Considerations about linking GMRS repeaters.

[prcguy]

Here's one thing I'll add,

When you're on your death-bed, something tells me you won't give a crap about GMRS.

Word to the wise.

Yea, as I'm fading away I'll be clutching my P25 hammy radio. And whey they stick me 6ft under I want an extension cord to the casket so I can lay on the PTT button until I finally rot away and the radio unkeys.

 

[bill4long]

Yea, as I'm fading away I'll be clutching my P25 hammy radio. And whey they stick me 6ft under I want an extension cord to the casket so I can lay on the PTT button until I finally rot away and the radio unkeys.

What? Not cremation?

 

[665_NJ]

Considerations in linking GMRS repeaters.



I see I have started a good “to and fro” discussion on this subject matter.
This will be my final post and views on this subject as the author of this thread.
It all depends on your location.

Location, Location, Location!

In rural and some suburban areas in the country one might be able to find or establish a “traditional” GMRS repeater for family, small business, radio team for “local” use for licensed GMRS users.

However, In some of the urban and especially larger metropolitan areas the task becomes more difficult or simply impossible as speciality linking groups “Radio Mob” begin to gobble up all eight GMRS repeater pairs for their “grand design of superb simulcast repeater systems”.

In the past GMRS was used by travelers and now is still used by many radio communications groups such as REACT, ALERT and other Independent teams to enhance and / or add to their operations besides monitoring old 27 MHz CB Ch 9.
Despite the move away from CB radio years ago, if you can believe it, some teams still monitor CH Ch 9.

Also long as individual members were licensed for GMRS this includes members on CERT (Community Emergency Response Team), a radio group or a local users group using GMRS is a good communication tool.
Again with the encroachment of “The Radio Mob”, operations by these traditional GMRS users have indeed become more difficult or even impossible.

Here where I live the encroachment by the “Radio Mob” is coming quickly they now cover half of our metro area. Not withstanding, we are determined to put up a “good fight” to maintain our traditional GMRS system as long as reasonably possible.

However, we do indeed see the writing on the wall and it’s just a matter of time GMRS will descends into the GMRS-Free Band, totally useless for our purposes. So preparing for that eventuality. As a communications group we do have other options. Amateur Radio being one, in which a good portion of our members are hams.

Two, As well as our group being licensed in industrial / business pool or public safety pool of frequencies in which provide us a “Safe Harbor” that is some protection for our radio communications and operations. Meaning we have a say on who gets licensed on our licensed frequencies in our area of operations. New prospective licensee’s need a concurrence letter from us when they coordinate.

$35 for a 10 year GMRS license - inexpensive but offers little or no co channel protection. Licensing for industrial business pool and or public safety frequencies requires time, research and can be quite expensive for coordination and all that entails.

Sadly, this presents a problem since some traditional GMRS users may not have the where with all or options to opt out to and or find a “Safe Harbor”.

In closing, I am not for the linking or the hogging of all eight GMRS pairs for broad area simulcast broadcast repeaters. I am simply GMRS user traditionalist.


Thanks for reading and for the vibrant discussion.
Enjoy the Labor Day weekend!

END/

 

[bill4long]

This will be my final post and views on this subject

Whew. Thanks for the heads up!

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

Linked Hammie repeaters:

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[MTS2000des]

Ham (part 97) is the appropriate venue for linked repeaters.
Plenty of spectrum (in my area of 8 million, 2m, 220 and 440 are silent for hours a day).
Coordination- while optional, FCC generally grants coordinated repeaters preference in "staying as-is" versus non-coordinated ones. But again, (see previous point) with tons of available pairs on multiple bands, there is room enough for everyone.
Power output: go ahead and put up your Quantro with an 8db gain vertical. It's 100 percent legal unlike GMRS.
Part 97 is more suited to ragchewing. Again, plenty of room for everyone.

Is there a commonality here? Plenty of unused spectrum sitting here rotting away, but a bunch of snot nosed (mostly hams) would rather pig up 8 little UHF pairs with power limits of 50 watts and spatter a town full of linked repeaters with the same crap coming out of all of them, preventing others from using those few channels.

 

[prcguy]

Ham (part 97) is the appropriate venue for linked repeaters.
Plenty of spectrum (in my area of 8 million, 2m, 220 and 440 are silent for hours a day).
Coordination- while optional, FCC generally grants coordinated repeaters preference in "staying as-is" versus non-coordinated ones. But again, (see previous point) with tons of available pairs on multiple bands, there is room enough for everyone.
Power output: go ahead and put up your Quantro with an 8db gain vertical. It's 100 percent legal unlike GMRS.
Part 97 is more suited to ragchewing. Again, plenty of room for everyone.

Is there a commonality here? Plenty of unused spectrum sitting here rotting away, but a bunch of snot nosed (mostly hams) would rather pig up 8 little UHF pairs with power limits of 50 watts and spatter a town full of linked repeaters with the same crap coming out of all of them, preventing others from using those few channels.

Ahh, linked ham repeaters. A good example of how this can go wrong is the WINSYSTEM. It started out as a great idea and huge technical achievement with lots of repeaters linked all over the world. They all key up at the same time. Then the owners started gobbling up frequencies and taking over repeaters that covered smaller areas but did this with a bunch of repeaters that cover nearly the exact same area like most of So Cal.

So when you key up a WINSYSTEM repeater anywhere there are at least nine repeaters and one 2m simplex freq in So Cal that key up covering the same basic area consuming nine precious impossible to get repeater pairs. You can key the system up and get radio checks from all over the place but if you try to carry on a conversation you will quickly get a lecture from one of the control ops on how your tying up the huge bloated system.

I've heard the WINSYSTEM gets into some repeater sites by advertising what a great asset they are to emergency communications. Then came the on air emergency where someone called for help and either the owner of the WINSYSTEM or one of the higher up control ops comes on the air and tells them and everyone else how silly it is to call for emergency assistance because there is a good chance that only people far away on linked repeaters might hear you and that would not be helpful. There was a recording or YouTube floating around on this and I'm going from memory but you can probably search and find the recording.

So now the WINSYSTEM seems to only grow to feed itself and no longer serves the amateur community. Except maybe to feed the egos of its handlers. I can see all this easily happening with GMRS linked systems if your not careful. My motto in life is "if some is good, more is better and too much is just right". Do this with GMRS repeaters and you will be where the WINSYSTEM is.

 

[MTS2000des]

At least the WINSYSTEM is not on every repeater pair on every FM band.

 

[smittie]

Any thoughts I might have had about setting up a repeater are getting squelched reading through this thread.

 

[MTS2000des]

Any thoughts I might have had about setting up a repeater are getting squelched reading through this thread.

Which is pretty sad, because the INTENT of GMRS was to allow for folks like you who want to use the service for their personal and family use to invest in appropriate hardware and SHARE the limited spectrum. You want to operate in the spirit of the service, and the pigs make it impossible/impractical with their snot nosed simulcast wanna-be ham networks. Would be nice if the FCC would drop the hammer and say "stop it" to these hogs...but they could care less.

 

[pandel]

I don't let it upset me. Those folks need a place to go and I need a place to avoid.
Just like 2 meters when I got my Ham ticket 20+ years ago it took me less than a week to figure out that I didn't want to be there, sell my radio and never come back. I've been on other modes HF, (not 80 meters) 70 cm, etc .... ever since. Took about the same amount of time with GMRS and all the mic checks.
My point is ..... everyone needs a place to do what they do. 80 meters is a wasteland, CB was a wasteland and now GMRS is the new toy. Once the next new toy requiring little or expertise or a short learning curve (for most, not all) GMRS will be forgotten just like CB.
Either way, It doesn't upset me. The folks that enjoy those frequencies, as we say in the south "Bless their hearts". Enjoy. My radio has two knobs, a channel selector and a power switch.

 

[prcguy]

At least the WINSYSTEM is not on every repeater pair on every FM band.

There are 8 GMRS repeater pairs. The WINSYSTEM is consuming at least 8 pairs and one simplex freq in So Cal, its pretty bloated.

 

[MTS2000des]

Either way, It doesn't upset me. The folks that enjoy those frequencies, as we say in the south "Bless their hearts". Enjoy. My radio has two knobs, a channel selector and a power switch.

With only 8 channels, kind of hard to QSY when the same motormouths are tying up all channels. Just saying. Let someone else enjoy the service. The rules (oh I know, no one likes being told NO in today's "consequence free USA") say everyone has to share. Rules. Silly me.

 

[smittie]

From what I can see thus far looking at myGMRS.com, traveler repeaters are typically on channel 15 or 16 with input and output tone of 141.3. Given that I am a mile off of I-15 and my intention is to provide a repeater for the community and travelers, I might still do that. I just don't want to get caught up in this cat fight over linked vs not linked, mine vs ours vs theirs.

 

[03msc]

Those that are in these areas where it’s saturated as has been described, have you filed any complaints with the FCC?

Don’t say there’s no rule against it or that they won’t do anything, my question is have you filed a complaint. It would, at the least, get it on the books and in their minds. Will they shut it down? Maybe not this month or even this year but if they get several complaints about the same issues from various locations around the country, you never know where it might go.

I saw a video on, I think, the Ham Radio 2.0 channel on YouTube a few weeks ago talking about the FCC getting on to a GMRS licensee. I know it’s uncommon but my point is if you have a valid complaint then it would be better to file it officially than just complain on forums or Facebook groups.

I’m not implying that I don’t think you have valid complaints because this thread has shown that you do. Even if it’s technically not against the rules, rules can be changed. Changes have been suggested in this thread. Good ideas. File complaints and let’s see how it goes.

I already said that I feel like the Arkansas group has been implementing it well in that they aren’t over-saturating the state. Basically one pair in use in a given area and no cost to use the repeaters. Clearly some areas haven’t been so lucky. That’s unfortunate.

My point? Sitting back and throwing up hands certainly won’t change anything. Is it guaranteed that filing a complaint will? No. But it’s certainly more likely to get noticed than only some comments in a forum thread.

(But it’s been good to read the comments, don’t get me wrong.)

 

[03msc]

From what I can see thus far looking at myGMRS.com, traveler repeaters are typically on channel 15 or 16 with input and output tone of 141.3. Given that I am a mile off of I-15 and my intention is to provide a repeater for the community and travelers, I might still do that. I just don't want to get caught up in this cat fight over linked vs not linked, mine vs ours vs theirs.

Then do a stand-alone repeater and forget about linking. If there’s an open pair in your area and a radius around you, go for it.

 

[MTS2000des]

What he said.
Put up your standalone repeater. Enjoy and operate within the rules and have fun. It is for every licensee to enjoy. No one has "rights" to a specific pair and all pairs are "open" per the rules.

 

[jbailey618]

I own a non profit repeater system in the Pacific Northwest. We currently have 6 repeaters linked and will be adding a few more over the next few years as we negotiate with site owners and raise funds. GMRS was absolutely dead in our region before I worked with a commercial communications company to deploy my first high elevation GMRS repeater. Over the next few years I was fortunate enough to add 2 more GMRS repeaters to additional high elevation commercial sites and cover 3 different communities in valleys surrounded by mountains and very rough terrain. We have now connected those, (yesterday we completed the last ones connection on top of a 4,000 ft. mountain) and now we have several rural communities connected and able to communicate with each other. A good friend of mine stated a net on one of my repeaters a few years ago and last night we had one of our most active net check-ins with I believe 99 check ins on the repeaters and 73 Simplex check ins on multiple services monitored by volunteers throughout the region. In my opinion and experience now, linking has been 100% positive. Our community is made up of ham operators who also enjoy GMRS, Public Safety Professionls that enjoy GMRS, families, retired people, young people, and people that would not have shown interest in studying to pass a test for an amateur license, but are 100% competent radio operators capable of politely and honorably using a two way radio to have conversations, facilitate and pass on emergency messages, and help others to understand and become involved in two way radio. I'm also a "Ham" but it's an absolute fact that no one needs to understand diodes, ohms law, and wavelength theory to be able to properly utilize a handheld/mobile two way radio (Do you need to know how planetary gears work in order to safely drive a car?).
GMRS fills a need very nicely and linking repeaters can absolutely be done properly to benefit all involved. Btw.. My organization does not charge for use, no membership required, and no hoops to go through. All active licensed GMRS operators are welcome and we welcome anyone from a child to a retired Grandmother to enjoy talking on our repeaters. We take voluntary donations, but again, do not require any pay to play or membership status.

 

[jbailey618]

Very simple: you're on 462.625 repeater in town A, talking to someone else in town A on repeater, being simulcasted on distant repeater on 462.600 100 miles away. You have no way of knowing another 462.600 in that area is in use, and your linked conversation just pops up and smashes whoever is using that frequency, in violation of the rules as written- and being a general EF Johnson as well.

This is where your point falls apart completely. If Repeater A on 462.550 is on top of a 4,000 foot mountain, and Operator 1 is on the north side of the mountain 20 miles from Repeater A, and Operator 2 is 20 miles South of Repeater A, neither operator using the same repeater could possibly know if there was a 3rd operator is also on 462.550 (simplex) 10 miles south of repeater A.... The entire point of a repeater is to bridge two geographical areas that could not reach each other in simplex due to distance or terrain. Linking a repeater 100 miles away doesn't change a thing.
This is absolutely no different that being in a city and having 2 dozen businesses within a mile of each other all using FRS radios on the same frequencies with multiple PL tones set. None of them can hear each other before they key, and once in a while they may key simultaneously on the same frequency with a different PL and get interference once the squelch is broken.
As long as GMRS is uncoordinated it will never be the perfect world you're looking for, regardless of linking. If you're operating on FRS and a REPEATER is in the area, then deal with it or change to one of the other 21 channels that's NOT being utilized by said repeater. You're complaining about an issue that is not an issue.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

This is where your point falls apart completely. If Repeater A on 462.550 is on top of a 4,000 foot mountain, and Operator 1 is on the north side of the mountain 20 miles from Repeater A, and Operator 2 is 20 miles South of Repeater A, neither operator using the same repeater could possibly know if there was a 3rd operator is also on 462.550 (simplex) 10 miles south of repeater A.... The entire point of a repeater is to bridge two geographical areas that could not reach each other in simplex due to distance or terrain. Linking a repeater 100 miles away doesn't change a thing.
This is absolutely no different that being in a city and having 2 dozen businesses within a mile of each other all using FRS radios on the same frequencies with multiple PL tones set. None of them can hear each other before they key, and once in a while they may key simultaneously on the same frequency with a different PL and get interference once the squelch is broken.
As long as GMRS is uncoordinated it will never be the perfect world you're looking for, regardless of linking. If you're operating on FRS and a REPEATER is in the area, then deal with it or change to one of the other 21 channels that's NOT being utilized by said repeater. You're complaining about an issue that is not an issue.

^^^^^^^What he said^^^^^^