Cleveland National Forest New Forest Net

[Teotwaki]

OHV2 would be the OHV unit supervisor on the Trabuco Ranger District. That person would work Ranger District wide, not just at one particular area. There should be other OHV units which would be OHV21, OHV22, etc. Budget cuts may have eliminated these other units, leaving the supervisor working alone. Wildomar might take up most of the workload and OHV2 might only have time to work it without getting out to the rest of the district.

Second, I count 13 LEO's. That must be nice. Up here on the Inyo I believe there is only one, 4 Charles 1. They can't seem to keep the more field going officers positions filled. Especially the position on the Mammoth Ranger District.

First time I heard and wrote down the OHV callsign so I imagine there are more I've not yet paid attention to and recorded. There could be callsigns assigned to seasonal people and maybe some are dormant? Wildomar is a designated area for OHVs but has only 8 miles of trails so it won't need a bunch of OHV units. The other OHV areas are a lot further south. https://www.fs.usda.gov/activity/cleveland/recreation/ohv Wildomar has been closed due to the onslaught of fires so not much OHV call sign radio activity.

I think the LEOs I've heard are patrolling all of CNF and since CNF is an oasis in the middle of heavily populated areas (as opposed to INF) I can imagine the number of officers is appropriate.

Also a reminder that when I listen to the Forest Net link frequency I am hearing all of the repeaters, not just those in Trabuco.

 

[ecps92]

Green Mtns NF and White Mtns NF (VT and NH)
missing a few sites and only those in Low Power are showing...

I know see why the sites are missing known USFS Repeaters.
This is the Rental sites that the USFS can/does Lease/rent out space to other entities (Public and Private) for Fees $$

Thanks Fred for more insight

 

[ecps92]

Great find!! A good map for determining ranger district, wilderness and roadless area boundaries as well as finding electronic sites that have special use permits for electronics. I wish there was a similar map with all the Forest Service sites. Some of these special use permit sites also have Forest Service electronics in them, but a Forest Service only site map would be fantastic.

There was one, but it didn't last too long in the public domain

USFS builds performance monitoring and geospatial reporting tool

The US Forest Service app was built by GCS using Esri JavaScript API for ArcGIS, Esri ArcGIS for Server map services and Microsoft SQLServer database.

gcs.yourdatasmarter.com

 

[es93546]

I know see why the sites are missing known USFS Repeaters.
This is the Rental sites that the USFS can/does Lease/rent out space to other entities (Public and Private) for Fees $$

Thanks Fred for more insight

I'm picky because I know the actual story. The Forest Service does not "lease" or "rent" anything. It issues special use permits, most of which involve an annual fee. It can issue term permits, which come with 20-50 year terms. The 50 year terms are for substantial investments made to facilities on National Forest land, such as major ski areas, dams and other substantial investments. The 20 year terms are for permits for things like lodges and other recreation use facilities. If the Forest Service cancels these term permits early, it has to compensate the permit holder for the financial value of the improvements on the National Forest lands. Typically, term permits that are being cancelled are allowed to remain on the land to the end of the term and then are not reissued. The other type of permit is an annual permit. It may have a month expiration date or for up to a 20 year expiration date. If it is cancelled prior to the expiration date there is no financial compensation involved. The annual permit goes on for subsequent years as long as the permit terms are followed and the annual fee paid in full.

Legally, a permit fee and a rental fee are legally different entities and the USFS does not charge rental fees, because it doesn't lease or rent out National Forest land. Typical expiration dates for electronic sites are for 20 years and they are annual permits.

There is one exception to this "there are no leases of National Forest land" statement. That is for oil and gas leases of public land (BLM, USFS, USFWS and extremely rare NPS National Monuments) which are issued by the BLM following extensive input from the agencies who have jurisdiction of the lands in the lease.

So the old statement of "the Forest Service issued a 99 year lease" has never been true. There has never been a law that authorizes such a document. I know you did not make such a statement, but I hear it on a regular basis.

 

[prcguy]

I'm picky because I know the actual story. The Forest Service does not "lease" or "rent" anything. It issues special use permits, most of which involve an annual fee. It can issue term permits, which come with 20-50 year terms. The 50 year terms are for substantial investments made to facilities on National Forest land, such as major ski areas, dams and other substantial investments. The 20 year terms are for permits for things like lodges and other recreation use facilities. If the Forest Service cancels these term permits early, it has to compensate the permit holder for the financial value of the improvements on the National Forest lands. Typically, term permits that are being cancelled are allowed to remain on the land to the end of the term and then are not reissued. The other type of permit is an annual permit. It may have a month expiration date or for up to a 20 year expiration date. If it is cancelled prior to the expiration date there is no financial compensation involved. The annual permit goes on for subsequent years as long as the permit terms are followed and the annual fee paid in full.

Legally, a permit fee and a rental fee are legally different entities and the USFS does not charge rental fees, because it doesn't lease or rent out National Forest land. Typical expiration dates for electronic sites are for 20 years and they are annual permits.

There is one exception to this "there are no leases of National Forest land" statement. That is for oil and gas leases of public land (BLM, USFS, USFWS and extremely rare NPS National Monuments) which are issued by the BLM following extensive input from the agencies who have jurisdiction of the lands in the lease.

So the old statement of "the Forest Service issued a 99 year lease" has never been true. There has never been a law that authorizes such a document. I know you did not make such a statement, but I hear it on a regular basis.

In the 1960s my family purchased a cabin on USFS land and it had a 99yr land lease with 18yrs left when we bought it. I saw the document. The same cabin today is owned by someone else now and under a different schedule, so at some point in the past there were 99yr leases.

 

[Teotwaki]

I know see why the sites are missing known USFS Repeaters.
This is the Rental sites that the USFS can/does Lease/rent out space to other entities (Public and Private) for Fees $$

Thanks Fred for more insight

I am aware of USFS owned/operated buildings where other Federal agencies are allowed to install equipment but no commercial radio equipment is allowed. In SoCal there are numerous radio sites where the commercial owner/operator leases the USFS land but has constructed the site and tower out of their own pocket. I'm not aware of USFS constructed sites that lease space to commercial operators but I can imagine it happens.

 

[Teotwaki]

Hopefully this thread is not derailed by arguments about leases. Maybe that discussion can be moved to it's own thread.

 

[Teotwaki]

On topic for CNF radio comms. I believe I found the link on this forum and it shows the USFS comms site mountain tops in CNF using Google Maps. Kudos to the person who built it as it is a great visual aid.

Sign in - Google Accounts

 

[prcguy]

On topic for CNF radio comms. I believe I found the link on this forum and it shows the USFS comms site mountain tops in CNF using Google Maps. Kudos to the person who built it as it is a great visual aid.

Sign in - Google Accounts

View attachment 180625

It would be nice if they provided pictures of the site, a description of what's there and instructions on how to get there. Maybe put it in a booklet with a yellow cover....

 

[Teotwaki]

It would be nice if they provided pictures of the site, a description of what's there and instructions on how to get there. Maybe put it in a booklet with a yellow cover....

I still have the first copy of the first edition from 1991

 

[Teotwaki]

Comms 27 is out and about today in CNF

 

[es93546]

In the 1960s my family purchased a cabin on USFS land and it had a 99yr land lease with 18yrs left when we bought it. I saw the document. The same cabin today is owned by someone else now and under a different schedule, so at some point in the past there were 99yr leases.

Doing some math that would place the original issue date of the "lease" in 1888 even if the year you saw this "lease" in 1969. (1969 + 18 years = 1987. 1987 - 99 years = 1888). The U.S. Forest Service was not created until 1905 when it took over administration of the "Forest Reserves" to be renamed "National Forests" in 1907. The Forest Reserves started to be created in 1891 when the Forest Reserve Act was passed. These Forest Reserves were originally administered by General Land Office (GLO) in the Department of the Interior. The Forest Reserves covered a relatively small area from 1891 until the Teddy Roosevelt administration, about 40 million acres, all in the west. Roosevelt added about 150 million acres to the system. Thus, these "99 Year Leases" were obviously not issued by the U.S. Forest Service, nor by GLO. The U.S. Forest Service could not issue special use permits for cabins until the Occupancy Permits Act 1915. The term permits issued by the USFS had expiration dates of 20 years, as allowed by this law. Given the issue date of this "lease" being prior to the existence of National Forest or even Forest Reserve land, I'm puzzled by what you say.

 

[es93546]

I am aware of USFS owned/operated buildings where other Federal agencies are allowed to install equipment but no commercial radio equipment is allowed. In SoCal there are numerous radio sites where the commercial owner/operator leases the USFS land but has constructed the site and tower out of their own pocket. I'm not aware of USFS constructed sites that lease space to commercial operators but I can imagine it happens.

Again, not "leases," but permits. Leases grant more rights to lessee than a permit grants to permittees. These are two different animals. I dealt with many electronic site permits during my career at multiple electronic sites and participated in the establishment of Regional Forester (9 of whom are just below the Chief) approved electronic sites. These approved electronic sites must be established in order to issue special use permits for non-federal government entities with electronic equipment. If a federal agency shares a site with the USFS, it is authorized under a "Memorandum of Understanding." It is similar to a special use permit. The federal government does not issue special use permits to itself.

I served as an Assistant Recreation and LANDS Officer and as a Recreation and Lands Officer for 11 years so I know the laws and policies pertaining to electronic uses quite well.

 

[es93546]

Of interest is that many approved electronic sites are located at or within fire lookout towers. They often utilize a building that is located at the base of the lookout within the confines of the tower structure. Many have expanded with buildings outside the confines of the lookout tower. Some of these lookouts are no longer used as a lookout and are now just an electronic site. There are many examples of this on the 4 southern California National Forests. Lookout towers make a great structure for antennas.

 

[es93546]

I still have the first copy of the first edition from 1991
View attachment 180628

I have a spindle bound version of this. No doubt I found about where to order it in the then newsletter of the old Radio Communications Monitoring Association (RCMA). It brings back memories of submitting hand written articles for that newsletter.

 

[Teotwaki]

When Comms 27 was out yesterday one of the sites he took care of was High Point

Today there's a lot of chatter on R5TAC5 167.1125 and it sounds like a controlled burn somewhere.

Also some talk on Common4 163.7125

 

[es93546]

Just another observation of how electronic sites work. If a permittee at a federal land site shares their building with another user, a special use permit for that user is still required. The agency whose land the electronic site is on, has a notification process for all existing users to see if anyone has interference concerns. This process occurs prior to a permit being issued. If an existing user objects then a negotiation process begins between the existing user and the proposed user. This is in addition to the private process of APCO and industry associations. In spite of that some crowded sites end up with all kinds of interference, sometimes guy wires or cables for antenna structures pick up RF and then emit RF at certain frequencies that interfere with other users. The USFS approach is to encourage all parties to work this out among themselves.

At commercial installations on private land the landowner or site owner typically rents, not leases, space in their building or space for a separate building and antenna structure if needed. Again, renting, as compared to leasing, gives the renter fewer rights than a lease does.

 

[Teotwaki]

I put all of the link frequencies into a scanning radio with a UHF Yagi pointed roughly East. Whenever a unit IDs and shares the Tone number they are using I've written it down. This will give me a fair idea of which sites have linked radios. I know that a site such as Sitton Peak (Solar/battery) will not have any links but I suspect there are others that are also standalone.

Forest Net link on 406.525 - Tones: 2,4,5,7,9
Admin link on 406.225 - Tones: 4, 9 (Admin is not a busy channel)

 

[Teotwaki]

When I was searching on information for Lyons Peak I found this picture of the lookout building in 1913. They have more pictures at the link

Lyons Peak – FFLA-SDRC

www.ffla-sandiego.org