptable, along with that small handful of dB in actual measured sensitivity. And so long as that last item is within specification, the user has no grounds for a beef against Uniden.

Note that the synthesizer phase noise performance is not listed in the radio's spec sheet.

So, in the end, what I suspect is that within these newer scanners, the synthesizer phase noise performance is somewhat worse than in previous scanners. Check things like channel step size, scan rate, and available frequency ranges, and if any of those parameters are substantially better than previous versions, it's a fair bet that the phase noise is substantially worse. If not, that scanner would become prohibitively expensive. The fact is, while most hobbyists don't know it, it's synthesizer phase noise that causes the perception that commercial radios are more sensitive, and better performing radios than scanners. That, and the third order intercept point on the receiver. The actual sensitivity in microvolts is quite comparable.

And not to get nit-picky, but if the Uniden spec is .3 uV (and not .300 uV) then your radios meet this spec in all but one test (820.5 MHz).as anything from .3 to .399 would be within spec...but I'm not here to argue. :D

It would be worthwhile for someone to compare the actual specs, and make the necessary measurements to see if the radios actually meet it. I suspect even the "bad" ones do. Even the OP's measurements are close enough that I wouldn't quibble about it. The differences are within acceptable measurement error range.

I noticed that among the specs published for the 436 and 536 are "signal to noise" specifications. That represents an opportunity to include the effects of synthesizer performance in evaluating the radio. On VHF and 800, it's around 40 db. That's "adequate" but certainly not a spectacular number.
 
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joeuser

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I don't think so. I think you all are barking up the wrong tree, when it comes to determining why you're so unhappy with the performance of the radio.

The difference between the OP's sensitivity measurements and yours is only a small handful of dB. If you were to make a comparison of SINAD measurements on any given receiver, and make a 3-4 dB variation in the signal generator output, in a typical FM receiver, you would barely be able to discern the difference. Operationally, all things being equal, you would be almost unable to tell the difference between a pair of receivers operated side by side with a 4 db difference in sensitivity, unless signals are already extremely weak, and not saturating the receiver.

In a typical public safety system, signal levels on the street in the primary service area are going to be in the tens of microvolts, well above the saturation level in an FM receiver, and therefore several dB variations in the sensitivity of individual receivers will be virtually undetectable.

Of course, if you're trying to DX systems from well outside their intended coverage area, then maximizing performance becomes more of a concern, but I would still submit that the handful of dB in measured differences between yours and the OP's radios would not be a significant factor, unless the signal is actually arriving at your receivers antenna terminal at less than a half microvolt, in which case, you're going to need additional measures to make it comfortable to listen to (i.e. better antenna, preamp, etc.) Hobbyists need to adjust their expectations accordingly. Professionals know when to simply not bother.



I'll guarantee it's present, and this statement is more along the lines of what I think you'll find the problem is.

Somewhere in the thread, someone mentioned older scanners with 1 microvolt sensitivity kicking butt compared to the 436. The reason for this is due to the synthesizer's phase noise. Phase noise is always present, but in a synthesizer, it becomes one of the parameters that an engineer must use to balance cost vs. performance. The speed at which a scanner must switch channels is important to the users, and that's another tradeoff. In synthesizer design, it becomes a balance of cost and complexity vs phase noise, step size, and scan speed. In a consumer grade scanner, cost and speed is the winner, and phase noise performance is the losing parameter. The synthesizer/vco assembly alone in a commercial/public safety grade radio probably costs more than your entire 436, and therefor it will scan fast, and have good phase noise performance.

The end result with this poor phase noise will be the perception that the receiver sensitivity is bad, and even strong signals that are in full saturation will never completely quiet, as compared with something like a commercial radio, or an older crystal controlled scanner. The noise of the synthesizer is heterodyned down to the IF along with the desired signal, and is superimposed on the resulting IF signal that gets demodulated. The perceived difference in performance with individual 436's could be a few db difference in phase noise (an acceptable variation in a production run), or individual preference in just how much quieting is acceptable, along with that small handful of dB in actual measured sensitivity. And so long as that last item is within specification, the user has no grounds for a beef against Uniden.

Note that the synthesizer phase noise performance is not listed in the radio's spec sheet.

So, in the end, what I suspect is that within these newer scanners, the synthesizer phase noise performance is somewhat worse than in previous scanners. Check things like channel step size, scan rate, and available frequency ranges, and if any of those parameters are substantially better than previous versions, it's a fair bet that the phase noise is substantially worse. If not, that scanner would become prohibitively expensive. The fact is, while most hobbyists don't know it, it's synthesizer phase noise that causes the perception that commercial radios are more sensitive, and better performing radios than scanners. That, and the third order intercept point on the receiver. The actual sensitivity in microvolts is quite comparable.



It would be worthwhile for someone to compare the actual specs, and make the necessary measurements to see if the radios actually meet it. I suspect even the "bad" ones do. Even the OP's measurements are close enough that I wouldn't quibble about it. The differences are within acceptable measurement error range.

I noticed that among the specs published for the 436 and 536 are "signal to noise" specifications. That represents an opportunity to include the effects of synthesizer performance in evaluating the radio. On VHF and 800, it's around 40 db. That's "adequate" but certainly not a spectacular number.
I had to read this twice and all I came out with at the end is this guy is smarter than I am! I think I got confirmation on why I keep all my older stuff also.
 

Boatanchor

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Odd BCD436HP squelch operation

The squelch operation is also strange on my 436HP.

On a scale of 0-15, the squelch is closed at setting 2. In other words, if you want the radio to scan and the mute to be the most sensitive, setting 2 is the lowest you can go. This in itself is not strange.

What is strange is that even with the squelch set to 2, the actual squelch opening point varies considerably depending on the band you are monitoring.

For example, on 510Mhz, the squelch refuses to open until the signal reaches -112.5dBm or 0.53uV!
Now I know that the receiver is a little deaf on this band anyway, but at 112.5dBm, the signal is well above the 12dB Sinad point and actually approaching ~16-17dB Sinad!

On 810Mhz, the squelch will not open until -113.6dBm or about 0.467uV.

So, the point about the actual radios sensitivity is somewhat moot, because unless you have an almost noise free signal on some of these bands, the mute won't open anyway.

The squelch issue is one that presumably can be fixed by a firmware update and I believe Uniden actually noted that they have fiddled with the squelch operation in the last firmware release.

Maybe, this is one on the reasons why people are noting that analogue reception is improved by rolling back to previous firmware versions. It's not that the radio is becoming more sensitive with previous firmware, it's just that the squelch is opening more reliably on weaker signals and users are hearing more.
 

zz0468

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What is strange is that even with the squelch set to 2, the actual squelch opening point varies considerably depending on the band you are monitoring.

That shouldn't strike you as strange. There are a lot of variables, both inside and outside the radio that will change as you change bands. The squelch behavior will reflect those differences.

For example, on 510Mhz, the squelch refuses to open until the signal reaches -112.5dBm or 0.53uV!
Now I know that the receiver is a little deaf on this band anyway, but at 112.5dBm, the signal is well above the 12dB Sinad point and actually approaching ~16-17dB Sinad!

How are you making those measurements? You mentioned a service monitor, so that part is obvious. Have you tried comparing it's behavior direct to the monitor, vs through an iso-tee, both terminated and on an antenna? With modulation or just an unmodulated carrier? Squelch at threshold vs. squelch tight? Have you tried setting the squelch at threshold with a termination on the antenna port and then connecting the antenna and see if it comes unsquelched? Have you done effective sensitivity tests with an iso-tee to see if you have any local desense that may be affecting squelch operation?

On 810Mhz, the squelch will not open until -113.6dBm or about 0.467uV.

Why are you measuring at 810 MHz? That's the system input band. How does it behave at 850-870?

The squelch issue is one that presumably can be fixed by a firmware update...

...It's not that the radio is becoming more sensitive with previous firmware, it's just that the squelch is opening more reliably on weaker signals and users are hearing more.

Is the radio actually DSP based where software affects performance of the IF?
 

Boatanchor

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I'm simply reporting it as I see it, there's no need to shoot the messenger.

Fact is, my 396XT receives signals that don't even open the squelch on the 436HP.
Others have reported similar occurrences.

Part of the problem may be related to lower sensitivity on some bands. Part of the problem could be the attributed to the squelch operation.

There may well be other factors.

If we don't bring these issues to Uniden's attention, there will be no follow up by the company.
 

zz0468

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I'm simply reporting it as I see it, there's no need to shoot the messenger.

No one is shooting the messenger. I have no horse in this race, I'm just interested in the technical phenomenon that is causing people to be so dissatisfied, when a look at the specs indicates that there should be no problems. Something is wrong with these radios, and it's an interesting problem.

Fact is, my 396XT receives signals that don't even open the squelch on the 436HP.
Others have reported similar occurrences.

I don't doubt it.

This is why I wrote my diatribe above about synthesizer phase noise. It's also part of why I asked how you were making those measurements. Depending on how the squelch operates, and just how noisy those 436 and 536 VCO's are, it could impact how the squelch behaves. Do you have access to some high quality commercial gear? Maybe even an amateur 2 meter or 440 radio.

Do a quieting type sensitivity test, as well as sinad. But run the generator up with no modulation while measuring quieting and see the difference between a scanner and a "real" radio. I've seen some scanners that are so bad, they won't quiet beyond about 30 db no matter how much signal you put in. That's pretty "hissy" and makes it seem like poor sensitivity. That noise getting into the IF could also impact how the squelch operates, and even if the actual sensitivity is .3 uV, it could take .5 uV to overcome the noise enough to convince the squelch circuit there's a signal there.

Part of the problem may be related to lower sensitivity on some bands. Part of the problem could be the attributed to the squelch operation.

There may well be other factors.

Well, I've added my spin to the question. I don't own one of these scanners, and won't. But I've put a number of scanners on the bench before, and run them through their paces, and have noted a steady deterioration of phase noise and other performance issues as scanners "advance the state of the art".

While the manufacturers are concentrating on features, modes, memories, and pretty displays, they have forgotten some very basic RF engineering principles and have settled for "good enough" on the RF side... or is it?

If we don't bring these issues to Uniden's attention, there will be no follow up by the company.

Indeed.
 

Boatanchor

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I've used several ducks. From band specific to wide band RH 77. The Diamond RH 789 telescopic works best fully extended. Funny thing is, I can receive digital comms (non trunked) 40 miles away, but it's deaf on analog at the same distance.

But, give it an external antenna and it's an awesome receiver.

I have a theory on this.

As mentioned above, the analogue squelch is pretty tight on the 436HP even at the lowest setting of 2.
Also, the squelch does seem to get tighter (harder to open) on the higher bands than the lower bands.
At 40mhz for example, the squelch opens at -119dbm, but at 500mhz, the squelch opens at -112.5dbm.

It is possible that the analogue squelch is not even used on digital only (defined) channels. If so, it is possible that weak digital channels could be decoded, while an analog channel at the same site and signal strength may not even open the squelch and/or stop the scan.
 

PiccoIntegra

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You're going to find weird things with the newer x36HP scanners because they have squelch tables. There are five different tables, those being NFM, FM, AM, WFM/FMB, and Digital. Each have their own RSSI values(low and high) with respect to the squelch setting. There are twenty levels of squelch, so each table has twenty entries for each setting.

If you're familiar with sending serial commands to the scanner, I'll tell you privately how to read these values. I won't post them publicly in these forums.
 

Boatanchor

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Thanks, I had a feeling there was something like this going on, but it almost appears that there are actually different squelch tables for each band too.

There is a marked difference in the NFM squelch operation between the low bands and the higher bands and not all of it can be attributed to different sensitivity.

There is also something going on with the scan speed.

I've read reports about slow scan speed, but am only now starting to realize just how slow it really is.

I've just disabled all trunking systems in my 436HP and am now scanning about 30 conventional analogue and digital channels. It takes 6 seconds to scan the 30 conventional channels and turning the squelch up to 15 and taking the antenna off makes no difference!

That's only about 5 channels per second.

If I only scan my aircraft favorites (7 channels), it takes about 1.5 seconds to scan only those few channels. And this is without any band switching going on.
 

AA6IO

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Tonight I decided to again compare my 436HP (ver. 1.03.00, reverted last week) directly with 396XT.
System for testing was LA Cities. If you check the RRDB, you will see that this is a mixture with a lot of high VHF analog, some UHF analog, and some UHF P25.

First, using RS center-coil antenna in house fully extended on both units. 436HP actually did fairly well, picking up most of the channels that the 396XT did. In some cases, the 396XT picked up some weak ones, where the 436HP went by them. But on most occasions, the 396XT and 436HP were fairly equal. Would still have to give the sensitivity edge to the 396XT. Scanning speed on 436HP kept up fairly well with the 396XT, but the 396XT seemed a bit faster.

Second, I used my MCA204M coupler to connect both the 436HP and 396XT to my outside 2/440 vertical on roof up 30 feet. Had not done this before, but in light of comments about squelch/external antennas, decided to do some testing for about an hour. No difference really between both radios with outside antenna. In fact, some of the weaker signals seemed to be louder on the 436HP. Both radios on the LA Cities basically performed the same on sensitivity, with many strong signals.
Then went over to Ventura County PD/FD with both radios on outside antenna. Distance from my house in Cerritos is about 75 miles. Very good signals on both radios and both picked up a number of different channels at about the same time. Many of the signals were strong at 4 bars.
Wx channels about the same on both radios, picking up 5 and at times 6 stations with outside antenna. Station in San Diego was 4 bars on both.
Where the 436HP was the clear winner was on the digital P25 stations. Decoding was, in general, much better than with the 396XT.
I would encourage some of you to do your own comparisons between your other radios and 436HP with outside antennas. If my situation is typical, then the VHF indeed is pretty good on the 436HP in certain scenarios.
I am following the discussion with regard to synthesizer phase noise and the different squelch settings. That may explain many of the findings in this discussion group.
Steve AA6IO
 
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