Could the FCC "sunset" all American amateur radio?

[mmckenna]

The FCC won't care about that. They fall back on all frequencies below 512 MHz being "shared use," basically sending the kids out and telling them to play nice.

Nah, this was on a high peak overlooking our site. It wasn't 'share and be nice', this was "if we blast them with enough power, they'll just go away."

There used to be a guy who was the principal of one of the frequency advisory committees. He was a good guy on a personal level, but his philosophy was to put agencies all over each other and let them work it out between themselves.

He's been gone for some years now, and, as a result, those frequencies aren't being coordinated on top of other agencies anymore (at least not any worse than any other).

Ours was the local APCO coordinator. A real pain to deal with. He'd try to dictate what everyone else did. If he didn't agree with it, he'd hold things up. We stopped using APCO for our frequency coordination because of him. He's gone now, also, but I'm not going back.

 

[902]

Nah, this was on a high peak overlooking our site. It wasn't 'share and be nice', this was "if we blast them with enough power, they'll just go away."

That was one of the reasons we abandoned VHF while the rest of the mutual aid remained. I ended up getting 3 pairs on T-Band. That was another political debacle, but that's over now until someone decides it "has to" be narrowbanded. After I left, the next generation of fire officers tried VHF again, and came to the conclusion that simplex VHF was a poor substitute over the protected T-Band repeater system (there are geographic limitations on reuse) and went back within a week. And, the repeaters had 4 voting receivers on them (a lesson learned from VHF), so they had solid portable coverage anywhere in town and throughout the mutual aid area. I think they expanded that footprint by adding more receivers throughout the mutual aid district. VHF was untenable for that.

Those mountaintop repeaters had astronomical footprints and affected virtually all of the northwest. I suppose it can be done with sharp antenna patterns, but RFI seems to be the only manufacturer that doesn't make very basic VHF products that are woefully inadequate to protect another licensee in shared use environments.

Add to that, the FCC didn't specify which beamwidth they wanted on the application and the preparers were populating vertical BW where the really useful data was horizontal BW. It's not the same, and it's impossible to do things right to deconflict systems without the additional data.

 

[AK9R]

Folks, all this talk of FCC mandates and frequency coordinator screw-ups is interesting, but does it really pertain to the topic. Would any real or perceived need for additional VHF spectrum for public safety or business uses persuade the FCC to violate ITU frequency allocations that currently set aside part of that spectrum for amateur radio?

 

[ten13]

Anyone who thinks that the FCC can't "sunset" Amateur radio is living in a political dream world.

As we stand right now, a Federal government bureaucracy, the CDC, took away private property rights of landlords, by illegally mandating that there will be a "rent moratorium," without Congressional or local legislation, and in defiance of Supreme Court orders.

Long-standing Federal law regarding the access to the United States via the borders have been thrown into the dumpster, with hundreds of thousands of illegal aliens, many with positive covid, are allowed in, unscreened for medical, criminal, and political, backgrounds.

I could go on and on.

And just why would they "sunset" or dissolve radio communications in the hands of the population? One need only remind themselves of how the 21st Century equivalent of Amateur radio, "social media," is being controlled, directly and indirectly, by the government to limit the dissemination of information that "the government" finds "offensive," or "misinformation," without explaining why.

You can come up with all sorts of technical and "community-oriented" reasons for them not doing it, but it will all mean nothing if...and when...they decide to do it.

Time to wake up people.......

 

[alcahuete]

Folks, all this talk of FCC mandates and frequency coordinator screw-ups is interesting, but does it really pertain to the topic. Would any real or perceived need for additional VHF spectrum for public safety or business uses persuade the FCC to violate ITU frequency allocations that currently set aside part of that spectrum for amateur radio?

TBH, I don't think the FCC/country would care, especially when it comes to VHF and above.

 

[AK9R]

I believe that the ITU frequency allocations constitute a treaty between countries. Of course, treaties between countries have never been broken.

"It is a government responsibility to develop spectrum management policies that conform to the international treaty obligations of the Radio Regulations while meeting national spectrum needs."

According to the ITU, 144-146 MHz is a world-wide amateur radio allocation and 146-148 MHz is an ITU Region 2 amateur radio allocation. How would the ITU or the other signatories react if the FCC decided to reallocate 144-148 MHz to another service? Interesting question. It's worth noting that the ITU Region 2 allocation for 220-225 MHz is amateur radio primary with radiolocation secondary. The FCC has already carved out 220-222 MHz for fixed land mobile, so there goes those treaty obligations.

 

[mmckenna]

The FCC has already carved out 220-222 MHz for fixed land mobile, so there goes those treaty obligations.

I think that's a valid point. It 'could' happen, but I don't think anyone can prove that it 'will' happen. FCC has pulled some serious boneheaded things in the past, like the whole Lidago B.S. so sure, anything is possible.

As long as I've been a ham, there's been the "Gloom and Doom" amateurs. I'm sure they'll be here long after I'm gone. I'm not going to let that concern me. 4MHz of VHF spectrum is useless to the big telecom cartels. So, I'm not concerned about AT&T/Verizon lobbying for it. There's enough hams in the APCO membership to likely dissuade any serious grab from public safety users. The number of non-public safety radio users is steadily dropping due to migration to LTE networks.

On the professional side, I'd love to have access to more VHF spectrum. What I wouldn't like is sharing that new public safety spectrum with a handful of hams that would refuse to give it up. While it's a small minority, we do know that there are those hams that will cause malicious and purposeful interference to other users they don't. I'd hope that the small minority of hams that would behave that way would have a bit of respect for public safety users.

I'm certainly not losing any sleep over the suspected spectrum grab.

If agencies are really hurting for VHF spectrum, there's a ton of stuff the FCC could do to actually clean up the mess they made of VHF already.

 

[alcahuete]

While it's a small minority, we do know that there are those hams that will cause malicious and purposeful interference to other users they don't. I'd hope that the small minority of hams that would behave that way would have a bit of respect for public safety users.

I think the intentional interference would be significant. Although hams get up in arms with just about everything, nobody really cares about the 1.25m band because nobody uses it. Nobody really cares about the microwave bands, and the literal 2 dozen people who use it. 2m, however, is a different beast. There are still plenty of hams who use 2m, and I highly doubt they would let it go without a really good fight. And if they lose the fight, intentional interference it is, because everybody knows the FCC won't do a thing about it.

As far as the treaties, again, I don't think anybody cares. HF is different, because the entire world has the potential of being affected, and nobody wants that space anyway. But VHF and higher, I don't think the FCC would think twice about doing it, at least as far as treaties are concerned.

 

[mmckenna]

I think the intentional interference would be significant.

Yeah, I was trying to be kind with the wording. I think it would be a big issue. If by some chance this did ever come to pass, I certainly wouldn't want to be assigned one of those frequencies. Just hearing the antics that go on some of the local repeaters reinforces that. Looking at some of the posts on this site where people talk about purposely jamming FRS/GMRS/MURS users they don't think belong there, is enough to concern me.

As far as the treaties, again, I don't think anybody cares. HF is different, because the entire world has the potential of being affected, and nobody wants that space anyway. But VHF and higher, I don't think the FCC would think twice about doing it, at least as far as treaties are concerned.

Maybe, but if you look at the pains that were taken to prevent issues with Mexico and Canada when the US rebanded 800MHz, I think it gives us an idea of how this would go. You can also look at the FCC "Line A/Line C" requirements as well as cross border cooperation. We're not an island nation, we do have neighbors.

 

[vagrant]

I think the intentional interference would be significant. Although hams get up in arms with just about everything, nobody really cares about the 1.25m band because nobody uses it. Nobody really cares about the microwave bands, and the literal 2 dozen people who use it. 2m, however, is a different beast. There are still plenty of hams who use 2m, and I highly doubt they would let it go without a really good fight. And if they lose the fight, intentional interference it is, because everybody knows the FCC won't do a thing about it.

You make some good points, but there are at least 11 of us that use 220 here in the local area, versus nobody. It really is a fun band that is the happy medium between 2m/70cm. I have never experienced unlicensed users on the 220 repeaters either. We're craZy here though, not only do we have mobile 220 radios, but handhelds as well. Yes, radical I know. Come to think of it, I have made numerous simplex contacts on 1.25 meters up and down a good chunk of the California central valley during the VHF/UHF contests. I was of course at or above 5000' ASL giving me around 100 miles Line Of Sight and more.

 

[alcahuete]

Maybe, but if you look at the pains that were taken to prevent issues with Mexico and Canada when the US rebanded 800MHz, I think it gives us an idea of how this would go. You can also look at the FCC "Line A/Line C" requirements as well as cross border cooperation. We're not an island nation, we do have neighbors.

Yep! And I think we would do the same with 2m. We do care about our neighbors. It is the international treaties that we don't really care about.

You make some good points, but there are at least 11 of us that use 220 here in the local area, versus nobody.

LMAO!! Yep, I have used 220, CONDOR and the like, but here in California is really about the only place it is used. It just isn't big anywhere else.

 

[mmckenna]

LMAO!! Yep, I have used 220, CONDOR and the like, but here in California is really about the only place it is used. It just isn't big anywhere else.

And based off the number of —actual— 220 users, how much spectrum is really needed?
Hams are not known to be very responsible with the spectrum they are given. Ask a ham about narrow band and the majority of them will look at you like you are a nut. Setting aside the amount of spectrum for archaic modes like CW/AM on 2 meters and 70 centimeters doesn't rate high on my list, either. Sure, they are fun to play with, but the current band plans always looked like some spoiled kid making up rules to their own game. Too many paper repeaters taking up space.

If hams want to fight the imaginary demons that are clawing at their bands, they probably need to clean up their own house first.

 

[vagrant]

...here in California is really about the only place it is used. It just isn't big anywhere else.

Ahh...that I did not know. I assumed it was simply used less than 2m/70cm due to the lack of repeaters, radios and the actual band width. Still, I figured most other places had something going on throughout the U.S. Maybe we need some P25 220 radios. This way the two people that have them will enjoy it all to themselves...whether or not the FCC takes it away.

 

[Firekite]

I wish 1.25m equipment were more widely available. Like anything else, it’s usually a question of critical mass.

Anyone who thinks that the FCC can't "sunset" Amateur radio is living in a political dream world.

Anyone who thinks that they will is living in a dream world, political or otherwise. The question has never been about “can’t” but would they. There’s some legitimate argument that they “can’t” as in it wouldn’t feasible to put that genie back in the bottle or that cat back in the bag. There’s way too much going on in the 2m and 70cm ham bands to try to tell everyone their repeaters and equipment are now illegal.

 

[alcahuete]

Ahh...that I did not know. I assumed it was simply used less than 2m/70cm due to the lack of repeaters, radios and the actual band width. Still, I figured most other places had something going on throughout the U.S. Maybe we need some P25 220 radios. This way the two people that have them will enjoy it all to themselves...whether or not the FCC takes it away.

There's some use here and there in other places, but really next to nothing. California seems to be the hotspot, likely due to most other options being non-existent, as far as repeaters are concerned. The lack of available repeater equipment and radios certainly contributes to the lack of use. I always liked 220, personally. You get characteristics of both 2m and 70cm, but nobody is there. Great if you want your own "private" simplex, or you use CONDOR or such.

And based off the number of —actual— 220 users, how much spectrum is really needed?
Hams are not known to be very responsible with the spectrum they are given. Ask a ham about narrow band and the majority of them will look at you like you are a nut.

100%!! We are not good stewards of our bandwidth at all. Never have been. There is so much that can be done to make the space efficient, but we don't do it.

 

[mmckenna]

100%!! We are not good stewards of our bandwidth at all. Never have been. There is so much that can be done to make the space efficient, but we don't do it.

Heaven forbid that the old GE repeater from 1969 gets replaced….

 

[PrivatelyJeff]

Ahh...that I did not know. I assumed it was simply used less than 2m/70cm due to the lack of repeaters, radios and the actual band width. Still, I figured most other places had something going on throughout the U.S. Maybe we need some P25 220 radios. This way the two people that have them will enjoy it all to themselves...whether or not the FCC takes it away.

I think 220 would be an excellent place to allow P25/DMR amateur radio trunking (just have to figure out the IDing issues).

 

[INDY72]

Funny thing: Amateur Radio is supposedly about experimentation and trying new things... RIGHT??? But if you suggest that maybe, just maybe responsible use of spectrum by narrowbanding 2 meters, and 70 centimeters, as an idea hams scream war cries. But at least a few make use of brains and have brought digital modes like NXDN, DMR, P25, Fusion, and D-Star into the game. But the the old fogies that think they are ham gods are the most vile, cold hearted, sadistic, satanic beings except for a very few, and drive away young folks with making it all about ham gods private worlds. And the new generation of teaching all about "just memorize these answers, and later on actually learn radio, and maybe one day when you 80 or 90 you can even experiment"... The only thing useful in the amateur world now is SkyWARN, RACES, ARES in places that have good networks and good comradery with NOAA or local EMA's. Other than that, its literally more expensive CB.. And now that CB is finally going FM, its going to become interesting. And since CB is going FM due to corporate lobby, its only a matter of time before that HF, 11 Meters treaty gets a new look at in the ITU... Just the way it is fellas.

 

[vagrant]

I think 220 would be an excellent place to allow P25/DMR amateur radio trunking (just have to figure out the IDing issues).

P25 or DMR is not allowed on 1.25 meters? Since when? As to trunking, huh and why? Anyways, someone making a P25 or DMR radio for 220 would be nice, but that's not going to happen either. Limited market and thus limited number of users/sales. Honestly, I am thankful that Kenwood actually came out with 220 in the D74A. For me, the D74A replaced four others - (TH-F6A, Yaesu VR-500, ID-31A, TH-D72A) and it has even more features.

milf - There are plenty of us critical thinkers that know the amateur bands aren't controlled by "old fogies", so we don't get upset. Still, they rightfully have their own opinion of things they may not like, just like you and I do. Your post is lashing out and clearly responding to something. Trust me the water is fine. Come on in and have fun. There is a reason a radio has a really big dial, just turn it to a different frequency and have fun. Rumination is unhealthy for any one of us, recognize and stop it.

As to...Could the FCC "sunset" all American amateur radio?...still ludicrous.

 

[mmckenna]

But the the old fogies that think they are ham gods are the most vile, cold hearted, sadistic, satanic beings except for a very few, and drive away young folks with making it all about ham gods private worlds.

After getting my license, I think that was the first 'real world' thing I learned in ham radio. At first, it got me down, but then I realized it for what it was. I quickly learned to ignore anyone that acted like that.
Some of the hams that have been around for a while do a good job of tutoring the new guys. Unfortunately, at the time, it seemed like there were more that wanted to take whatever frustrations they had out on the guy with the new license. When I started thinking about what drove them to act like that, I started to pity them. To make it that far through life and still be bitter is a really sad thing.

Ham radio isn't going to go away. Might lose a few of the bands, but I don't think any of you need to run out and sell your radios before the market drops out.
If you still feel like you do, I'll be happy take them off your hands and redistribute to new hams that will be happy to have them. I won't even charge you for it.