Changes in BWI Frequencies

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TinEar

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We've got more work to do on these BWI freqs.

1. 123.75 is back again replacing 125.525...for now.
2. Confirm 290.475 and 119.7 paired.
3. Confirm 307.9 and 128.7 paired.
4. Freq 291.625 is not paired with 125.525 as listed nor with its replacement 123.75. It's paired with 126.75.
5. 124.55 is not paired with 317.425 and can't find the paired freq-yet. I'm hearing nothing at all on 317.425.
 

Spleen

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TinEar, I think we're spinning our wheels for now. After some more intensive Googling, I'm finding that the aviators are following either the Airport/Facility charts from the FAA or a Flight Guide (flightguide.com) to get their approach frequencies. These aviators are using airnav.com, aopa.org, and paper charts and getting the same misinformation we are. Since these TRACON frequencies appear to change around and appear/disappear constantly (especially on weekends when there's a lot of private traffic), we're going to end up chasing our tails if we try to assign specific frequencies to specific airports, etc. Here's an example quote from a DC-themed pilots listserv:

Among the frequencies listed is the appropriate approach control frequency
for that area. I look up the nearest airport, call that frequency, and if it
isn't the right one, they'll tell you which one is right that day. Aviate,
Navigate, and lastly, Communicate. I reckon that spending much time chasing a
busy TRACON's ever-changing frequency and boundary space is effort that could be
better spent Aviating and Navigating. The controllers know their frequencies and
boundaries; it's their job and they're good at it. The pilot's job is to fly the
airplane. We do our jobs together, and everybody benefits; we try to do each
other's jobs, and it's a sad mess.


That being said, when I get my newsgroup access back at the end of the month I can always put out a beg for a list of frequencies for this area. This has made me almost curious enough to buy one of those flight guides or a airport/facility chart, but after reading postings such as the above, whatever I buy would probably just end up on the coffee table or on the back of the commode.
 

dtscho

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Signature's YG License

Reference the YG license for Signature, I checked this out the last time I was in the area (several months ago), and didn't hear anything on the three frequencies. I also didn't hear the distinctive squelch opening every ten seconds that LTR frequencies have.

Dave
 

ericcarlson

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Spleen said:
TinEar, I think we're spinning our wheels for now. After some more intensive Googling, I'm finding that the aviators are following either the Airport/Facility charts from the FAA or a Flight Guide (flightguide.com) to get their approach frequencies. These aviators are using airnav.com, aopa.org, and paper charts and getting the same misinformation we are. Since these TRACON frequencies appear to change around and appear/disappear constantly (especially on weekends when there's a lot of private traffic), we're going to end up chasing our tails if we try to assign specific frequencies to specific airports, etc.

I've been working on the TRACON frequencies in Houston for awhile with limited success (I've identified 13 VHF frequencies, only 6 of which are actually published on the Terminal Area Chart). I've also discussed this with a friend who is a pilot. Short of actually seeing a master map at the TRACON this could be very difficult to nail down, especially since sectors are combined and split as traffic patterns dictate. Sectors can also be split into sections vertically by altitude.

One thing that has helped me a little is to look through the instrument approach charts (which are now available on the AirNav airport pages). Each approach chart has the controller frequencies for that approach, so based on the direction of the approach you may be able to make an educated guess on what sector the frequencies cover.

-Eric
 

n3bxv

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TinEar

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I readily agree that there are changing uses of frequencies when you try to assign a specific approach sector and altitude to a TRACON freq set. However, there doesn't appear to be any change from a *listening* standpoint. The same frequencies are in use for listening to BWI at all times. It also appears that the same set of VHF/UHF frequencies are always paired. For instance, 128.7/307.9 are always paired no matter the basic use of the pair. On some days 128.7 is the primary departure freq and other days it's 124.55 and even 119.7 at times. But the UHF freq stays paired with its corresponding VHF freq - always.
 

ka3jjz

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OK I did a quick scan this afternoon, and here's the pairings as of 5:04:

133.75/254.35 and is an approach freq; much stronger signal strength than before, so I assume new/adjusted xmtr or antenna
128.70/307.9
126.75/291.625
119.7/290.475
119.0/282.275

That leaves 125.525, 124.55 and 123.75 as A/D freqs for which we don't have a corresponding milair freq. In addition, 119.4/257.8 Tower still needs to be checked. It remains to be seen if these pairings hold up during weekday rush hour, as I know 290.475 and 291.625 sometimes flip flop.

73s Mike
 

Spleen

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FLIPs

Thanks for the info on FLIPs, n3bxv....right now that's prolly the most concrete info I've seen so far...
 

n3bxv

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Updated FLIPs should be posted sometime this week, effective 1 Oct. The Flips are also useful for finding Milair Command Post Freqs.

Chuck
 

TinEar

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Thanks Chuck for posting the current Flight Info Pub. If I'm not mistaken, those are published in 28 day cycles, as are the NOTAMS. Of course, the NOTAMS can be supplemented at any time during the month as situations warrant.

The flight controller I heard a couple of days ago that started this whole thing, mentioned that the ATIS freqs would be changing and mentioned that 123.75 was replacing 125.525 "for at least the next few days." His following comments appeared to me to indicate there would be other freq changes coming at the end of that few days period. We'll see.
 

ka3jjz

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Here are the pairings that I noted this eve. Note that a couple of UHF freqs seem to be doing double duty. This was noted between 5 and 6 o clock or so.

133.75/254.35
128.7/307.9
125.75/291.625
125.525/unk and this seems to be back to carrying pilot replies
124.55/254.35
123.75/unk very very weak here, used to be very strong
119.7/282.275
119.0/282.275

unk= unknown mil air pair
ATIS still on 127.8; I can't get 115.1 here.
As you can see, 254.35 and 282.275 seem to be doubling up. This, together with the very weak comms on 123.75, suggest that not everything is up to snuff with the recent FLIP announcements.

73s Mike
 

TinEar

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Guess who we've now got transmitting from BWI?

Washington Center is now loud and clear on 134.50. Guess we should add that to the database for BWI based air controllers. I hadn't really searched the air band for anything other than company air/ground ops for a long time. Glad I finally did. Of course, it's possible that everyone else knew about this and I'm just the last to get the word. Sigh.

The two ATIS freqs of 115.1 and 127.8 are still transmitting as of today in spite of what the tower controller mentioned a couple of weeks ago about new ATIS freqs on the way.

It looks like most of the freqs have reverted to where they were before they began playing with 123.75, etc. The only thing I've never figured out is why you hear, for instance, the controller on 119.0 and 119.7 simulcasting but occasionally you'll also hear an aircraft answer directly on 119.0 rather than only on 119.7 as is usual. I'm not sure whether it's a mistake when they do that or if it's a certain approach angle/altitude that requires that.

Suggestion: Might it be better to have all the BWI stuff listed in the top part of the Maryland database listings rather than buried down in Anne Arundel County? That dawned on me when I went to find the Dulles freqs and wasn't sure what county Dulles was in. It might make it easier to find for someone that isn't sure about the county.
 

ericcarlson

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TinEar said:
Suggestion: Might it be better to have all the BWI stuff listed in the top part of the Maryland database listings rather than buried down in Anne Arundel County? That dawned on me when I went to find the Dulles freqs and wasn't sure what county Dulles was in. It might make it easier to find for someone that isn't sure about the county.

All of the airports on this site are attached to the county that they are in, that's just the way it is. You can use the "Search for Agency/County" on the RR Database page to get to BWI, just enter "bwi" as the search term.

All ARTCC (air traffic control centers) are created as state-level pages under the "primary" state (Washington Center is under Virginia). Lindsay is planning to eventually enable us to link the ARTCCs to all states that they cover.

For the most part we are putting the approach/departure frequencies on the individual airport pages.

-Eric
 

ka3jjz

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TinEar said:
Guess who we've now got transmitting from BWI?
Washington Center is now loud and clear on 134.50.

That's really an ARTCC center, not BWI. You can hear the milair parallel on 360.7 I'm not entirely sure where the ARTCC center is actually located, but it's very doubtful it's at BWI. It is possible they're in a site much like the Potomac Tracon

Oh and if you're looking for Dulles and Reagan National links, you need look no further than here...

http://henney.com/chm/links/vadatah.htm#CONVENT

But of course, you knew that already, right?

Anyway, I got an email that suggested that 123.75 has been moved to cover Tipton. This makes sense, since the county bought them outright.
It's much too weak here for me to copy it reliably, can anyone verify this?

73s Mike
 

TinEar

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I can't swear they're located at BWI (134.50), but they are now loud enough that I can remove the antenna and still hear them. Uhhh...I think that means they are close. I had forgotten about them because the last time I tried to hear that freq several months ago, I couldn't hear the ground controller. So, they have either increased their transmit power several fold or they have moved the transmitter.

128.70/126.75 is apparently undergoing a function change. The controller has no idea which freq he's hearing the aircraft on. He keeps telling them to transmit on 126.75 when they are already there. Many aircraft are having trouble hearing the controller on 126.75. I can see why..it's a crappy sounding signal.

I've had 123.75 up all day and haven't heard a peep. That would be interesting if it's now being used for Tipton. I should be able to hear them if they use it for that. I'll keep it up full time on one of my radios and see what happens.

And, to answer your question...Right, I did know that.

By the way, it's a fantastic night for the VHF freqs. PA and VA are booming in and blocking some of the local signals. Winchester VA is actually blocking out Kent County MD on 159.21. I never thought I'd see that happen as loud as Kent is. I also have someone in NJ wiping out Arlington County on 154.13 which is usually a very loud signal. PG county sheriff being blocked by Harrisburg Dispatch PSP on 155.58. Fun night.
 

ka3jjz

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TinEar said:
I can't swear they're located at BWI (134.50), but they are now loud enough that I can remove the antenna and still hear them. Uhhh...I think that means they are close. I had forgotten about them because the last time I tried to hear that freq several months ago, I couldn't hear the ground controller. So, they have either increased their transmit power several fold or they have moved the transmitter.

128.70/126.75 is apparently undergoing a function change. The controller has no idea which freq he's hearing the aircraft on. He keeps telling them to transmit on 126.75 when they are already there. Many aircraft are having trouble hearing the controller on 126.75. I can see why..it's a crappy sounding signal.

I've had 123.75 up all day and haven't heard a peep. That would be interesting if it's now being used for Tipton. I should be able to hear them if they use it for that. I'll keep it up full time on one of my radios and see what happens.

By the way, it's a fantastic night for the VHF freqs. PA and VA are booming in and blocking some of the local signals. Winchester VA is actually blocking out Kent County MD on 159.21. I never thought I'd see that happen as loud as Kent is. I also have someone in NJ wiping out Arlington County on 154.13 which is usually a very loud signal. PG county sheriff being blocked by Harrisburg Dispatch PSP on 155.58. Fun night.

No doubt it's a bit of tropo with a fairly strong cold front coming in. Skip can be fun for us, a headache and a half for the real users, though.

I've almost always been able to hear what was called the SWANN sector even with the most crappy antennas. But it's entirely possible that the xmtr power has been increased, or a better antenna. With the recent TRACON reorganization, there are lots of possibilities. In fact, I'm not entirely sure about the relationship between the new TRACON and the ARTCC center, if there is one. It's interesting stuff for sure.

73s for now...Mike

P.S. I have about 4 or 5 CW IDs from the freq list you sent me, plus 1 or 2 other things I've noted. I'm not sure I'm going to be able to read the CW real well, though - some of that sounds like 30wpm, which is too fast for me...MixW could do it, though...hmmm
 

TinEar

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If you can make a .wav file and send the CW to me I'll read them for you. 30 wpm is about my speed these days. It was higher in my younger days but, like everything else, skills erode when not used enough and with age.
 

Spleen

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Definitely not kidding about the good VHF tonight....I haven't had ACARS hits like these for a while....

By the way, if anyone wants to play with ACARS, I'm testing out an ACARSD setup tonight....prolly take a break to play Far Cry, then back on before bedtime....66.93.55.167
 

wadeless28

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Hey 134.5 has always transmitted from "the BWI area". I'm sure the antenna is located on airport property but not sure where.

134.5 is the SWANN low frequency for Washington Center. The controllers are located in Herndon, Va near Dulles.

You guys that are located in the near the Odenton, Severn, Glen Burnie, Pasadena areas take a look up in the evenings (around 1800L) you will see the heavy’s coming out of Dulles heading for the coast. Around my QTH they are between 14 and 18 thousand feet up and are speaking to ZDC on 134.5. It seems that once they hit just east of the bay they will switch to either Sea Isle (133.125), Casino (127.7) or Dupont (132.525) depending on their assigned route. I enjoy sitting with the kids in the evening looking at what foreign airlines fly over (you can still identify them at that height) and letting the kids listen to the pilots and their accents.

Mike
 

TinEar

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I enjoy sitting with the kids in the evening looking at what foreign airlines fly over (you can still identify them at that height) and letting the kids listen to the pilots and their accents.

Mike (wadeless28 Mike), You know, the more I think about this, it's such a fantastic way to open up another world to kids. The ability to "see" what they are hearing on the radio and to learn of other countries - especially if you can point out to them on a map or globe the countries those planes are flying to - qualifies as one of the best ideas I've heard lately. There are so many things it accomplishes all at the same time. They are learning about a hobby, they are learning something about geography, they are learning English as spoken by others and perhaps learning about aircraft and flight. Most of all though, it is opening up their imagination which is a key to success in life and it is re-enforcing the idea of the whole family participating in an enjoyable activity which can only strengthen the family. Congratulations for a great idea and for the guidance you're providing your kids.

Alan
 
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