Change Coming.

[Trbogeek]

More and more PD, Fire, DPW, moving to Saianet, it seems. With Their area coverage, it would make sense from an interoperable standpoint, as well as system fault tolerance, console integration, agencies/municipalities, not needing to maintain systems, Saianet would be a very viable option. No other agency, manisipality, competive dealer, can match their coverage, system performance, it seems. Wold be an easy move, one would think.

 

[ak716]

More and more PD, Fire, DPW, moving to Saianet, it seems. With Their area coverage, it would make sense from an interoperable standpoint, as well as system fault tolerance, console integration, agencies/municipalities, not needing to maintain systems, Saianet would be a very viable option. No other agency, manisipality, competive dealer, can match their coverage, system performance, it seems. Wold be an easy move, one would think.

Facts! The only other “game in town” has a three site, limited capacity system. Their only upside I see is you could run a NX-5300 on it, achieving direct interoperability to a P25 system or frequency. Regardless, those points are why I had a similar conversation with one of those entities that it’s a viable option to pursue.

 

[Trbogeek]

Facts! The only other “game in town” has a three site, limited capacity system. Their only upside I see is you could run a NX-5300 on it, achieving direct interoperability to a P25 system or frequency. Regardless, those points are why I had a similar conversation with one of those entities that it’s a viable option to pursue.

The NX 5300, can be P25, and DMR III. Can buy with P25 grant $, have DMR key in it, run on SaiaNet (Gen 5).

 

[k2hz]

More and more PD, Fire, DPW, moving to Saianet, it seems. With Their area coverage, it would make sense from an interoperable standpoint, as well as system fault tolerance, console integration, agencies/municipalities, not needing to maintain systems, Saianet would be a very viable option. No other agency, manisipality, competive dealer, can match their coverage, system performance, it seems. Wold be an easy move, one would think.

Given the lack of any countywide interoperable system infrastructure in Erie county and no apparent plans for such a system it certainly makes sense for municipalities to look at a well established commercial system with solid coverage in the County and adjacent areas.

Municipal use could be either as their primary communications or secondary use for interoperability. Use of radios also P25 capable would be desirable.

The present patchwork of individual agencies each doing their own thing on various bands and modes makes no sense.

 

[ak716]

Given the lack of any countywide interoperable system infrastructure in Erie county and no apparent plans for such a system it certainly makes sense for municipalities to look at a well established commercial system with solid coverage in the County and adjacent areas.

Municipal use could be either as their primary communications or secondary use for interoperability. Use of radios also P25 capable would be desirable.

The present patchwork of individual agencies each doing their own thing on various bands and modes makes no sense.

Their answer for years, and still is, analog interop channels, some repeated, some simplex.

 

[Trbogeek]

Given the lack of any countywide interoperable system infrastructure in Erie county and no apparent plans for such a system it certainly makes sense for municipalities to look at a well established commercial system with solid coverage in the County and adjacent areas.

Municipal use could be either as their primary communications or secondary use for interoperability. Use of radios also P25 capable would be desirable.

The present patchwork of individual agencies each doing their own thing on various bands and modes makes no sense.

Interoperability between agencies is accomplished using Erie Co Wide PD, FD, and EMS, tied to trunk talkgroups. That way, each agency doesn't leave the system, has continued communications with their dispatch, and other agencies. Encryption available, if needed. GPS tracking, dedicated emergency/man down channels, etc., with dispatch consoles directly connected to the system, not relying on public infrastructure. No county system, even the state, offers this, at a fraction of the construction cost. 24/7 service/responce highly fault tolerant. Seems a public saftey natural transition.

 

[tdave365]

The purpose of those channels being "linked" to the SaiaNet system is to facilitate interoperability between users of SaiaNet onto "those" channels.

Thanks you for the detailed explanation - that makes sense (though, I wonder is all of that complexity to merely monitor or interact when needed, it seems a lot to just be able hear BPD -- why not use a scanner like us and save the $$$ if the only the former?).

Question: Is this what defines the sort of simulcast system that some most scanners cannot deal with well, or is there a more precise definition of that? Or maybe just to get to the point: Does Buffalo's P25 system operate using the sort of simulcast system that inherently causes reception problems?

The reason I was here at RR this past weekend is that I am contemplating the purchase of the SDS100 which I understand deals with these simulcasted systems much better, resulting in superior audio output of digital systems. But I am not sure that BPD or local public safety operates in the same context. I'm not sure an SDS100 in Buffalo, aside from what other benefits it may have, will actually "fix" the low quality diction I currently experience on my PRO-652.

 

[lkas]

Thanks you for the detailed explanation - that makes sense (though, I wonder is all of that complexity to merely monitor or interact when needed, it seems a lot to just be able hear BPD -- why not use a scanner like us and save the $$$ if the only the former?).

Question: Is this what defines the sort of simulcast system that some most scanners cannot deal with well, or is there a more precise definition of that? Or maybe just to get to the point: Does Buffalo's P25 system operate using the sort of simulcast system that inherently causes reception problems?

The reason I was here at RR this past weekend is that I am contemplating the purchase of the SDS100 which I understand deals with these simulcasted systems much better, resulting in superior audio output of digital systems. But I am not sure that BPD or local public safety operates in the same context. I'm not sure an SDS100 in Buffalo, aside from what other benefits it may have, will actually "fix" the low quality diction I currently experience on my PRO-652.

buffalo PD is P25 but not simulcast. All the counties around Erie county for the most part are simulcast. In it simplist terms for instance genesee cty is simulcast. So, the through 5 or 6 or 7 towers around the county. When someone in the dept talks on the radio it transmits from all those towers so they technically have great coverage in the county. The problem is most scanners receive 1,2,3,4, or so of the towers. The scanner lets says picks up 3 towers. Well, the scanner is now receiving the same transmission on the same frequency from 3 different towers. Those 3 signals come into the scanner just a hair second apart. Now the scanner is garbled with 3 transmissions and it is hard to hear. The sds100 fixes this issue so you can here. Buffalo pd is p25 digital but just transmit off one tower (in lamants terms) so any p25 scanner will pick it up with not issues. I have a sds100. I can hear simulcast on Niagara cty, Genesee, orleans, Cattaraugus and Chatauqua county. I can prretty much receieve all of western NY and canada. The sds100 is in my opinion the top handheld scanner out there which is why it is $650. However, it is worth it as the future is coming and this will handle it

 

[Trbogeek]

Thanks you for the detailed explanation - that makes sense (though, I wonder is all of that complexity to merely monitor or interact when needed, it seems a lot to just be able hear BPD -- why not use a scanner like us and save the $$$ if the only the former?).

Those on the trunk system, with these talkgroups, like BPD, have the abolity to talk to them also, on the same radio, opposed to needing two radios, or a scanner on ones belt.

Question: Is this what defines the sort of simulcast system that some most scanners cannot deal with well, or is there a more precise definition of that? Or maybe just to get to the point: Does Buffalo's P25 system operate using the sort of simulcast system that inherently causes reception problems?

Trunking and Simulcast are two different formats, although Simulcast trunking does exist, it will only confuse this conversation. Simulcast isn't a problem, if well designed, and if the receivers have "scrubber" circuits to help with inherent phasing. Scanners, pagers, low end receivers tend not to have these circuits, and can suffer from what sounds like noise in the transmission.

The reason I was here at RR this past weekend is that I am contemplating the purchase of the SDS100 which I understand deals with these simulcasted systems much better, resulting in superior audio output of digital systems. But I am not sure that BPD or local public safety operates in the same context. I'm not sure an SDS100 in Buffalo, aside from what other benefits it may have, will actually "fix" the low quality diction I currently experience on my PRO-652.

I can't speak to which scanner is better than another, but Buffalo PD is P25 simulcast, and prone to what I mentioned above.

 

[Trbogeek]

buffalo PD is P25 but not simulcast. All the counties around Erie county for the most part are simulcast. In it simplist terms for instance genesee cty is simulcast. So, the through 5 or 6 or 7 towers around the county. When someone in the dept talks on the radio it transmits from all those towers so they technically have great coverage in the county. The problem is most scanners receive 1,2,3,4, or so of the towers. The scanner lets says picks up 3 towers. Well, the scanner is now receiving the same transmission on the same frequency from 3 different towers. Those 3 signals come into the scanner just a hair second apart. Now the scanner is garbled with 3 transmissions and it is hard to hear. The sds100 fixes this issue so you can here. Buffalo pd is p25 digital but just transmit off one tower (in lamants terms) so any p25 scanner will pick it up with not issues. I have a sds100. I can hear simulcast on Niagara cty, Genesee, orleans, Cattaraugus and Chatauqua county. I can prretty much receieve all of western NY and canada. The sds100 is in my opinion the top handheld scanner out there which is why it is $650. However, it is worth it as the future is coming and this will handle it

Buffalo is P25 Simulcast (Two sites), the surrounding counties, Erie not included, are trunked. Simulcast transmits on the same frequency at multiple sites, trunking transmits from multiple sites, but on different frequencies.

 

[k2hz]

Buffalo is P25 Simulcast (Two sites), the surrounding counties, Erie not included, are trunked. Simulcast transmits on the same frequency at multiple sites, trunking transmits from multiple sites, but on different frequencies.

I have found that conventional P25 simulcast is less of a problem for scanners than trunked. While the conventional simulcast may cause some audio distortion in a scanner the distortion of the control channel data in trunking causes failure to track and major signal breakup. It may also be that conventional simulcast usually involves fewer towers so less overlap in received signals.

 

[Wackyracer]

Thanks you for the detailed explanation - that makes sense (though, I wonder is all of that complexity to merely monitor or interact when needed, it seems a lot to just be able hear BPD -- why not use a scanner like us and save the $$$ if the only the former?).

Question: Is this what defines the sort of simulcast system that some most scanners cannot deal with well, or is there a more precise definition of that? Or maybe just to get to the point: Does Buffalo's P25 system operate using the sort of simulcast system that inherently causes reception problems?

The reason I was here at RR this past weekend is that I am contemplating the purchase of the SDS100 which I understand deals with these simulcasted systems much better, resulting in superior audio output of digital systems. But I am not sure that BPD or local public safety operates in the same context. I'm not sure an SDS100 in Buffalo, aside from what other benefits it may have, will actually "fix" the low quality diction I currently experience on my PRO-652.

Buffalo PD does not transmit on a multicasting system aka: Simulcast...However.....they do have channels simultaneously re-transmitting on Saia net simulcast system, BPD can still be picked up on the analog P25 systems with a a scanner that doesn't cost as much as a Uniden sds series. Now if you want to listen to Niagara county or Catt or Chautauqua then SDS100 get the job done on their P25 simulcast systems

 

[GTR8000]

I have found that conventional P25 simulcast is less of a problem for scanners than trunked. While the conventional simulcast may cause some audio distortion in a scanner the distortion of the control channel data in trunking causes failure to track and major signal breakup. It may also be that conventional simulcast usually involves fewer towers so less overlap in received signals.

The difference is that most P25 trunked systems employ some form of QPSK modulation (LSM, H-DQPSK, etc.), which is what the scanners have a tough time with. The majority of P25 conventional simulcasts use C4FM modulation. Although there are some conventional P25 simulcasts out there that use LSM, it's not very common.

 

[Trbogeek]

Buffalo PD does not transmit on a multicasting system aka: Simulcast...However.....they do have channels simultaneously re-transmitting on Saia net simulcast system, BPD can still be picked up on the analog P25 systems with a a scanner that doesn't cost as much as a Uniden sds series. Now if you want to listen to Niagara county or Catt or Chautauqua then SDS100 get the job done on their P25 simulcast systems

I'm not even sure where to start here.

BPD transmits five channels, over two sites (City Hall, Delaware Park), with additional RX only voted sites, P25 phase 1.
Analog P25 doesn't exist.
Niagara, Cattaraugus, Chautauqua Counties, all run P25 Phase 2 (trunking), not simulcast.

I'll let this sit here and ferment....

 

[GTR8000]

...the surrounding counties, Erie not included, are trunked. Simulcast transmits on the same frequency at multiple sites, trunking transmits from multiple sites, but on different frequencies.

Niagara, Cattaraugus, Chautauqua Counties, all run P25 Phase 2 (trunking), not simulcast.

Now it's your turn lol. Those P25 trunked systems are indeed simulcast. They employ multiple subsites, all of which transmit on the same set of frequencies simultaneously, i.e. simulcast.

I think perhaps you're too used to DMR, where each site uses a unique set of frequencies even if they're carrying the same talkgroup traffic. With P25 simulcast systems, each physical site (i.e. subsite) uses the same set of frequencies.

 

[lkas]

I'm not even sure where to start here.

BPD transmits five channels, over two sites (City Hall, Delaware Park), with additional RX only voted sites, P25 phase 1.
Analog P25 doesn't exist.
Niagara, Cattaraugus, Chautauqua Counties, all run P25 Phase 2 (trunking), not simulcast.

I'll let this sit here and ferment....

System Name:	Cattaraugus County Public Safety
Location:	Cattaraugus County, NY
County:	Cattaraugus
System Type:	Project 25 Phase I
System Voice:	APCO-25 Common Air Interface Exclusive
System ID:	Sysid: 892 WACN: BEE00
Last Updated:	June 14, 2022, 5:24 am CDT [Added P25 CH ID Table [892]]

Sites and Frequencies
Red (c) are control channel capable frequencies

RFSS	Site	Name	Freqs
1 (1)	001 (1)	Simulcast	154.370c	154.725c	154.8825c	155.700c	159.405

It says "simulcast", it also says P25 phase 1

 

[GTR8000]

This thread is quickly going off the rails. Let's try to stay on the original topic, please.

 

[Trbogeek]

Now it's your turn lol. Those P25 trunked systems are indeed simulcast. They employ multiple subsites, all of which transmit on the same set of frequencies simultaneously, i.e. simulcast.

I think perhaps you're too used to DMR, where each site uses a unique set of frequencies even if they're carrying the same talkgroup traffic. With P25 simulcast systems, each physical site (i.e. subsite) uses the same set of frequencies.

I mis-spoke about the Phase 2 trunking. It can be Trunked/simulcast. The issue was how "jargen" is thrown around, and what it really means. It seems there is much confusion about trunking, P25 pase 1 and 2, the effects of phasing, reciver capture, etc,.

DMR also can run trunked simulcast. Selex does it. The problem with Trunked Simulcast is the spectral loading, as you have to bring up all sites, even is there is no radio registered to that particular site. A trunk site is a trunk site, no matter what channels are there. Forcing a system to be simulcast, quickly ties your hands, as now each site needs to have the same amount of resources vs adding a resource to a site that need loading relief. Having to add a channel to every site, because one corner of a county needs resources, gets expensive fast. Chautauqua Co: Adding a single repeater, combining, (assuming you can find a VHF split that fits current combining/multi coupling requirements not to mention Canadian clearance) would, and will be, a legalistic nightmare, just to add a channel because of loading in Dunkirk. Same with Niagara Co. Adding channel(s) to Middleport, because of NF loading. If you have limited licensing, Simulcast helps, but quickly becomes a problem, when expansion is needed.

 

[Trbogeek]

System Name:	Cattaraugus County Public Safety
Location:	Cattaraugus County, NY
County:	Cattaraugus
System Type:	Project 25 Phase I
System Voice:	APCO-25 Common Air Interface Exclusive
System ID:	Sysid: 892 WACN: BEE00
Last Updated:	June 14, 2022, 5:24 am CDT [Added P25 CH ID Table [892]]

Sites and Frequencies
Red (c) are control channel capable frequencies

RFSS	Site	Name	Freqs
1 (1)	001 (1)	Simulcast	154.370c	154.725c	154.8825c	155.700c	159.405

It says "simulcast", it also says P25 phase 1

One site Simulcast, Phase 1 trunking. To my point. Too much jargon, that frankly is inaccurate. Time to step back, let those more knowledgeable, carry on.

 

[GTR8000]

I mis-spoke about the Phase 2 trunking. It can be Trunked/simulcast. The issue was how "jargen" is thrown around, and what it really means. It seems there is much confusion about trunking, P25 pase 1 and 2, the effects of phasing, reciver capture, etc,.

Let's be clear here...both P25 Phase I (FDMA) and Phase II (TDMA) trunking can be simulcast, and quite often are. Nothing unusual about P25 simulcast cells, they are extremely common these days.

One site Simulcast, Phase 1 trunking. To my point. Too much jargon, that frankly is inaccurate.

I'm not sure what you consider inaccurate here. When you say "one site simulcast", yes...it's one virtual site. A simulcast cell is considered a single site in the P25 system controller, as all physical sites that make up the simulcast cell (known as subsites) are all operating on the same set of frequencies. It's not one single site, which is what it seems you're implying. Take a look at the mapping of the simulcast cell for any of the nearby counties, and you'll quickly see that the "one site" is really quite a few that make up the one simulcast cell/site.

It is 100% accurate to list a P25 simulcast cell as a single site named "Simulcast", as that's precisely what it is. I'm not sure what the confusion is here. P25 simulcast trunking has been around for a long time, and before that Motorola SmartZone simulcasts were the very popular predecessor to P25 trunking.

Anyway...off the rails as predicted.