Considerations about linking GMRS repeaters.

[12dbsinad]

Where does it say "and other networks"? (You used quotes.)



Um, no, that doesn't say "and other networks." (You used quotes.)

Moreover, if what you are claiming is true, that statement (4) could be used to justify virtually anything as long as it was in writing. At any rate, you may be right about linking, but not for the reason you've stated.

Not this again. It most certainly does, under 95.1749 GMRS network connection. See, it says "other networks". You guys are trying your dandiest to prove me wrong aren't you... LOL. I guess I should have used OR instead of AND, go ahead a roast me

§ 95.1749 GMRS network connection.​

Operation of a GMRS station with a telephone connection is prohibited, as in § 95.349. GMRS repeater, base and fixed stations, however, may be connected to the public switched network or other networks for the sole purpose of operation by remote control pursuant to § 95.1745.

 

[bill4long]

Not this again. It most certainly does, under 95.1749 GMRS network connection. See, it says "other networks". You guys are trying your dandiest to prove me wrong aren't you... LOL. I guess I should have used OR instead of AND, go ahead a roast me

§ 95.1749 GMRS network connection.​

Operation of a GMRS station with a telephone connection is prohibited, as in § 95.349. GMRS repeater, base and fixed stations, however, may be connected to the public switched network or other networks for the sole purpose of operation by remote control pursuant to § 95.1745.

Well, no, that pertains to remote control, not linked repeaters.

 

[bill4long]

Let's see if I can spell it out for you from 95.303:

Control point. Any location where the operator of a Personal Radio Services station may reliably operate that station.

Control station. A station at a fixed location that communicates with mobile stations and other control stations through repeater stations, and may also be used to control the operation of repeater stations.

Remote control. Operation of a Personal Radio Services station from a location that is not in the immediate vicinity of the transmitter. Operation of a Personal Radio Services station from any location on the premises, vehicle or craft where the transmitter is located is not considered to be remote control.

Automatic control. Operational control of a Personal Radio Services station by automated means, such that the operator does not have to be located at a control point and monitoring communications in order to share channels and avoid interference and rule violations.

None of those mention linking repeaters or stations and are all in harmony with those terms as the FCC uses them in a wide number of radio services.

95.1749 mentions nothing about linking. It only says stations may be connected to the public switched network or other networks for the sole purpose of operation by remote control.

95.1731 Permissible GMRS uses does not expliclty state that use of linked repeaters are a permissible use. Neither does 95.1733 Prohibited GMRS uses explicitly forbid them.

I believe it is a gray area, and that the FCC is negligent by not tightening up the regs. At any rate, as I said before, you may be right about the lawfulness of linking GMRS repeaters over the Internet, but not for the reasons you are claiming. If you really care about this, I suggest giving the FCC a bell. Report back and let us know what you find out.

​

 

[12dbsinad]

Well, no, that pertains to remote control, not linked repeaters.

Exactly. Can be done via wireline, internet, cellular, 2 cans and a string, whatever....

You won't find ANYTHING about linking repeaters because there are none, like you pointed out. What people are doing is confusing controlling a repeater with "we can link everything together". Taking things out of context doesn't change the rules to fit someones narrative.

 

[AK9R]

Right in the rules.

So, 47 CFR 95.1705(f)(4). See, that wasn't difficult.

 

[12dbsinad]

So, 47 CFR 95.1705(f)(4). See, that wasn't difficult.

Neither is reading the rules and finding it. People seem to know everything about GMRS but apparently have never read them.

 

[tomk62]

"the repeater operator is also to obtain WRITTEN permission of ALL users" <> "All sharing arrangements must be conducted in accordance with a written agreement"

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

So, 47 CFR 95.1705(f)(4). See, that wasn't difficult.

What it really says....
(f) Cooperative use of GMRS stations. GMRS licensees may share the use of their stations with other persons eligible in the GMRS, subject to the conditions and limitations in this paragraph.
(1) The GMRS station to be shared must be individually owned by the licensee, jointly owned by the participants and the licensee, leased individually by the licensee, or leased jointly by the participants and the licensee.
(2) The licensee must maintain access to and control over all stations authorized under its license.
(3) A station may be shared only:
(i) Without charge;
(ii) On a non-profit basis, with contributions to capital and operating expenses including the cost of mobile stations and paging receivers prorated equitably among all participants; or
(iii) On a reciprocal basis, i.e., use of one licensee's stations for the use of another licensee's stations without charge for either capital or operating expenses.
(4) All sharing arrangements must be conducted in accordance with a written agreement to be kept as part of the station records.

 

[12dbsinad]

What it really says....
(f) Cooperative use of GMRS stations. GMRS licensees may share the use of their stations with other persons eligible in the GMRS, subject to the conditions and limitations in this paragraph.
(1) The GMRS station to be shared must be individually owned by the licensee, jointly owned by the participants and the licensee, leased individually by the licensee, or leased jointly by the participants and the licensee.
(2) The licensee must maintain access to and control over all stations authorized under its license.
(3) A station may be shared only:
(i) Without charge;
(ii) On a non-profit basis, with contributions to capital and operating expenses including the cost of mobile stations and paging receivers prorated equitably among all participants; or
(iii) On a reciprocal basis, i.e., use of one licensee's stations for the use of another licensee's stations without charge for either capital or operating expenses.
(4) All sharing arrangements must be conducted in accordance with a written agreement to be kept as part of the station records.

It says that unless you’re covered under the family callsign that anyone else using or “sharing” the repeater needs written permission that needs to be filed.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

It says that unless you’re covered under the family callsign that anyone else using or “sharing” the repeater needs written permission that needs to be filed.

Assuming it said that. SO WHAT?

 

[AK9R]

If a GMRS repeater owner writes out a blanket statement saying that anyone operating with a valid GMRS license may use his/her repeater and then includes that blanket statement in the station records, are they meeting the letter of 47 CFR 95.1705(f)(4)?

 

[12dbsinad]

Assuming it said that. SO WHAT?

So what exactly does it say?

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

If a GMRS repeater owner writes out a blanket statement saying that anyone operating with a valid GMRS license may use his/her repeater and then includes that blanket statement in the station records, are they meeting the letter of 47 CFR 95.1705(f)(4)?

Why not. It could read all licensed are welcome unless banned. Here are those banned:

 

[03msc]

I would think "all licensed operators are welcome" would be the list and the agreement for most GMRS repeaters if that's even actually required for general users.

 

[03msc]

Well...to be completely honest, I thought about not even posting this because it somewhat goes against some of what I said previously in this thread. And I do think there are a lot of "but..." statements that could be made. But, as someone who likes to think of himself as a realist and who believes in full disclosure and honesty, I heard back from the FCC on my question. The below is a simple copy/paste (with no edits) of what I submitted to them and their response. I did exclude my salutation paragraph but it had nothing relevant in it.

I will say...they didn't answer the question about what they are going to do about linked repeaters. I guess we can take that as "nothing". Which would support the argument that they don't care so even if they say it isn't permitted then it really is because they aren't doing anything about them.

I encourage anyone who want to to just shoot them a message through the website and ask your own questions. Perhaps different wording would get a different response. I do believe that other have been told by them that they are fine.

Here is the copy/paste of what I sent and what they responded:

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My question is regarding GMRS repeaters. It is common practice these days for GMRS repeaters to be linked, whether it's just two repeaters in one area of a state or a statewide linked system or even multi-state systems that exist.

As long as they use VOIP to link that avoids interconnect (telephone/PSTN) networks, the general consensus from many is that linking is permitted. Can you confirm that for me?

If, however, you say it is not permitted to link GMRS repeaters, what, if anything, will be done about the many linked systems in operation at this time?

Any and all guidance would be appreciated as this has been a point of confusion and discussion with some recently and we'd like some guidance from the governing agency. Thanks for your time.​

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**Please do not reply back to this message. The e-mail address is configured for outgoing e-mail only.**​

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Good afternoon,​

​

Please be advised that this staff advice is not binding to the Commission.​

​

Staff opinion is that linking GMRS repeaters via the internet or PSTN in a way that sends GMRS messages and control signals to rebroadcast those messages via this link at a distant repeater site is not permitted. Please refer to 95.1733(a)(8) which specifically prohibits messages which are both conveyed by a wireline control link and transmitted by a GMRS station. Additionally, please refer to 95.1749 which states, "GMRS repeater, base and fixed stations, however, may be connected to the public switched network or other networks for the sole purpose of operation by remote control pursuant to § 95.1745."​

​

There are only 8 channel pairs nationwide for GMRS repeater operations that are shared on commons basis, so linking many repeaters to transmit simulcast communications is not spectrum efficient and could interfere with other users a great distance away. Accordingly, pursuant to 95.1733(a)(8) GMRS messages which are both conveyed by a wireline control link and are transmitted by a GMRS station should not be carried on any network for the purpose of linking repeaters for simulcast."​

​

We can't speak to the earlier staff advice that was provided through our licensing support center. Perhaps, that advice indicated the connection would only be valid for remote control of the repeater site, or for the sole purpose of monitoring repeater communications by a control operator at a control point to ensure compliance with the Commission's rules. However, using such network connections to carry VOIP GMRS traffic for rebroadcast on one or more GMRS repeaters at distant locations renders the listen before talk etiquette ineffective and undermines the basic structure of this service.​

​

If you have any further questions or need additional information, please submit a help request at https://www.fcc.gov/wtbhelp or call the FCC Licensing Support Center at (877) 480-3201.​

​

Sincerely,​

​

FCC Licensing Support Center
8:00 AM – 6:00 PM ET, M – F​

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I'll close by saying...while I'm not a huge proponent of linked system, I do see why some want them and I also see why they say they are permitted. But, apparently the view of the Agency is that they aren't. I'm not sure I agree but it's not my opinion that matters when it comes to federal agencies.

 

[MTS2000des]

My question is regarding GMRS repeaters. It is common practice these days for GMRS repeaters to be linked, whether it's just two repeaters in one area of a state or a statewide linked system or even multi-state systems that exist.

​

As long as they use VOIP to link that avoids interconnect (telephone/PSTN) networks, the general consensus from many is that linking is permitted. Can you confirm that for me?​

​

If, however, you say it is not permitted to link GMRS repeaters, what, if anything, will be done about the many linked systems in operation at this time?​

​

Any and all guidance would be appreciated as this has been a point of confusion and discussion with some recently and we'd like some guidance from the governing agency. Thanks for your time.​

​

​

​

**Please do not reply back to this message. The e-mail address is configured for outgoing e-mail only.**​

​

​

​

Good afternoon,​

​

Please be advised that this staff advice is not binding to the Commission.​

​

Staff opinion is that linking GMRS repeaters via the internet or PSTN in a way that sends GMRS messages and control signals to rebroadcast those messages via this link at a distant repeater site is not permitted. Please refer to 95.1733(a)(8) which specifically prohibits messages which are both conveyed by a wireline control link and transmitted by a GMRS station. Additionally, please refer to 95.1749 which states, "GMRS repeater, base and fixed stations, however, may be connected to the public switched network or other networks for the sole purpose of operation by remote control pursuant to § 95.1745."​

​

There are only 8 channel pairs nationwide for GMRS repeater operations that are shared on commons basis, so linking many repeaters to transmit simulcast communications is not spectrum efficient and could interfere with other users a great distance away. Accordingly, pursuant to 95.1733(a)(8) GMRS messages which are both conveyed by a wireline control link and are transmitted by a GMRS station should not be carried on any network for the purpose of linking repeaters for simulcast."​

​

We can't speak to the earlier staff advice that was provided through our licensing support center. Perhaps, that advice indicated the connection would only be valid for remote control of the repeater site, or for the sole purpose of monitoring repeater communications by a control operator at a control point to ensure compliance with the Commission's rules. However, using such network connections to carry VOIP GMRS traffic for rebroadcast on one or more GMRS repeaters at distant locations renders the listen before talk etiquette ineffective and undermines the basic structure of this service.​

​

If you have any further questions or need additional information, please submit a help request at https://www.fcc.gov/wtbhelp or call the FCC Licensing Support Center at (877) 480-3201.​

​

Sincerely,​

​

FCC Licensing Support Center​

8:00 AM – 6:00 PM ET, M – F​

Well well well...the FCC has (unofficially?) spoken. That part about only 8 pairs...sounds like something I said.
And so it begins. Once the EB starts getting complaints, you can count on an NPRM prohibiting hogging, and say good bye to your "quasi ham" whacker networks.

Or not.

We shall see.

 

[12dbsinad]

Well well well... look at what the cat dragged in.

I knew this would be the case. As the ol' saying goes, don't believe everything you read on the internet! Keyboard professionals galore. I knew trouble when posters had no idea of the basic rules of GMRS that are CLEARLY spelled out in the rulings that apparently they never read! If you want hammy stuff, get your ham license plain and simple and leave GMRS to what is supposed to be. Short range family communications.

 

[prcguy]

Well...to be completely honest, I thought about not even posting this because it somewhat goes against some of what I said previously in this thread. And I do think there are a lot of "but..." statements that could be made. But, as someone who likes to think of himself as a realist and who believes in full disclosure and honesty, I heard back from the FCC on my question. The below is a simple copy/paste (with no edits) of what I submitted to them and their response. I did exclude my salutation paragraph but it had nothing relevant in it.

I will say...they didn't answer the question about what they are going to do about linked repeaters. I guess we can take that as "nothing". Which would support the argument that they don't care so even if they say it isn't permitted then it really is because they aren't doing anything about them.

I encourage anyone who want to to just shoot them a message through the website and ask your own questions. Perhaps different wording would get a different response. I do believe that other have been told by them that they are fine.

Here is the copy/paste of what I sent and what they responded:

----------

My question is regarding GMRS repeaters. It is common practice these days for GMRS repeaters to be linked, whether it's just two repeaters in one area of a state or a statewide linked system or even multi-state systems that exist.​

​

As long as they use VOIP to link that avoids interconnect (telephone/PSTN) networks, the general consensus from many is that linking is permitted. Can you confirm that for me?​

​

If, however, you say it is not permitted to link GMRS repeaters, what, if anything, will be done about the many linked systems in operation at this time?​

​

Any and all guidance would be appreciated as this has been a point of confusion and discussion with some recently and we'd like some guidance from the governing agency. Thanks for your time.​

​

​

​

**Please do not reply back to this message. The e-mail address is configured for outgoing e-mail only.**​

​

​

​

Good afternoon,​

​

Please be advised that this staff advice is not binding to the Commission.​

​

Staff opinion is that linking GMRS repeaters via the internet or PSTN in a way that sends GMRS messages and control signals to rebroadcast those messages via this link at a distant repeater site is not permitted. Please refer to 95.1733(a)(8) which specifically prohibits messages which are both conveyed by a wireline control link and transmitted by a GMRS station. Additionally, please refer to 95.1749 which states, "GMRS repeater, base and fixed stations, however, may be connected to the public switched network or other networks for the sole purpose of operation by remote control pursuant to § 95.1745."​

​

There are only 8 channel pairs nationwide for GMRS repeater operations that are shared on commons basis, so linking many repeaters to transmit simulcast communications is not spectrum efficient and could interfere with other users a great distance away. Accordingly, pursuant to 95.1733(a)(8) GMRS messages which are both conveyed by a wireline control link and are transmitted by a GMRS station should not be carried on any network for the purpose of linking repeaters for simulcast."​

​

We can't speak to the earlier staff advice that was provided through our licensing support center. Perhaps, that advice indicated the connection would only be valid for remote control of the repeater site, or for the sole purpose of monitoring repeater communications by a control operator at a control point to ensure compliance with the Commission's rules. However, using such network connections to carry VOIP GMRS traffic for rebroadcast on one or more GMRS repeaters at distant locations renders the listen before talk etiquette ineffective and undermines the basic structure of this service.​

​

If you have any further questions or need additional information, please submit a help request at https://www.fcc.gov/wtbhelp or call the FCC Licensing Support Center at (877) 480-3201.​

​

Sincerely,​

​

FCC Licensing Support Center​

8:00 AM – 6:00 PM ET, M – F​

----------


I'll close by saying...while I'm not a huge proponent of linked system, I do see why some want them and I also see why they say they are permitted. But, apparently the view of the Agency is that they aren't. I'm not sure I agree but it's not my opinion that matters when it comes to federal agencies.

If anyone reads and actually understands Part 95 rules this is what it has said all along. You can remote control as in turn the repeater on and off, etc, via remote control but you can't link them together and have the same conversation going out over multiple repeaters. Now lets see if the illegal linked repeater systems can be pulled off the air.

 

[12dbsinad]

If anyone reads and actually understands Part 95 rules this is what it has said all along. You can remote control as in turn the repeater on and off, etc, via remote control but you can't link them together and have the same conversation going out over multiple repeaters. Now lets see if the illegal linked repeater systems can be pulled off the air.

Way to many people with blinders on

 

[03msc]

Now lets see if the illegal linked repeater systems can be pulled off the air.

Yeah. I suspect they won’t, though, and some will say the FCC not doing anything about them means they approve of linking.

I clarify again, I’m not a proponent of linking. I’m also not necessarily against it in some cases if done properly (one pair used in a geographic/coverage area). Unfortunately in some places it apparently isn’t done properly.