Cap+ LCNs & LSNs

Status
Not open for further replies.

CanesFan95

Active Member
Joined
Feb 14, 2008
Messages
3,011
Location
FL
If DSD+ shows a Capacity Plus frequency as Ch. 1 & 2, or as Ch. 3 & 4, how do we translate that into the right LCN & LSN. For example, I have a local frequency of 451.9750 that DSD+ shows as the Ch. 3 & 4 frequency. The frequency is part of this system:

BCI Communications (Tampa Capacity Plus).

When you click on the Site 1 hyperlink and look at the Site Frequency Table, it shows 451.9750 as LCN 3 and LSN 5 & 6. But if DSD+ is showing this frequency as Ch. 3 & 4, then shouldn't the LCN be 2 and LSNs be 3 and 4?
 

CanesFan95

Active Member
Joined
Feb 14, 2008
Messages
3,011
Location
FL
Similar question with 452.975 on this system. The Site Frequency Table shows it as LCN 5 and LSN 9 & 10. But DSD+ shows it as Ch. 5 & 6.
 

CanesFan95

Active Member
Joined
Feb 14, 2008
Messages
3,011
Location
FL
Now let's look at another Capacity Plus system in the same county that has only 2 RF frequencies:

Renaissance Tampa Hotel International Plaza.

There's only 2 RF frequencies, but each one is listed twice for a total of 4 LCNs. When you click on the Site 1 Hotel hyperlink, the Site Frequency Table has 8 rows which seems wrong to me. Each individual RF frequency can only have 2 slots. So how come each RF frequency is listed 4 times with 4 LSNs and 2 different LCNs? The other system I posted above has each RF frequency only listed twice in the Site Frequency Table.

DSD+ shows 461.350 as the Ch. 1 & 2 frequency, and 464.075 is the Ch. 3 & 4.
 

mtindor

OH/WV DB Admin
Database Admin
Joined
Dec 5, 2006
Messages
10,368
Location
Carroll Co OH / EN90LN
If you wait for actual voice calls to occur on a Cap+ frequency, then it will state specifically what LCN it is.
Now let's look at another Capacity Plus system in the same county that has only 2 RF frequencies:

Renaissance Tampa Hotel International Plaza.

There's only 2 RF frequencies, but each one is listed twice for a total of 4 LCNs. When you click on the Site 1 Hotel hyperlink, the Site Frequency Table has 8 rows which seems wrong to me. Each individual RF frequency can only have 2 slots. So how come each RF frequency is listed 4 times with 4 LSNs and 2 different LCNs? The other system I posted above has each RF frequency only listed twice in the Site Frequency Table.

DSD+ shows 461.350 as the Ch. 1 & 2 frequency, and 464.075 is the Ch. 3 & 4.

The admin didn't add it correct. Submit an update.

Mike
 

mtindor

OH/WV DB Admin
Database Admin
Joined
Dec 5, 2006
Messages
10,368
Location
Carroll Co OH / EN90LN
If DSD+ shows a Capacity Plus frequency as Ch. 1 & 2, or as Ch. 3 & 4, how do we translate that into the right LCN & LSN. For example, I have a local frequency of 451.9750 that DSD+ shows as the Ch. 3 & 4 frequency. The frequency is part of this system:

BCI Communications (Tampa Capacity Plus).

When you click on the Site 1 hyperlink and look at the Site Frequency Table, it shows 451.9750 as LCN 3 and LSN 5 & 6. But if DSD+ is showing this frequency as Ch. 3 & 4, then shouldn't the LCN be 2 and LSNs be 3 and 4?

Are you looking at the Channel Activity window or the Event window? In the Event Window, if the Cap+ frequency you are monitoring has voice comms, you should eventually see this (just an example):

2018/12/24 18:40:35 464.575000 is first Cap+ repeater (Ch1 and Ch2)

Based upon the entry above,l of course 464.575 would be LCN 1 (LSN1/2 or CH1/2). That entry above was taken out of the acutal DSDPlus.Event log. If you see it in the actual Event Log graphical window it might be presented a little different.

The key is that you don't want to rely upon just what you see in the Channel Activity window. If you wait for the Cap+ frequency to have voice comms on it so that it actually says "###.###### is the ____ Cap+ repeater (Ch# and CH#)", then you know definitely what the LCN/LSNs are. If you go by just what you see in the Channel Activity window, you may come to a wrong conclusion based upon the rest channel jumping around.

So, if in the DSDPlus.Event file or the DSDPlus Event Log window you see:

451.975000 is the second Cap+ repeater (Ch3 and Ch4)

Then you know that 451.975 is LCN 2 and you should submit that update to the DB. And if there is already an LCN to listed for that system in the database, whomever added the system probably never added verified LCNs (happens all the time) and you'll want to request in your submission that an admin mark the other frequency(s) with bogus LCNs (perhaps in the 90s) until you have a chance to verify the other LCNs and submit them.

Mike
 

mtindor

OH/WV DB Admin
Database Admin
Joined
Dec 5, 2006
Messages
10,368
Location
Carroll Co OH / EN90LN
When you click on the Site 1 hyperlink and look at the Site Frequency Table, it shows 451.9750 as LCN 3 and LSN 5 & 6. But if DSD+ is showing this frequency as Ch. 3 & 4, then shouldn't the LCN be 2 and LSNs be 3 and 4?

Yes, assuming you are seeing DSDPlus report the actual LCN/LSNs in the Event Log window like this:

451.975000 is the second Cap+ repeater (Ch3 and Ch4).

The way you are determining LCN/LSN is right. It just so happens that the DB is wrong. You'll find this to be the case very often in DMR Cap+/Con+ entries in the DB. Some admins add new sites without any sort of confirmation of LCN order or color code. Works fine for people with Whistler scanners that don't actually trunk track, but is not at all useful for Uniden scanners since Uniden scanners require the actual proper trunking information in order to be able to trunktrack.

Persevere. Trust that your efforts and submissions are appreciated by more people than those that might actually say "thank you." I thank you for investigating these things and making submissions to correct things.

Mike
 

mtindor

OH/WV DB Admin
Database Admin
Joined
Dec 5, 2006
Messages
10,368
Location
Carroll Co OH / EN90LN
Similar question with 452.975 on this system. The Site Frequency Table shows it as LCN 5 and LSN 9 & 10. But DSD+ shows it as Ch. 5 & 6.

If DSDPlus says "452.975000 is the third Cap+ repeater (Ch5 and Ch6), then you have found LCN 3. Please submit that update as well.

Mike
 

CanesFan95

Active Member
Joined
Feb 14, 2008
Messages
3,011
Location
FL
I'm looking at the Event Log while conventionally tuned to 452.975 with just 1 dongle:

31513226147_d0054afda7_o.png


So does this mean this frequency would be what RadioReference refers to as "LSN 5" and "LSN 6"? And the LCN would be 3? I believe LCN stands for Logical Channel Number, but I don't know what "LSN" means. I just wanna make sure I understand how to translate DSD+ into RadioReference vernacular before submitting any corrections.
 

CanesFan95

Active Member
Joined
Feb 14, 2008
Messages
3,011
Location
FL
My understanding is that Capacity Plus systems can have up to 8 RF frequencies per site. So with 2 slots per RF frequency, you have up to 16 voice paths. I believe each of those voice paths is what DSD+ refers to as a "Ch", as in "Ch 5 and Ch 6" above. I suspect these 16 voice paths or "Ch"s are what RadioReference calls "LSN"s. Right or wrong?

And then there's the issue of also translating all this into programming an actual scanner. Here's a screenshot of ProScan on a BCD996P2:

32580636698_9f479bee3b_b.jpg


(This system has a new frequency that I just found that'll I'll also be submitting soon.) I believe what the scanner / ProScan refer to as an "LCN" in the LCN column is the same as 1 of the 8 RF frequencies maximum that (I believe) a Capacity Plus system can have, which is also the same as what RadioReference also calls an "LCN"?
 
Last edited by a moderator:

mtindor

OH/WV DB Admin
Database Admin
Joined
Dec 5, 2006
Messages
10,368
Location
Carroll Co OH / EN90LN
I'm looking at the Event Log while conventionally tuned to 452.975 with just 1 dongle:

31513226147_d0054afda7_o.png


So does this mean this frequency would be what RadioReference refers to as "LSN 5" and "LSN 6"? And the LCN would be 3? I believe LCN stands for Logical Channel Number, but I don't know what "LSN" means. I just wanna make sure I understand how to translate DSD+ into RadioReference vernacular before submitting any corrections.

Yes, that is what it means. What an RR admin needs to know is ONLY the LCN -- don't even mention the LSNs / Ch#s. When an admin plugs the LCN into the backend, the backend automatically breaks it out into LSNs.

Ch1 / Ch2 = LSN 1 / LSN 2 = LCN 1
Ch3 / Ch4 = LSN 3 / LSN 4 = LCN 2
Ch5 / Ch6 = LSN 5 / LSN 6 = LCN 3
etc
etc

As far as submitting anything to the DB, just submit LCNs and color codes, confirmed ones of course.

So you have:

451.975 LCN 2 (Ch3 / Ch4 aka LSN 3 / LSN 4), Color Code ? (I don't know if it's also color code 5 or not)
452.975, LCN 3, (Ch5 / Ch6 aka LSN 5 / LSN 6), Color Code 5

Submit those freq/LCN/color codes to the DB when you have time, please. Rinse/repeat for every system you find info for.

And, just as a sidenote. It is always wise, when you switch frequencies, to his "d" in DSDPlus so that it disregards all actively stored information about the previously monitored frequency. Otherwise you could be monitoring one frequency and it shows Cap+ DCC:5, tune to another frequency and have a short burst and then think it is also Cap+ DCC:5 when in fact it's something totally different that you just haven't pulled in yet. If you use "d" after switching frequencies, you significantly reduce the chance of logging erroneous data with your eyes.
 
Last edited:

mtindor

OH/WV DB Admin
Database Admin
Joined
Dec 5, 2006
Messages
10,368
Location
Carroll Co OH / EN90LN
My understanding is that Capacity Plus systems can have up to 8 RF frequencies per site. So with 2 slots per RF frequency, you have up to 16 voice paths. I believe each of those voice paths is what DSD+ refers to as a "Ch", as in "Ch 5 and Ch 6" above. I suspect these 16 voice paths or "Ch"s are what RadioReference calls "LSN"s. Right or wrong?

And then there's the issue of also translating all this into programming an actual scanner. Here's a screenshot of ProScan on a BCD996P2:

32580636698_9f479bee3b_b.jpg


(This system has a new frequency that I just found that'll I'll also be submitting soon.) I believe what the scanner / ProScan refer to as an "LCN" in the LCN column is the same as 1 of the 8 RF frequencies maximum that (I believe) a Capacity Plus system can have, which is also the same as what RadioReference also calls an "LCN?

Yes - Timeslots = Ch's = LSNs. Two timeslots per frequency (LCN).

Mike
 

mtindor

OH/WV DB Admin
Database Admin
Joined
Dec 5, 2006
Messages
10,368
Location
Carroll Co OH / EN90LN
Scanners need LCNs (not LSNs / ch#s / timeslots). DSDPlus needs LSNs (but only the odd or even). DMR Radios likely need timeslot info.

For scanners you only need (a) frequency, (b) LCN, (c) color code for each frequency in a trunked DMR system.
 

CanesFan95

Active Member
Joined
Feb 14, 2008
Messages
3,011
Location
FL
Oh, yes, believe me. I know how important 'd' is on DSD+. I hit that hot key all the time, especially when searching around for new frequencies with a discriminator tap. So, good. Now I know the RadioReference format. I'll go ahead and submit some database corrections soon.
 

CanesFan95

Active Member
Joined
Feb 14, 2008
Messages
3,011
Location
FL
Scanners need LCNs (not LSNs / ch#s / timeslots). DSDPlus needs LSNs (but only the odd or even). DMR Radios likely need timeslot info.

For scanners you only need (a) frequency, (b) LCN, (c) color code for each frequency in a trunked DMR system.

MotoTRBO CPS software calls each of the 16 voice paths / LSNs "IDs" which consists of "Members" in your "Voice List", with the available RF frequencies coming from your "Channel Pool", to make things even more confusing:

46402795622_ee61975299_o.png
 
Last edited by a moderator:

mtindor

OH/WV DB Admin
Database Admin
Joined
Dec 5, 2006
Messages
10,368
Location
Carroll Co OH / EN90LN
MotoTRBO CPS software calls each of the 16 voice paths / LSNs "IDs" which consists of "Members" in your "Voice List", with the RF frequencies coming from your "Channel Pool", to make things even more confusing:

46402795622_ee61975299_o.png

And that explains why my cheap chinese DMR handheld has sat in the closet from the day it was delivered a few years ago :)
 

CanesFan95

Active Member
Joined
Feb 14, 2008
Messages
3,011
Location
FL
The Chinese radios don't do trunking like the Motorolas. So you can only do conventional and in that case you only tell it either slot 1 or 2 on the one RF frequency that you program at a time, plus the color code and TGID (so no LCNs, LSNs, bla bla bla).
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top