Defund Encryption

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mmckenna

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mmc,

Encryption could be enabling bad cops through non-accountability , cops might think fist before shooting a person if they know media will roll up right away.


Maybe, but bad cops can use cell phones to avoid accountability. Technology is a tool. That tool can be used correctly or incorrectly.

And one of the solutions that has worked is to assign RX only radios to media that are loaded with encryption keys.
 

trentbob

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mmc,

Encryption could be enabling bad cops through non-accountability , cops might think fist before shooting a person if they know media will roll up right away.
Yes that is correct and as retired media who always listened to police calls and basically found my career because I was monitoring regularly at age 12 so by the time I was 16 I was a daily contributor to my local newspaper at $8 a story. If I had photos and it became front page I got $15. I had my own darkroom. This was in the late 60s when I got my drivers license.

Without my crystal controlled radios and my tunable radios I would have never had the career I retired from.

With cable and public social media ...newspapers are dead. I will stand by the fact that we just reported the news without any political bias. The way things are now with the media it has affected the way the police release information to the media or want the media or anybody with a cell phone to respond to and record what they are doing. There is no longer that relationship and understanding between legitimate media and police that we had when I started.

I'm glad I'm retired now, couldn't do my job with encryption that my area has today. I would never be able to depend on press releases 3 days after the incident occurred that were fantasy and had nothing to do with what actually happened.

Glad I'm retired LOL. Some of the ways that police calls are heard today which has contributed to rapid and deliberate encryption, understandably, is really changing our Hobby or profession in my case.

It is what it is.
 

mmckenna

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I will stand by the fact that we just reported the news without any political bias.

Something that is sadly missing. Not sure if it's advertisers that drive it, editors, owners, or what.

Saw a quadrant chart once that plotted out the different news sources for where someone thought they fell on the political scale. Was interesting to see, but not surprising. With a few exceptions, it seems like many news sources have taken a bent in one direction or the other. Even the ones that seem to avoid that tend to get accused of bias if they report on something that someone else doesn't like.

Or maybe, critical thought is dead.

What's your opinion on that?
 

dogtowndrums

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Good discussion. I've been a member and occasional lurker for a long time, and I usually never enter the fray.

To be transparent here, I'm a hobbyist (I grew up listening to my dad run EMS calls on a 4 channel crystal scanner), but I also spend a little money and time on streaming feeds to BCFY for others to listen to online. I have to admit my bias. Also, I'm neither from nor live in California. I just happened to see this pop up in the active feeds.

My city and our big sister city's PDs are encrypted across the board. The state police and county sheriff's dispatch traffic are not. We tried to resist this when it went into effect, but city governments tend to defer to their PDs authority in these cases. The arguments were made by these two city PDs that they didn't want perps listening in on cell phone apps to real time traffic. While that argument my have merit in some isolated cases, the effect of keeping this information from the public and especially the press has caused a lack of ability for reporters to cover the PD in real time. One particular PD has been in turmoil for some time due to high turnover, violent crime rates, a questionable officer-involved shooting, the firing and reinstatement of that officer, and now that same department's response to protests. I believe that the residents of that city have a good case to appeal to the Mayor and Council to take steps to remove encryption from dispatch and normal operations traffic. Police in general are under a lot of scrutiny right now, and rightfully so. We give law enforcement a tremendous amount of authority and funding. I believe that giving the public and the press access to dispatch traffic and making sure that police traffic occurs over the provided LMR network would be a step in the right direction if these departments want to regain the public's trust. Since they began encrypting all traffic, the PDs control all of the information that makes it out of the department to the public. In situations like the officer-involved-shooting that I mentioned above, that gives the PD and city government a chance to get out ahead of the story or stonewall it altogether. Sure, the encrypted radio traffic can be FOIAd after the fact, and frequently is by watchdog groups and the press. Unless someone is killed, a video turns up, enough people saw something questionable happen, or a reporter just has a hunch, it is hard to know when and what to FOIA.

There is no question that local and state governments have the power to tell the departments that they fund how to operate. That includes how they communicate. That includes encrypting radio traffic and using their own cellular devices in the course of doing what the government pays them to do. Also, all four of the departments that I mentioned above use the same statewide P25 network that was built after the state legislature approved the funds and the governor signed it into law. The state government maintains the network, and that gives the legislature and governor a say in how it is used. The purse strings are a big determining factor, and as a matter of fact, since the federal government provides matching funds, grants, equipment, etc. to the states and locals, they may have a say in the matter as well.

This discussion really doesn't have much to do with the FCC, who really doesn't care what happens on licensed frequencies so long as the licensees adhere to the rules concerning power, number of users, antennas, bandwidth, and when/how they ID their stations. As far as I know, the only restrictions the FCC enforces on encryption occur in the amateur and possibly broadcast bands.

It seems that many present our oversight of law enforcement in a very restrictive, binary way. That's unfortunate. I hate to have to clarify, because I believe that it is kind of insulting to readers capable of abstract thought, and I honestly don't believe that I should have to say it. Still, I am not anti law enforcement. I worked a couple years in EMS on night shift in some of the toughest neighborhoods that central Arkansas has to offer, and still do work in emergency medicine. I know a lot of LEOs in all these departments because I've worked a lot of scenes with them. I know the lion's share of them to be people like you and me who have a tough job, but also take the law and their oaths and responsibility to the citizens seriously. Just like any profession from burger flipper all the way up to CEO, there are some lazy and self-serving people in their ranks. If you put a badge and a gun on a pile of garbage, it is still a pile of garbage. There are also some truly awesome individuals in there, too. I've witnessed examples of all of these things. With the amount of power that we give them over our everyday lives, including the ability to use escalation of force all the way from verbal engagement up to lethal force, there is a need for broad oversight.

As mentioned above, the news media has changed so much that, unfortunately, providing them with radios isn't enough. I think that a lot of the decline of the traditional fourth estate is due to advertising and funding, but also a lot of it is due to politics in general where reporters have to clamor for access. Since I began streaming fire and EMS, I've taught a few reporters how to listen to the calls going out to determine where the news is. "Listen for the 27, 4, 29 codes and pay attention when the dispatcher tells a unit to hold back or hold short." Only a few print reporters were interested in that. Most of the television and many print reporters (including some of the big anti-cop sensationalists) didn't care to know how to listen. So it goes.
 

trentbob

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Something that is sadly missing. Not sure if it's advertisers that drive it, editors, owners, or what.

Saw a quadrant chart once that plotted out the different news sources for where someone thought they fell on the political scale. Was interesting to see, but not surprising. With a few exceptions, it seems like many news sources have taken a bent in one direction or the other. Even the ones that seem to avoid that tend to get accused of bias if they report on something that someone else doesn't like.

Or maybe, critical thought is dead.

What's your opinion on that?
Honestly, when I started as a 16 year old who went to bed with his boots on and his radios going, hoping for something big to happen, all I wanted was to get that shot. The big one. So I did it 3 times, 4 times a week.

Even when I was covering the White House and had White House credentials and interviewed and photographed presidents from Clinton to Obama it was still just my job. I remember when I was the only photographer in the AP pool that was allowed into Princeton University to photograph Hamid Karzai the president of Afghanistan a week after his limousine was hit with a mortar. I got strip-searched and the dogs went through my bag. With all the presidents I had dealt with I never had that kind of treatment. Wasn't thinking politics at all, just wanted to get the job done and spoke with the president of Afghanistan face to face for 5 minutes. I had no political view with that.

We are going back aways. It's different now and everything is politically motivated in the media one way or the other. My leanings are immaterial here.

I will say this, we didn't have encryption then. It wasn't a factor. It was very few people who listen to police calls other than ham operators, serious hobbyist, First Responders and media types all with good intentions.

Police calls were not available for free in a second to Thugs and criminals.

The media was entirely different than it is now, people have no idea how censored American News is now. It is all slanted one way.

As encryption continues our news will be more seriously censored. No one will know the real truth. It's always better to get it from the source before it's rewritten three times.
 

mmckenna

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Honestly, when I started as a 16 year old who went to bed with his boots on and his radios going, hoping for something big to happen, all I wanted was to get that shot. The big one. So I did it 3 times, 4 times a week.

Dang, that was pretty good money for a 16 year old.

Sounds like your experiences apply well in this discussion. I appreciate your input.


The media was entirely different than it is now, people have no idea how censored American News is now. It is all slanted one way.

Yeah, ain't that the truth. Unfortunately many assume their chosen news source is THE only correct one. Minds have been shut tight, and I don't see much that can be done to change that. Just looking at one of the recent posts Refund Subscription shows you how twisted the opinions are.

As encryption continues our news will be more seriously censored. No one will know the real truth. It's always better to get it from the source before it's rewritten three times.

I believe it. However there are still a lot of open radio systems, yet we still have the same biases. I think truth has become totally irrelevant for some. It's more about finding the narrative that supports their current opinion on a given subject. That's one of the issues I have with internet sources for anything, including supposed recordings of radio traffic. Too many opportunities for people to edit radio traffic or videos to tweek public opinion in their chosen direction.
 

mmckenna

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Good discussion. I've been a member and occasional lurker for a long time, and I usually never enter the fray.

…………….

As mentioned above, the news media has changed so much that, unfortunately, providing them with radios isn't enough. I think that a lot of the decline of the traditional fourth estate is due to advertising and funding, but also a lot of it is due to politics in general where reporters have to clamor for access. Since I began streaming fire and EMS, I've taught a few reporters how to listen to the calls going out to determine where the news is. "Listen for the 27, 4, 29 codes and pay attention when the dispatcher tells a unit to hold back or hold short." Only a few print reporters were interested in that. Most of the television and many print reporters (including some of the big anti-cop sensationalists) didn't care to know how to listen. So it goes.

That's good stuff, thanks for hopping in.

I do believe that the news organizations are focused more on profits than truth. And some reporters already have a bias.

Not going to lie and claim I know what the solution is to that. I'd hope that educated people would see what's going on, but I'm under the impression that many are blind to anything but their own opinions. News doesn't matter, finding information that supports opinion does.
 

trentbob

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Dang, that was pretty good money for a 16 year old.

Sounds like your experiences apply well in this discussion. I appreciate your input.




Yeah, ain't that the truth. Unfortunately many assume their chosen news source is THE only correct one. Minds have been shut tight, and I don't see much that can be done to change that. Just looking at one of the recent posts Refund Subscription shows you how twisted the opinions are.



I believe it. However there are still a lot of open radio systems, yet we still have the same biases. I think truth has become totally irrelevant for some. It's more about finding the narrative that supports their current opinion on a given subject. That's one of the issues I have with internet sources for anything, including supposed recordings of radio traffic. Too many opportunities for people to edit radio traffic or videos to tweek public opinion in their chosen direction.
So here is where I stop sharing. Thanks for your comments, I did have a long and rewarding career internationally. Good retirement and many memories.

I'm so disgusted with what's going on today even as a retired seasoned newsman I can't watch the news anymore. In my latter years I followed financial news and reported on that more than anything else. When I look at CNBC my head spins and I just can't deal with the total utter BS misleading investors in our country. Given everything else that's going on I just don't want to see it anymore. My local area police have become totally encrypted secondary to this civil unrest which we have none of.

I'm in Pennsylvania where the governor still has his boot on our neck and we can't breathe. Don't believe the stories that we are open for business, it's not true.

Thanks for this participation in a very good thread and thanks mods for not censoring it or immediately shutting it down.(y)
 

tsalmrsystemtech

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This debate talking about encryption is nice to see how people have a huge passion for this hobby. I have been listening for years now and Encryption is just hear to stay forever now. There is no turning back the clock now. There are agencies where all of Law Enforcement are encrypted as well as their Fire Service radios too now. 100 percent across the board now.

Once the Fire Departments started encrypting their communications we are knew this hobby is coming slowly to an end eventually. It's just gotten so crazy that fire departments are on board with this encryption now. Southern California is so huge on encryption now that you hear about another city daily encrypting their communications at such an alarming rate that there is not much LE left at all. Now a certain county encrypted all of the fire too. Pretty speechless at this point. I am left for no words except enjoy the states that are somewhat still in the clear.

We are already hearing that there is one city up in Northern California Mammoth Lakes PD using First Net and loves it. They are still using an old Analog VHF ancient old system that is barely used since its in a rural county in the mountains area. So from going from an ancient old VHF straight to FirstNET is a complete game change.

VHF Analog straight to FirstNET. Stomach that blow to your gut.
 

mmckenna

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VHF Analog straight to FirstNET. Stomach that blow to your gut.

And considering the terrain around there, it's doubly surprising. Might work fine for Mammoth Lakes PD right there in town, but it ain't going to work for the county sheriff. I've done a lot of camping and ATV'ing out that way, and cellular coverage is spotty at best, especially north of Mammoth Lakes.

For a small department, FirstNet can make some sense when facing the costs of building out an entirely new system. For a town the size of Mammoth Lakes, $1 million would not be out of the question if you looked at new repeaters, receivers, mobiles, portables and dispatch consoles. If they've let the system go that far, its expensive to recover.

I've read the article on that. I'm sure FirstNet works fine. I'm still not sure I'd trust AT&T for public safety level stuff. Some of their cell sites out there can be extremely difficult to reach in the winter.

Will be interesting to see if they stick with it long term. Financially it might be a good solution, but there's still ongoing costs, needing to keep interoperability, and having some sort of fall back.
There's gotta be some tax income in that town with all the hotels, ski resorts and eateries.

But, as for encryption, I think we'll see more agencies going to FirstNet. I'm not sure I'd trust the PTT yet. Not sure if they really solved the delay. That can be a big problem in a tense situation. I hate to say it, but there is a logical path from P25 to LTE. P25 isn't going to be going any where for a while, but there's nothing on the horizon to replace it other than LTE systems.
 

gmclam

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While I agree with everything that's been said, I still think you're going to see more encryption, not less of it, mostly on the grounds of officer safety. You could argue that there are little, if any, real cases where the use of a scanner put an officer in danger. However it doesn't matter how many times it's happened in the past. All that matters is if there's any potential to put an officers safety in jeopardy. Officer safety is going to be even more of a concern then it was, and all it takes is one incident, and the goal is for it not to happen at all.
Officer safety works both ways. Consider that the little town of Yreka California has encrypted their PD. If one of those officers was to radio for help, who is going to hear them? It would require that the sheriff has their keys and applicable radio dedicated to monitor them, whereas they otherwise could have been monitoring on a scanner.

If all citizens are a threat to LE, we're all in trouble. But I'd bet there are plenty of people listening like me that pay attention to these little agencies but are only able to help or be on the lookout if we can hear them. I have to wonder if encryption was "free" with their new digital radios or if they paid extra for it. Not a good value (to go P25 let alone encrypt).
 

norcalscan

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Officer safety works both ways. Consider that the little town of Yreka California has encrypted their PD. If one of those officers was to radio for help, who is going to hear them?
Exactly. I dove deeper in the linked comment in my above post. But the summary is rural depts going encrypted goes directly against their argument of officer safety. In a large region-wide trunked system where nearly every neighbor is on the same system, and theoretically has your encryption keys, the officer-safety is more valid. But even then, if you are on the edge, and your neighbor is VHF analog, and you are solo in a sudden hot-n-ugly situation, the officer 3 blocks away on VHF will never know for maybe 10+ minutes, and your closest agency backup is 20min away.

I have to wonder if encryption was "free" with their new digital radios or if they paid extra for it. Not a good value (to go P25 let alone encrypt).

Don't quote me, this is from very reliable sources but still 2 degrees from the people who signed the contracts/grants, but my understanding is if a system purchase uses DHS grant funds for all or a portion of it, then any encryption that occurs on it must be AES256. There is a new Motorola P25 700 Phase 2 system going in next to me to replace VHF analog. The radios and system has ADP (I think?) available by default for "free", or a forgotten line item in the purchase. It was turned on recently for a few talkgroups for some sensitive traffic during a major catastrophic event, and I believe since been turned off. The system wasn't "live" but had a few sites operational near the incident that could support this traffic. I believe the AES encryption was a very pricey line item in the proposal that didn't make it to the final purchase.

@norcalscan
Can you elaborate on this? I think I am thinking along the same lines as you but I'm curious about this, specifically the restrictive part.
Thanks!
I'll message you to not detract from the thread topic...
 
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It's shame the old guy got hurt. But he did get in the officers' faces when he was clearly told to leave the area. Doubtful the officer intended to knock him down. Hard to feel sorry for an agitator who intentionally gets into the fray in an "in your face" kind of way with police officers. The guy was not some random innocent victim. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes, no matter what your age. I feel a lot sorrier for the business owners (including blacks) who've had their businesses destroyed by lawless thugs.

I wonder if it possible to be able to cause a disruption in the radios, or perhaps scan for encryption like this man was being accused of?
 

mmckenna

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I wonder if it possible to be able to cause a disruption in the radios, or perhaps scan for encryption like this man was being accused of?

No.

Depending on the radio model, there are only a couple of options:
Near Field Communications (NFC). Very short range, as in inches. Radios should be locked down.

BlueTooth and BlueTooth Low Energy. More range, wouldn't need to get that close to the radio. Some radios can be programmed/read via BT, but it would take a minute or two (at least) to download the info for the whole radio. Like cell phones, pairing needs to be done, BT is encrypted.

WiFi. Often used for programming, but can be used for voice traffic, data, etc. Again, would take some time to down load the codeplug for the radio.

LTE. Data communications, FirstNet, etc. No need to get that close to the radio. Encrypted, etc.

RF. No need to get that close to the radio.

So far I haven't seen anything factual or backed up that would suggest that is what he was trying to do. The radios should be locked down. And there's easier ways to do this. Even if they downloaded the entire codeplug of the radio, there's going to be a lot of info missing, like encryption keys, trunked system keys, etc.

Could that have happened? Maybe, but it would take more than walking up and getting a device close to the radio for a few seconds. Radio interfaces should be locked down. Read/Write passwords should be in place.


No, I think this is totally unrelated and certain segments of the media are attempting to justify what happened, or otherwise cast doubt on what we do actually know.
 
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No.

Depending on the radio model, there are only a couple of options:
Near Field Communications (NFC). Very short range, as in inches. Radios should be locked down.

BlueTooth and BlueTooth Low Energy. More range, wouldn't need to get that close to the radio. Some radios can be programmed/read via BT, but it would take a minute or two (at least) to download the info for the whole radio. Like cell phones, pairing needs to be done, BT is encrypted.

WiFi. Often used for programming, but can be used for voice traffic, data, etc. Again, would take some time to down load the codeplug for the radio.

LTE. Data communications, FirstNet, etc. No need to get that close to the radio. Encrypted, etc.

RF. No need to get that close to the radio.

So far I haven't seen anything factual or backed up that would suggest that is what he was trying to do. The radios should be locked down. And there's easier ways to do this. Even if they downloaded the entire codeplug of the radio, there's going to be a lot of info missing, like encryption keys, trunked system keys, etc.

Could that have happened? Maybe, but it would take more than walking up and getting a device close to the radio for a few seconds. Radio interfaces should be locked down. Read/Write passwords should be in place.


No, I think this is totally unrelated and certain segments of the media are attempting to justify what happened, or otherwise cast doubt on what we do actually know.

Thanks I thought that was the case, i looked for myself and only found an ugly conversation about the president. I really appreciate the clear answer.
 

trentbob

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I wonder if it possible to be able to cause a disruption in the radios, or perhaps scan for encryption like this man was being accused of?
NO!... I concur with mcKenna, he's the man that would know on this site, I'm sure he won't like me saying that LOL.

Congratulations on your first post after joining this afternoon. Welcome to RR... Bob.
 

jpm

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Are they using that Bozo ADP encryption. One county just opened up their radio system and only figure this is what is used why would they pay for aes etc. .
 

mmckenna

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Are they using that Bozo ADP encryption. One county just opened up their radio system and only figure this is what is used why would they pay for aes etc. .

ADP = ARC4 encryption.
Motorola was selling their radios with ADP included and encouraging system admins to use it. At the time, no one else was supporting ADP, so it essentially locked users into the Motorola brand. Great for Motorola, awful for taxpayers. Took many years of complaints, finally the feds said that AES needed to be the standard. No teeth behind that as far as I know, but it kept newer systems from getting locked in to one vendor. Other manufacturers have started supporting ARC-4 to compete.
The whole premise behind APCO Project 25 was to standardize and allow multiple vendors to bid on the same projects. Motorola's ADP stunt was a slap in the face to that. APCO screwed the proverbial pooch on the Project-16 standard, too many interpretations and none of them interoperable. The Feds doing their best to keep P25 what it was intended is a good thing. Some of the purchasing officials that buy the radios for large agencies don't understand this stuff and will fall for whatever the sales department tells them. Forcing this was a really good idea.

Buying AES-256 capability in a radio isn't all that expensive. When you look at the price of a higher tier Motorola, Kenwood, EF Johnson, Harris, etc. it's chump change. Yeah, AES-256 costs some money, but it's a better encryption protocol.
 
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