Best radio recommendation for hiking in the mountains? VX-6R?

[icestorm81]

@mmckenna

Thanks for your detailed feedback! I decided to go ahead with a ham radio.

Accessing repeaters can be handy if you are in range of one, it'll greatly increase your coverage, but they do not cover every inch of the country, especially out here in the west.

I will be doing more research on this but if you have any suggestions on how to find repeaters in any area then please let me know. I presume I will also have to set it up on my side.

Other option would be to get some MURS radios. These don't require you taking a test to get a license. You don't need to pay for a license, either. FCC calls it "License by Rule", which translates into "If you follow the rules, you are good to go".
MURS is only legal to use in the USA, but that doesn't sound like an issue for you.
It uses 5 VHF channels, and VHF tends to work well in more rugged terrain.
It's limited to 2 watts, but don't get hung up on that. Transmitter power output doesn't impact range as much as you would think. Very little difference between a 2 watt MURS radio and a 5-6 watt ham radio.
Benefit is that since there is no license required, you can hand them to anyone and you're good to go.

Icom makes some really nice MURS radios:

V3MR Multi-Use Radio Service (MURS) Transceiver - Features - Icom America

www.icomamerica.com

V10MR Multi-Use Radio Service (MURS) Transceiver - Features - Icom America

www.icomamerica.com

One other HUGE benefit to MURS:
The radios are simple to use. On/Off/Volume control and a channel selector. Channels are already programmed, so it is essentially a case of charging the batteries, turning the radios on, setting them all to the same channel, and you are done.

I already have a BCA Radio: BCA BC Link™ Two-Way Radio 2.0 | Backcountry Access

I presume BCA radio is similar to a V3MR or a V10MR. From a price perspective, BCA seems to be a bit more expensive. Here is the link that I had come across when researching best ways to communicate while mountaineering:

Icom Two Way Radios Summit Mt. Everest - News - Icom UK

Icom two way radios have sailed the ocean, flown the sky, and now they’ve climbed the highest peak on earth. In May, a climbing team led by Mountain Link, a Bend, Ore.-based mountaineering guide service, summited Mt. Everest with Icom radios in hand. At 29,035 feet in elevation, Mt. Everest is...

icomuk.co.uk

The other thread i came across was from this forum (i just noticed):

Radio for mountaineering

Hi everyone, I am a climber looking for a radio for mountaineering. Last year I was on Aconcagua and most teams were using radios for weather updates and logistics. This year I am going to climb Mont Blanc in France/Italy, Mount Elbrus in Russia, and a couple other peaks in Kosovo, Albania and...

forums.radioreference.com

ICOM support had also recommended V10MR and V3MR (license free) along with ID-52A and T10 (for HAM).

Agreed. BCA radio is quite easy to use. I would be running a test to see how the BCA radio performs against the VX-6R.

One of the biggest issues I see with many new users to ham radio is that it is really easy to bump the controls on a ham radio and end up not being able to communicate. The complexity of the ham radios is great if you are into the technical side of it, but its a pain in the rear when you just want to talk to someone. Fumbling around with tiny keys on a radio and trying to read an LCD screen in the bright sunlight will frustrate many users, and getting off into a corner of the radio where you can no longer communicate can be a safety risk.

It would be up to you to decide how much technical stuff you want to get involved in. Ham radio is great, but it's complex. It's designed that way for experimenters and enthusiasts. For someone who just wants to talk to another person, something like MURS can be a much better choice.

In my career, I have to set up a lot of radios for users that are not "radio people". I learned quickly to make sure the radios are set up as simply as possible. It makes for a much better user experience, and less trouble calls….


If tech is your thing and you really want to get into the hobby, then ham radio is a great option. It has a steep learning curve, and that is a problem for some. Nothing wrong with that, but the frustration it creates is something to consider.

Being able to talk to others via ham radio can be interesting for some. It's part of the hobby that many enjoy. From a high mountain, you could talk to others hundreds of miles away easily.

Not sure if the VX-6R has a lock feature but that maybe useful to prevent any accidental button press. The knobs would still be an issue but that is on BCA radio as well. I like tech so it will be fun to use and something new to learn.

The Yaesu's may be a good choice if that's the direction you want to go. Yaesu is a well respected company, and you'll get lots of good support. Their radios are pretty durable and will likely work well for what you want.

I had ordered Yaesu VX-6R (2 sets -- already received them; it was surprisingly a quick delivery). I had also considered FTD5 but was recommended VX-6R for its ruggedness. If you have any thoughts on VX-6R vs. FTD5 then please share. I could not find any comparisons between the two online.

Only other thing you'd want to consider is making sure you can keep the radios running if you are out for a long time. Charging batteries in the field can be hard to do. The more complex a radio is, the more power it will use, the more batteries it will eat. A radio with a dead battery doesn't do anyone any good. Carrying spare batteries is an option, but consider the additional weight. Solar chargers may let you charge a spare set while you are hiking. The Yaesu gives you the option of using AA alkaline cells in a separate battery case, which can be beneficial.

I am planning to order extra batteries for VX-6R. I see this as a positive since the BCA radio did not have the option to replace/swap a battery.

I am also going to order a diamond antenna: SRH-77CA and will be looking at other accessories as well. If you have any other suggestions for accessories then please let me know.

I mainly want to use it as a walkie talkie so if there are any good sources that you can recommend for learning then feel free to share them along with any other features you think i should look into for my use. I doubt if passing the technician test would help me to learn on how to use HAM radio along with all its features. I plan to look at the manual + online/youtube.

I believe i read somewhere that you have the option to remotely transmit to your partners radio...that sounds like a useful feature to have if it is possible.

These are the accessories listed on HRO page for VX-6R:

YAESU VX-6R

144 / 220 / 430 MHz 5 Watt / 1.5W (220) Hand Held FM Transceiver - JIS7 Submersible

www.hamradio.com

I think i will also get the manual and perhaps the programming SW / cable.

Also, since I'm sure someone will bring it up:
A lot of people get into amateur radio for "emergencies". The idea that you can raise someone from just about anywhere and get help.
That's certainly an option and does happen frequently.
Just keep in mind, ham radio is a hobby, and there is zero requirements that anyone be listening. There are zero requirements that even if someone is listening, that they'll help you out. You are dealing with hobbyists, not professionals.
The Garmin is the right device for your emergency needs. The radios are for the convenience, either MURS or ham.

Good to know but as you said Garmin is the right device for emergencies.

 

[iMONITOR]

If you go with one of the amateur radios like the VX-6R where/how you going to charge the proprietary battery pack? Make sure you get the optional "AA" battery pack.

 

[icestorm81]

There are a number of excellent points in the replies above:

1. Short range communication among the group.
2. Contacting others outside the area in an emergency.
3. Communicating for other purposes outside the area.

If everyone in your group wants to. get an amateur license then that would be good. If they don't GMRS would serve some of your needs. In an emergency both ham and GMRS are problematical due to limited range. Also, ham radio is a hobby not an emergency. radio service. If no one is listening you're are out of luck.

The Garmin is truly the best emergency method. It uses satellites an is accessible worldwide. You can activate your subscription when you need it and not pay monthly if you don't. My new iPhone has satellite capability too. Have not tried it yet but it helped a couple in the LA area who crashed in a deep canyon where normal cell service was not available.

Communicating outside the areas may be problematical. Unless there are mountain top repeaters you'l probably be out of luck using VHF or UHF. You could consider a portable HF radio, but the extra weight would be a problem. Batteries as well. Hard core ham stuff.

The VX-6R is not necessarily the best choice. Yes, it is rugged and water resistant. I have had one for years and it has served me well. You might consider the FT-5DR. Although it is a lot more expensive, it has built in GPS. In its digital mode it transmits your position automatically. Also it can do APRS at the same time as it transmits on another frequency. Great tools for the back country. Also, water resistant. I accidentally left one outside in the rain for several days. It was fine. By the way, with the accessory speaker/mic, it can send low res color images.

No single device will do everything you want.

By the way, ham is not an acronym. it's just ham, not HAM.

Appreciate your comments!

I did consider FT-5DR and was leaning towards it but was told by the Yaesu support that VX-6R would be the better choice mainly due to its ruggedness.

Great that you have used both VX-6R and FT-5DR. Can you please elaborate a bit more on the use case of the built in GPS? Would this help locate the members of the team so lets say if one of my partners is not responding over the radio, will i be able to locate him/her using the GPS?

I had to look up APRS and it sounds like essentially it is a way for you to transmit your location/GPS coordinates over radio so others can find you (and it sounds like you will have to setup your own servers to receive that info). The Garmin device i have GPSMAP 66i offers similar functionality where you can log your track and your friends/family can view it online of course with the difference that it is transmitted via satellite and Garmin has a nice interface/app to view/log your route.

If you can think of any other features which would set FT-5DR from VX-6R (and which would be useful in the backcountry) then plz share.

Also, do you have any stats on how long does the stock battery for VX-6R would last? I am deciding on how many extra batteries would make sense to carry or plan for depending on the trip.

 

[icestorm81]

Indeed, it would be interesting for the original poster to compare performance between an expensive MURS Radio (two-watt Icom) and his expensive FRS Radio (two-watt BCA).

Thanks for the idea. I do now plan to run a test between the BCA and the VX-6R. Will post the results. Nothing fancy or technical (like i have seen online) but simply see how far i can communicate with the two from my house and their quality. I think that should be a good enough test for my purposes.

Yes, it would be interesting to see the performance between the two.

 

[icestorm81]

@icestorm81 - The radio that would suit your parameters is the Icom IC-SAT 100. I have used them and they work well. Its use does not require your team to be licensed. You will need an account though to use the service and a view of the sky.

I think Sat 100 would definitely be a great option but the monthly fee is a deal breaker for me. I believe it is a minimum of $75 per month per device... Is that your understanding as well?

But then again the other con would be that it relies on iridium network so you will need a clear view of the sky for this to work so yep that definitely rules it out..at least for me.

 

[icestorm81]

If you go with one of the amateur radios like the VX-6R where/how you going to charge the proprietary battery pack? Make sure you get the optional "AA" battery pack.

Yeah, i read somewhere as that being one of the complaints about VX-6R where the battery can only be charged via the supplied adaptor for the radio.

AA battery pack is on the list of accessories + i am also thinking about getting spare batteries for the VX-6R (not cheap at $70/battery).

If you have any info on the performance of AA vs. stock battery pack then please share. Just wondering if it is better to have extra battery pack or carrying extra AA (energizer?) batteries.

 

[mmckenna]

I already have a BCA Radio: BCA BC Link™ Two-Way Radio 2.0 | Backcountry Access

I presume BCA radio is similar to a V3MR or a V10MR. From a price perspective, BCA seems to be a bit more expensive. Here is the link that I had come across when researching best ways to communicate while mountaineering

Icom Two Way Radios Summit Mt. Everest - News - Icom UK

Icom two way radios have sailed the ocean, flown the sky, and now they’ve climbed the highest peak on earth. In May, a climbing team led by Mountain Link, a Bend, Ore.-based mountaineering guide service, summited Mt. Everest with Icom radios in hand. At 29,035 feet in elevation, Mt. Everest is...

icomuk.co.uk

The other thread i came across was from this forum (i just noticed):

Radio for mountaineering

Hi everyone, I am a climber looking for a radio for mountaineering. Last year I was on Aconcagua and most teams were using radios for weather updates and logistics. This year I am going to climb Mont Blanc in France/Italy, Mount Elbrus in Russia, and a couple other peaks in Kosovo, Albania and...

forums.radioreference.com

ICOM support had also recommended V10MR and V3MR (license free) along with ID-52A and T10 (for HAM).

Agreed. BCA radio is quite easy to use. I would be running a test to see how the BCA radio performs against the VX-6R.

The BCA is an FRS radio, and not a good option for this sort of application. FRS has a few drawbacks:
Limited in power
Limited in antenna gain

Different bands perform in different ways. UHF, which FRS uses, is not always the best choice outdoors. MURS, on the other hand, uses VHF, and the longer wavelengths tend to do a bit better out where you will be. Plus, you can run better antennas on a MURS radio.

But, since you went with the ham radio route, you can easily use the 2 meter VHF band and get similar performance.

Good to know but as you said Garmin is the right device for emergencies.

Sometimes hams will try to avoid the right tools for the job, and assume that amateur radio is the solution to every problem.

It's not.

The Garmin is the right tool to have for what you are doing. When you need help in an emergency, you can try amateur radio, but no promises anyone will help. The garmin, on the other hand, will get you help from the right people.

 

[icestorm81]

The BCA is an FRS radio, and not a good option for this sort of application. FRS has a few drawbacks:
Limited in power
Limited in antenna gain

Different bands perform in different ways. UHF, which FRS uses, is not always the best choice outdoors. MURS, on the other hand, uses VHF, and the longer wavelengths tend to do a bit better out where you will be. Plus, you can run better antennas on a MURS radio.

But, since you went with the ham radio route, you can easily use the 2 meter VHF band and get similar performance.


Sometimes hams will try to avoid the right tools for the job, and assume that amateur radio is the solution to every problem.

It's not.

The Garmin is the right tool to have for what you are doing. When you need help in an emergency, you can try amateur radio, but no promises anyone will help. The garmin, on the other hand, will get you help from the right people.

Regarding bands, i plan to use UHF which i understand would be the better option for a mountainous terrain.

 

[mmckenna]

Regarding bands, i plan to use UHF which i understand would be the better option for a mountainous terrain.

Not really. VHF tends to work better, however, each situation is different. Having access to both is ideal.
UHF and higher frequencies are easier to block by terrain, and are better at building penetration.

 

[icestorm81]

Yeah, i read somewhere as that being one of the complaints about VX-6R where the battery can only be charged via the supplied adaptor for the radio.

AA battery pack is on the list of accessories + i am also thinking about getting spare batteries for the VX-6R (not cheap at $70/battery).

If you have any info on the performance of AA vs. stock battery pack then please share. Just wondering if it is better to have extra battery pack or carrying extra AA (energizer?) batteries.

I just found out that with the battery tray you can only receive and it will not allow you to transmit. That rules out the battery tray. Not sure why would that be and if it is a design limitation or intentional but that is a deal breaker for me. If you have a different understanding then let me know.

 

[icestorm81]

Not really. VHF tends to work better, however, each situation is different. Having access to both is ideal.
UHF and higher frequencies are easier to block by terrain, and are better at building penetration.

Interesting. Can you elaborate a bit more? It would be good for me to test out both UHF and VHF to see for myself but based on what i had read UHF would be better for my purpose .

Below is a video which seems to explain it in very simple terms. In open areas, VHF would be better but otherwise UHF is better. Do you disagree with this.. plz help me understand your view.

 

[icestorm81]

Here is the antenna i plan to buy: DIAMOND SRH320A

I understand this is the best option available for optimal reception/signal. If there are other suggestions then please share.

 

[icestorm81]

@ko6jw_2, i am deciding whether i should get the programming accessories for VX-6R. Can you share your comments/experience on what are the benefits of having that capability?

 

[mmckenna]

Below is a video which seems to explain it in very simple terms. In open areas, VHF would be better but otherwise UHF is better. Do you disagree with this.. plz help me understand your view.

In wide open spaces, they will probably be close enough to equal to not matter.
As they point out in the video, urban areas or inside buildings will benefit from higher frequencies. It's one reason why a lot of large public safety agencies in heavily urban areas will use 800MHz...

Longer wavelengths/lower frequencies will hug the ground a bit better and travel further in the hills. One reason that almost all wildland fire fighting communications happens on VHF.

The nice thing about amateur radio is that you can experiment yourself and try it out. Those radios will do both VHF and UHF, and your license will cover those amateur bands, so you can play to your hearts extent.

 

[mmckenna]

Here is the antenna i plan to buy: DIAMOND SRH320A

I understand this is the best option available for optimal reception/signal. If there are other suggestions then please share.

Should be just fine for what you are doing.
220MHz isn't very common, so while there are some 220MHz repeaters and users, you will find most of your usage will be 2 meter and 70cm. Ultimately you'll probably find your exact area of usage will even narrow that down to one band.

The tri-band antenna will work on all three bands. There are dual band versions of that antenna that are a bit longer that will give you better performance on VHF. I used one for years, and I'm pretty sure it was a Diamond.


As for accessories:
The stock antennas are not bad. They'll seal the antenna connection better than most after market antennas will. That may be important if you get into really wet weather, or frequent dunkings.

Usually one of the limiting factors with the antennas isn't the antenna itself, but the counterpoise created by the radio chassis. The smaller radios provide much less length to help the antenna, and holding the radio in your hand can help. Not a big deal, but something to think about.

If you are doing backpacking/hiking, I'd recommend a decent speaker mic. Bigger is better as the larger speaker will give better sound. The speaker mic will allow you to attach the radio to your pack. Getting the radio away from your body, and up as high as you can, will increase range. Your body will absorb RF, so carrying it on your belt or in a pocket, is less than ideal. Getting it on your pack fixes that, and will get the antenna higher up.

 

[vagrant]

I do not quite understand how you will not have a view of the sky, yet will have a view of the minimal horizon, in a mountainous terrain, unless you're sometimes in a tunnel, or cave system, which is a fair reason. Anyways, you have already noted that the monthly fee is a deal breaker, yet the device price is not, so let's move on from there.

If I was going to use UHF only and or VHF/UHF and the device price is not a problem I would use my XTS5000 in either VHF or UHF flavor, or more than likely my dual band APX7000xe. They are a bit of a brick though and offer more features than you may need, or want in weight, for hiking. It is also unfortunate you will not have a view of the sky as the Garmin 66i GPS will not function, nor would the GPS in Yaesu FT5DR radios which could provide you with distance and direction of the other radios when using the Fusion DN mode. You know, because "I'm over here" on a radio, in the woods, does not seem to work that well. You may already know this, but you should all carry whistles as well. No batteries, or GPS needed. Three blasts each time means you are in distress. (This is for others that may read this post as well)

If you have settled on the VX6R and UHF, I have found the Diamond SRH77CA performs very well on UHF and slightly better than the SRH320A. If you're not sure which of the three bands you will use, or may flip/flop depending on conditions, then go with the SRH320A.
* I should also point out that the best handheld antenna I have and use is mono band and telescoping. I don't use it while actually moving, but when stopped it is the king. Just use a hand mic in order to keep the radio/antenna vertical. Also, learn and teach others the importance of keeping your antennas vertical. The keywords to search for are polarization, antenna, dB loss and attenuation. Test this out on flat land before you even hike with someone who would be whatever distance away during the hike. This is probably the most important part of using a handheld radio. It will be rather evident going from vertical, 45°, to horizontal, when the other person keeps their antenna vertical.

As for batteries, just stick with the SBR40LI. The AA case more than likely offers reduced performance in the form of less watts, and operating lifespan due to the lower voltage. Check the VX6R manual for details. * Well I just checked the manual and the AA battery case only offers 300 or 50 mW output, so stick with the SBR40LI. (I only use the AA battery packs on my handhelds just for RX)

If you want to power and or charge the radios you could use the E-DC-6 cable and wire that to a lightweight (around 1 lb) 6A LiFePO4 battery. Those are relatively inexpensive compared to however many SBR40Li packs you would purchase. You could probably top-up the handhelds using that battery when you make camp, as most people are not constantly transmitting during a hike. Still, each radio having a backup SBR40Li battery would be prudent.

And finally...for hiking I carry a tiger tail, also known as a rat tail with my handhelds. These are odd names for what is just a counterpoise wire. It simply hangs from the radio, but I only use it when conditions are intermittent. Not only will it slightly improve your TX, but RX as well. It does not perform miracles, but it definitely helps. The cost for a bit of thin 22 gauge wire is worth the slightly improved performance when needed, or just let it hang if the radio is clipped to your backpack.

Have fun!

 

[KK6HRW]

If there is enough ‘view of the sky’ for the Garmin inReach 66i (satellite communicator) to function in an emergency, it can also send and receive routine messages to and from anyone else in your group who also has an inReach. Not as immediate as voice communication, but it will work over any distance, even if the parties are separated by high terrain.

 

[mmckenna]

If there is enough ‘view of the sky’ for the Garmin inReach 66i (satellite communicator) to function in an emergency, it can also send and receive routine messages to and from anyone else in your group who also has an inReach. Not as immediate as voice communication, but it will work over any distance, even if the parties are separated by high terrain.

True, but it's a pain in the butt typing out the messages each time you want to ask "where are you?".
A simple two way radio will do the trick much easier..

I use a Garmin device, and it's about $12/month. Small price to pay for what it provides.
A satellite two way radio, on the other hand, is going to be quite a bit more. That's getting into the area where if you are paying for a lot of time it is not getting used, it's a problem.

 

[icestorm81]

Should be just fine for what you are doing.
220MHz isn't very common, so while there are some 220MHz repeaters and users, you will find most of your usage will be 2 meter and 70cm. Ultimately you'll probably find your exact area of usage will even narrow that down to one band.

The tri-band antenna will work on all three bands. There are dual band versions of that antenna that are a bit longer that will give you better performance on VHF. I used one for years, and I'm pretty sure it was a Diamond.


As for accessories:
The stock antennas are not bad. They'll seal the antenna connection better than most after market antennas will. That may be important if you get into really wet weather, or frequent dunkings.

Usually one of the limiting factors with the antennas isn't the antenna itself, but the counterpoise created by the radio chassis. The smaller radios provide much less length to help the antenna, and holding the radio in your hand can help. Not a big deal, but something to think about.

If you are doing backpacking/hiking, I'd recommend a decent speaker mic. Bigger is better as the larger speaker will give better sound. The speaker mic will allow you to attach the radio to your pack. Getting the radio away from your body, and up as high as you can, will increase range. Your body will absorb RF, so carrying it on your belt or in a pocket, is less than ideal. Getting it on your pack fixes that, and will get the antenna higher up.

Yeah, i think may have to try stock antenna as well to see how it performs vs. aftermarket.

Interesting point about the "speaker mic" during backpacking/hiking and mounting it as high as possible. Will keep that in mind.

 

[mancow]

Welcome.

There's a lot of details you need to consider before purchasing any radio.

The #1 issue I see here is that you seem to be interested in purchasing an amateur (ham) radio, but talk about using FRS radios. You also posted this on the FRS/GMRS/MURS section.

The Yaesu radio, and just about any other ham radio on the market is design to be used ONLY on amateur radio frequencies. FRS and GMRS are not amateur radio frequencies.
The FCC requires type certification of radios used in almost all radio services -except- ham radio. FRS, GMRS And MURS radios require FCC Part 95 certification to be legal to use. The type certification ensures that the radio meets the requirements of the specific radio service it is intended for.

The Yaesu and other ham radios do NOT meet these requirements and do NOT have the necessary FCC type certification. They are not legal to use on FRS or GMRS (or any other radio service, except ham).

The ham radios will also not let you transmit on FRS/GMRS frequencies by design. You would be able to receive, but it won't let you transmit. You ~may~ hear some tell you that some radios can be modified to allow transmit on these bands. That violates the FCC rules, and doesn't resolve some of the other technical issues that would need to be addressed for it to work properly.

If all you need is FRS/GMRS, there are better radios on the market. A radio with a better antenna can help coverage a whole bunch.
If you need access to amateur radio systems, have an amateur radio license, and are looking for a suitable radio, you'd do better with a dedicated amateur radio.

Generally it comes down to figuring out exactly what you need and purchasing the correct radio. The Yaesu isn't the right one.

Give us some more details and we can help point you in the right direction.

My last ditch radio would be an aviation portable capable of 121.5.