Emergency Landing At JFK

[GB1952]

The whole incident could have been handled better,you dont hear of this type of incident everyday,i have to say the pilot was a little arrogant,but i dont know all the facts either.

 

[VE5JL]

Arrogant pilot with no respect for the controller or other aircraft initially accepts clearance to land on 22 but with localizer problem compounded by gusty crosswinds states he will declare an emergency to get his runway of choice. Thats all well and good under the circumstances, and as the controller stated was a requirement to get that runway. OK, so why was he being an assH as the controller tried to accomodate the special need? His fabricated emergency prevented him flying the runway heading or making a turn to 180 for orderly sequencing? Sounded like the controller was making decisions so as to impact as few aircraft as possible while preparing him for an orderly approach to 31R while the pilot wanted no part in it. The sound of his voice says it all.

I think you have it right with the pilot concerned about the ILS not working and the crosswinds. Bottom line he is an a** and there should be an investigation.

73's

Joe

Today Is When © 2010

 

[immelmen]

One doesn't need to be a pilot to listen and/or comment about the situation. :roll:

No, they don't need to be...but they probably should be in order to have an intelligent, educated discussion about it....

I didn't know we had so many airline pilots on the forum. That's really neat! What kinds of planes do you all fly?

typed in the LRJET, EMB145, B737 and B757 with about 8000 hours between them.

I was thinking the same thing! So many judgments without knowing all the facts...

Exactly...there is hardly any real information on this tape from which to draw conclusions other then what is in its title...the flight declared and landed.

 

[poltergeisty]

Here are the facts: Aviate, navigate, communicate.

Any questions?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:ST47/Aviate,_Navigate,_Communicate.

Oh ya! I'm type rated in wine...

 

[Colin9690]

You are correct in the fact that the PIC has the final authority BUT he does NOT have the right to disobey ATC instructions without an explanation. Failure to comply with ATC instructions just because you are exceeding cross wind components is not good or valid! Now if he was to declare emergency fuel, which he did not do (actually he never stated the nature of the emergency) the I could go along with it. Based on the stress the controller obviously was working under, a simple compliance with the controllers coordinated instructions and allowing them to sequence AAL2 to the requested/required runway would have been the proper thing to do. Some pilots think they are the only airplanes in the sky! They can themselves cause havoc to an already stressed system in the North East Corridor. He wanted his way and got it, for now. An investigation will take place whether it was sent to Fox News or not! All declared emergencies are investigated. The pilot/incident will be sent to Flight Standards for this one and I'm sure there will be some required answers from American Airlines.

Absolutely correct. The PIC has the final say in the operation of the flight, but ATC instructions must be followed unless an emergency is declared. Obviously an "emergency" was declared, but for frivilous reasons. If the PIC wanted to change runways, the approach should have been abandoned and a missed approach declared. Keep in mind that declaring an emergency and the need to land immediately is understandable if they had a critical fuel level, but this apparently was not the case. Seems the PIC just wanted to push everyone else out of the way because they are too lazy to pull out the missed approach charts and come around again.

 

[poltergeisty]

in vino veritas

Re-elaborate on the phrase above and why it's not such a good idea to allow a controller to fly the plane.

2002 Überlingen mid-air collision - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


In this day and age we will have a lot of controllers retiring that have been in the biz sense Reagan's wrath. Which means less experienced controllers are going to be controlling traffic above the skies in the future. I don't know about you, but I'm trusting the PIC with the thousands of hours of experience. Weather, avionics, YOUR BRAIN, commonsense and logic play a very important part in flying.

 

[SteveEJ]

The Pilot did not exercise "Common Sense" at all. Declaring ones own priority while abandoning the overall air traffic picture did not only place him and all aboard in danger but other aircraft and all that were on them as well. As a retired controller AND pilot I appreciate the efforts on both sides. A lack of information on the Pilots part indicates to me that they were way behind in situational awareness. That aircrew knew the winds when they were well away from the airport. ATIS and company weather briefings do this. Also, they are required to report the ATIS code that they have and if not current instructed to get the latest code, ie: weather from the ATIS frequency. Waiting to the last minute and then forcing your will on the traffic situation is not wise. Planning ahead, ie: Telling the controller on initial contact that you REQUIRED a different runway, rather than waiting to the last minute, would have been the proper way of doing things. The FAA Manuals REQUIRE the pilot advise the controller of the nature of emergency as a minimum. The PIC did not do that, nor did he provide any indirect information. The controller acted correctly by clearing the way and allowing the aircraft to land on the north west runway, knowing there would be a complete investigation later. The controller was caught between the runways the airport authority allowed him to use, the weather and an arrogant and unwise pilot. The controller was the most correct.
What the PIC should have done is:
Knowing ahead of time, through the ATIS or monitoring the frequency, have told the controller he could not accept the runway when it was assigned to him. This would have allowed the ATC system to effectively sequence him with other aircraft.
If the PIC was forced to declare an emergency then he should have stated the nature of emergency, fuel remaining in time, his request, number of personnel on board and any other information THEY felt was necessary. In this case the PIC did not do any of these.

Controllers are put between the rock and a hard place most of the time. They do NOT close runways, the airport authority does, they do NOT assign runways on a whim, the runway use plan designed by other entities do, they do NOT schedule aircraft to airports, they deal with companies that over schedule, and they can NOT make weather go away.

Now for the training: I am one of the post Reagan era controllers. I will state with the utmost confidence that all controllers go through years of the most intense training I have ever seen and participated in prior to them being certified on a position. Along with that they have more experienced controllers and supervisors around them all the time. Yes there will be a small decrease in experience BUT even with that they are the BEST in the WORLD at what they do!

My respect goes out to all controllers and pilots. With that said, arrogance and irresponsibility has no place in aviation. Especially when they are flying for hire.

SteveEJ

 

[poltergeisty]

Sir, I appreciate and admire your background, but let truth steer you on course...

The winds again increased, exceeded the characteristics of the plane, and he was forced to have another option," said Steve Abraham, of the JFK Controller union. "He had no choice. He couldn't land 22L, it would have been illegal for him."

Runway closure at JFK Airport blamed for creating dangerous landing situations | 7online.com


Aviation Safety - What Is An Emergency? | All Things Aviation Informing, Educating & Entertaining Pilots

SmartCockpit - Boeing 767


One thing I noted from the audio was the the localizer wasn't functioning. Or at least that is what the PIC indicated. Had it been a reduced crab angle could have been achieved...

 

[SteveEJ]

The best course for the PIC would have been to refuse the runway assignment on initial contact. If then they still assigned that runway then declare the emergency right then. Waiting till the last minute was wrong and placed more than his aircraft in jeopardy. I have had this happen to me several times. Provide all the information up front, the pilot accepts the runway assignment then even though nothing changes the pilot demands something else at the worse possible time, after we worked to get them in position with other aircraft, etc.. The workload increase, when the aircraft is closer to the airport, is great.

Now for the controller/union rep there. They agreed that the pilot needed to go to the different runway. I am not contesting that. I am contesting that the pilot waited till the last minute, forced his will on the ATC system at the wrong time. The wrong time! Not the wrong request!

SteveEJ

 

[poltergeisty]

Perhaps after hearing what the surface wind was after the controller gave the clear to land it was then that the PIC decided to wave off?

Of course we don't know enough about the conditions. If the WX in the FMC (or ATIS ) indicated what the wind was prior to the FAF then yes, the PIC should have requested the other runway as it is normally what you do...

Declaring an emergency would be the last thing a pilot would do. Who wants to fill out paper work? Right?

 

[rdale]

Declaring an emergency would be the last thing a pilot would do. Who wants to fill out paper work? Right?

What sort of paperwork is involved with that?

 

[rmiller818]

What sort of paperwork is involved with that?

I was talking to a Tower controller, he said typically they have to fill out a report and that would include at least a statement from the pilot of what happened.

 

[poltergeisty]

What sort of paperwork is involved with that?

http://tinyurl.com/report1A :lol: :lol:

 

[com501]

The PIC has every right to declare, and he isn't obligated to communicate anything of the nature unless he has time or the inclination. 'Unable' is sufficient as far as a controller is concerned.

When the aircraft is on the ground, it is up to the NTSB, FAA and the pilot's employer to decide what action is taken if any.

Oh yeah, I may be a radio geek, but I am also an ATP, CFII. I don't fly much anymore, I prefer to run my steam trains.

 

[Webheadfred]

Tense situation. I agree with the pilot. A 35 knot crosswind component is dicey at best. In a critical phase of flight, the nature of emergency isn't important. The pilot stated his intentions and to get everyone out of his way. I'm sure ATC sorted it all out on the ground. Nice job by the controller.

 

[majoco]

Pilots or wannabees?

 

[Webheadfred]

ATC. 28 years and counting. ZMA, PBI, TYS. Wanna be pilot.

 

[deskjockeyone]

Private Pilot Viewpoint

Any small plane flying visual flight rules (VFR) is required to have 1/2 hour of fuel reserve. An instrument rated flight like this, needs more than 45 minutes of fuel in reserve. Thus, the airliner running low on fuel argument is a tough one to accept.

Sounds like both the controller and pilot are to blame, to what degree? It depends on why the emergency was called. It would be interesting to see the pilots statement on this.