Best Scanner for use in Philadelphia

[trentbob]

... I knew it was not generally correct to do the cross posting but in an effort to find a 325p2 and/or HP-2 in time to make this project more even handed and fair I hoped for a little latitude from you and appreciate your understanding... I do follow the guidelines as a rule... tomorrow was a day the 3 of us could do it so I tried my best to get the other 2 scanners involved in time... phillydjdan will be the one producing the audio and video, I've seen his work first hand and it will certainly be a professional review worthy of a spot on the equipment review forum (if all goes well)... thanks for your support and comments...

 

[phillydjdan]

Ok, so the audio and video clips have been recorded. What's the final verdict? Buy a Motorola! lol In all seriousness, the scanners all failed miserably in various conditions. While the video editing hasn't even begun yet, I can say all 3 of us agreed that the best performer in an LSM environment is the 436HP. The worst IMO is the 536HP, but I still have to go back and listen carefully to the audio samples. I'm going to warn everyone right now that the finished video might take some time. I recorded the video using a video camera and recorded audio using a laptop, so matching up the audio with the video is not going to be easy.

But in any event, you will see just how good or bad these scanners really are. That said, of all the models we had today and others I've handled in the past, the WS-1095 is a nice unit. The display is bright, and they put the speaker on the top of the unit instead of the bottom. GREAT IDEA.

The easiest to navigate in terms of scanlists/playlists/favorites is the 996P2. All we had to do was press a number key and the scan list is enabled/disabled. The Whistler/GRE units are runners up. A few button presses will get you where you want, so memorize your scanlists! The 536HP was absolutely horrible. We spent more time enabling the damn scanlists than we did recording audio from it. Uniden needs to go back to the drawing board and come up with something simpler.

Each and every unit suffered some degree of LSM distortion where we tested LSM systems. While we ran our official tests using a standard telescopic BNC back-of-set antenna, we experimented with a couple of aftermarket antennas just for S & G and they certainly helped. For 700/800 MHz, a 1" long stubby BNC antenna is probably your best bet. We tried 2 different types and got "decent" results.

The audio configuration tests I will have to review and get back to you. I will note that on one of our units (I think it was the 536HP), while using an audio cable in the headphone jack, we experienced a very loud buzzing sound while the scanner was scanning. The buzzing would only go away if there was activity. That's a big no-no for me, as I use most of my scanners for streaming using audio cables. It appeared to me that the 536HP and 996P2 both suffered some muddiness using the audio ports, but audio out of the internal speakers were okay.

More to come later.

 

[trentbob]

... great synopsis Dan... the 3 of us tried to make this a fair evaluation and as even handed as possible... our Bucks County test was much different than the Philly/ Camden experience... we were defiantly in "LSM ally" in that part of the city and right across the river from Camden's p2 system... as I said Dan... it's a lot of work... take your time and thanks for your great effort today...

 

[phillydjdan]

I just came to a realization. The laptop recorded incoming audio in VOX mode. That means the audio is not going to match up at all with the video of the scanners running. WOOPS!. So, in light of that, I think it's best to just do a video with the audio samples we recorded and not worry about the video of the scanner displays. I put together some samples already and have some clear differences.

 

[Septa3371CSX1]

Yeah we definitely had severe LSM issues by Delaware and Allegheny being right on the river and receiving multiple signals. My 668 had issues on both the Camden County and Philadelphia systems in that spot. The Pro 651 was not quite as bad. Bob's 436HP with the shorter 800 antenna definitely sounded the best out of all the scanners. It's amazing how the 436HP and 536HP are essentially the same thing yet handled stuff completely different. Too bad we didn't have enough time to do the moving test.

 

[trentbob]

... the nature of LSM is kinda bizarre... I use the 1095 throughout the city with few problems but in that area there were major problems with all scanners... because we need to use the radios in all areas of the city LSM is a MAJOR problem for scanner users in Philly... you will note that when Dan posts the result of professional commercial radio police/fire traffic at the same location... I also noted a lot of "junk" on the marine band that you were monitoring Joe as they are not PL tone protected... Dan... I agree about the lack of video and just doing audio results... it's no secret that the displays on the x36's are dim, we don't need to see it... my thread start in "equipment reviews" was never approved (to my knowledge) so I guess we go with "you tube"... can you use printed captions and make a video or just have it as an audio tape?... you know best... take your time...

 

[phillydjdan]

I have most of it done. There will be some text captions that tell you what you're hearing as you're hearing it. I am going to use the video clips from our internal speaker tests, so those will show the displays while the audio is playing. The external speaker and headphone tests will be audio-only. I am also adding at the end of the video the short clip we shot of the Motorola APX radio as a reference.

For those unaware, we did our Camden County and Philly tests in the parking lot at Allegheny and Delaware Avenues. While I initially thought this would provide a good place for signal, it ended up being quite the opposite, with very severe LSM distortion noted on both systems using all of our scanners. We could have moved, but we decided to use the location to demonstrate exactly how bad it can be for us in our city. Had we moved and tested in a good spot, that would not have been shown. It was a shame we ran out of time (and space on my camera's card) and couldn't do the moving tests. What I can say from experience is that the antenna you choose can help, and that in a stationary setup a yagi antenna is best. I have a BCD-996XT on the Philly system at my location in Delaware County and it comes in perfectly. If I switch it to an omni-directional antenna it is horrible. The only way to solve the LSM issue is to isolate the signal to a single tower.

As for audio quality, I have a few observations. First, we experienced severe popping at the beginning and end of a transmissions from the WS-1095 while using the external speaker jack and the PSR-800 using the headphone jack. What's worse is we noted severe buzzing when using the headphone jack on the 536HP and the 996P2. It went away only when there was channel activity.

On the 500 MHz Smartnet system we tested it was noted that the 536HP missed some transmissions that were very brief, like someone quickly saying "okay". While Bob and I are experienced with this system and know they said "okay", it's still worth mentioning that it did this.

We had lots of problems with the Philly Phase I system and the Camden County Phase II system. Every scanner had LSM issues, some worse than others. The 436HP was the best performer, with only slight LSM distortion noted. The 536HP was probably the worst, with entire conversations being missed. For reference, we monitored the same systems using Motorola radios at the same time, so we know conversations took place, but the scanners never stopped on them.

More notes to follow.

 

[buddrousa]

Bob Dan thankyou for taking the time to run these fair test and your fair remarks about all the scanners tested. The one thing that most sticks out to me is not all scanners are going to work the best in different areas and this test will help others find out what may be the best scanner for the area they live in. Also this is why I run a wide mix of scanners to monitor radio traffic. I have been looking at adding a 996P2 to my scanner stack so I can split up the state traffic as I live on the border of 2 very busy different Tn Highway Patrol districts. The one thing to remember the more scanners you use to break up busy systems the more you will hear.

 

[radio3353]

Gentlemen (you know who you are ,

Thank you for putting in the work doing this project. We are fortunate in the Philly area to have you guys as resources. I can't wait to see/hear the results when they are done.

One request - you made general comments on a few things like using a yagi and a 1" antenna. Would you provide specifics as to make and model numbers of those antennas? I just would like a starting point for further research. Also, what Motorola radio are you referencing? I would like to take a look at commercial radios as an alternative to the WS1095 and 996P2.

Thanks again for your work.

Bob

 

[phillydjdan]

Radio,

It will be mentioned in the video, but the stubby antennas used for testing were a Comet "Miracle Baby" 800 MHz (which TrentBob supplied) and an unknown brand 1" stubby "racing" antenna that I purchased from eBay. The other antenna, which was used for the majority of the testing is a standard telescoping BNC antenna that ships with all modern base/mobile Uniden scanners. It's the one with the 90 degree pivot point. For our tests we kept the antenna fully collapsed, but attempted to extend it when we were plagued with LSM distortion, which did not help.

The yagi I use at home is an unknown brand, but I got it from eBay new for about $35 and it has 3 elements. It doesn't have to be a yagi with added gain, you're not trying to pull in distant stations (well, unless you are lol), the object is to simply isolate signals from one direction.

I do not wish to go into too much detail about the commercial radios I use, but I will state very clearly right now that none of my commercial radios have the ability to transmit or affiliate on any trunked system for obvious reasons. If you want to discuss commercial options, PM me your e-mail address and we can go into further detail.

I should also add that although our results are specific to the 3 systems we tested here in the Philadelphia area, these tests can serve as a general rule for any similar system. While there may be some variations in your area due to location, terrain, etc, you can expect similar performance from these scanners on any Smartnet, Phase I or Phase II system. All of the Phase I and Phase II systems use LSM (CQPSK emmissions), so LSM will be an issue regardless of which county you are in. Our point was to show just how bad or good one was over the other.

The video is encoding as we speak, and I will upload it to YouTube as soon as it is done encoding. I will post the link here when it's up!

 

[buddrousa]

Motorola APX series radios are not going to be your bofang $100.00 radios. First you are going to have to have a system key to program this radio on this type system. Second programming this type radio is not like programming a scanner. Third this radio to work proper will have to tell the system it is on the system then the system administrator will see it and someone will not be happy. For these radios to work correctly they need to affiliate with the system.

 

[phillydjdan]

Budd, I don't know where you got that information, but is is not correct. My radios do not affiliate at all and they work just fine. I don't miss a single transmission. Please don't spread inaccurate info here.

 

[phillydjdan]

I should add though that programming a commercial radio is something that the typical scanner owner should not try. If you make a mistake, you CAN brick a radio. There are a few of us out here that know how to do it properly and I can say, personally, that I find adding systems to my radios very easy, although it is more involved than programming a scanner, for sure.

 

[radio3353]

Thanks Dan for the antenna info. I just ordered a Comet CH-32. Looks interesting. I enjoy playing with antennas. I will research yagis to improve reception of Philly. I am going to try that for now instead of looking into a commercial radio and dealing with programming. I barely get a signal from Philly on a ground plane mounted in the attic, maybe the yagi pointed to the far northeast or just beyond the border to isolate a Philly tower will help boost signal strength and reduce LSM problems.

Bob

 

[trentbob]

... just want to tell you Bob that the CH32 is hawked as a tri band antenna... I've had mine about 15 years... it picks up absolutely nothing on VHF or UHF but does a fair job on 800 if you're in a strong signal environment... the reason it worked better with LSM was it's poorer performance if that makes sense... the stubby I saw Dan use I have also... it's the Rat Shack racing antenna... 1 in. with the flat top made by GRE... it's a UHF antenna and again worked due to it's lesser abilities... keep in mind with the Philly/ Camden test even though things got choppy, transmission were missed or robotic we were in a 5 bar environment and probably close to or in the middle of several towers... a less sensitive antenna might be a help... the problem with that is as you travel around the city you might get in a poor signal area and the less sensitive antenna will miss transmissions... I agree with Dan that this is not isolated to our city like it may not happen anywhere else... I don't think this is a Philly problem... I think it's a national problem depending on environment, location and circumstances... not sure it will be an issue with Bucks County or not and I defer to Dan on that as he has a better grasp on it than I do...

 

[phillydjdan]

https://youtu.be/QfqP8VYw-M0.

Here's the video!

Bob, unfortunately Bucks will likely suffer the same LSM issues as Camden County, as they are the same type of system using the same emmissions (CQPSK).

 

[mikewazowski]

Third this radio to work proper will have to tell the system it is on the system then the system administrator will see it and someone will not be happy. For these radios to work correctly they need to affiliate with the system.

Budd, I don't know where you got that information, but is is not correct. My radios do not affiliate at all and they work just fine. I don't miss a single transmission. Please don't spread inaccurate info here.

I'll second Dan's statement. Budd's third claim is false.

 

[buddrousa]

Mike and the others not saying it will not work saying it will not work as well I was monitoring the TACN system Radio Techs made a change to a radio to have it affiliate with the best site after this was done he was clear and heard the system clear in his car. I know this was done OTA programming but a change was made to the radio on how it handled the multisite systems.
Trunked systems use a control channel, so the radio is required to register with the network and then affiliate its group association. In addition, since many trunked systems have multiple repeater sites, system access requires the use of a wide area communications network identification, or WACN ID, and the use of a system identification, or SYS ID.
How to test a Project 25 system | P25 content from Urgent Communications

 

[phillydjdan]

Buddy, I will PM you later because I have some questions, but I don't want to continue an off-topic discussion here. I want to keep this about scanners and which one is best for Philly.

 

[trentbob]

... I've already thanked you Dan on your private mail but on behalf of the RR community I want to thank you for your hard work here... you, Joe and I were in the hot sun, on our feet for 6 hours straight doing this... then you turned it around a lot faster than I thought... good job... the name of this thread should be "the best radio for Philly"... where was the R&D with both companies here?... we deserve better for our hard earned money...