FAA ATA-100 Data Discussion

[gcgrotz]

TinEar:

I can verify any ZDC freqs for Buck's Elbow since it covers this area quite well. I can hear all the controllers on both VHF and UHF. Let me know if I can help.

 

[TinEar]

Okay, I'll take you up on that offer. These are the freqs listed in the ATA-100 document for Bucks Elbow. If you could check them - and any others you might hear or know of co-located there - it would be appreciated.

BUCKS ELBOW RCAG 121.67500 HIGH DISCRETE
BUCKS ELBOW RCAG 133.20000 LOW/HIGH
BUCKS ELBOW RCAG 135.40000 LOW DISCRETE
BUCKS ELBOW RCAG 263.10000 LOW DISCRETE
BUCKS ELBOW RCAG 282.20000 LOW/HIGH
BUCKS ELBOW RCAG 284.70000 HIGH DISCRETE
BUCKS ELBOW RCAG 296.70000 LOW DO NOT PUBLISH
BUCKS ELBOW RCAG 371.90000 HIGH

Alan

 

[gcgrotz]

Wilco Alan, they are already in my scanner, I was listening to some of them today.

What exactly is RCAG?

I've never heard anything on 296.700, I have one source that calls it Amber 04 - What's that? The others simulcast with VHF.

Somewhere I have the alternate for 132.85 (also on buck's) approach that is located on Piney Mtn (the alternate that is, found it with closecall when I was up there - the CHO radar is there), and the active UHF.

BTW, 128.600 is listed for Elkins WV but sometimes I hear the controllers and sometimes not. I think they must xmit from Buck's from time to time. Never found a corresponding UHF for it.

It might be monday before I get all of that, the AOR scanner and all the notes are in my company truck.

 

[n3bxv]

What exactly is RCAG?

RCAG = Remote Communications Air/Ground facility, or in plain english a FAA remote transmit/receive site.

 

[gcgrotz]

Thanks, I was just googling that.

 

[n4voxgill]

looks like a good start to making another reliable database for milair. No one has a lock on the information.

 

[gcgrotz]

TinEar and others:

Here's what I found. Sorry for the delay, I think the holiday messed with controller assignments and freqs but all is back to normal now.

BUCKS ELBOW RCAG 121.67500 HIGH DISCRETE paired with 284.700
BUCKS ELBOW RCAG 133.20000 LOW/HIGH paired with 282.200
BUCKS ELBOW RCAG 135.40000 LOW DISCRETE paired with 263.100

BUCKS ELBOW RCAG 296.70000 LOW DO NOT PUBLISH I've never heard this in use but will keep monitoring. Recent list from MT magazine has this also in Whaleyville, NC and lists it as Amber 04. What is it supposed to be?
(BTW, I have the ZDC list MT published in an excel file if you'd like it let me know)

ALSO, I think I mentioned, 128.600 listed as Elkins, sometimes it seems to be from Buck's and sometimes I can't hear it. It's like they switch it as needed for traffic. I hear handoff's to both Cleveland and Indy from this freq.

BUCKS ELBOW RCAG 371.90000 HIGH Nothing heard. MT has this paired with 133.275 at Buck's Elbow but all I ever hear on that are planes, no controller, so I believe it is not at Buck's.

Also at Buck's is the Potomac Approach that handles CHO and the Valley airports as well as the small private airports like Louisa, Orange and Gordonsville. (They were handling the plane that crashed trying to land on a farm in fog and rain a few weeks ago) Their freqs are 132.850/323.125 with an alternate of 120.525 which is located at Piney Mountain just north of CHO. I've run close call at Piney and thats the only thing that came up.

CHO tower is on 124.500 located at the tower. Can't verify their UHF as it isn't simulcast. I have 242.700 from somewhere but the state airport guide has something else.

If my work ever takes me to Lynchburg or Lexington (Buena Vista) I will try to verify those freqs. I can hear the planes but not the controllers. If I get in the right places sometines I can hear BV from hilltops.

Anyway, there you go! Keep us posted on any other findings.

 

[TinEar]

Excellent piece of work! I'm going to take your info and match it up against everything I've got including notes here and there to make sure it all coincides with your findings. Nothing beats on-site listening to prove or disprove what's found in the lists - especially since we know the FAA's ATA-100 info is outdated in many cases.

Re 371.9: The master ZDC list I've got shows this freq to be at Elkins for the Morefield Sector 3. No doubt this is why you're not hearing it at Bucks Elbow.

I'll get back to you once I've done more comparisons. Did receive your PM also.

Edit: The 128.6/387.1 freq pairing is indeed used at both Bucks Elbow and Elkins as you surmise. That's exactly as it shows on the master ZDC list I have. They list those freqs as the Elkins 1 Sector but with transmitting capabilities from both locations as priorities warrant.

Re 296.7: That freq shows on my list as transmitting from Norfolk and its use as the Yorktown 50 Sector. It's a little different than every other freq on my list because all the priority uses columns are blank. It's the only one listed that way.

Alan

 

[gcgrotz]

Well, that's a help. The next time 128.6 is coming in I'll take a listen to 387.1 and report back. Would that explain why just today I heard a plane on 133.75 reading back his handoff to Indy? Is that at Elkins too maybe? My list had that paired with 371.9.

 

[TinEar]

Mixing apples with oranges on that last one....or Centers with TRACONs. The 133.75 freq is a Potomac TRACON freq for the BWI area and is paired with 254.35. However, those pairings seem to change from time to time...today, for instance, 254.35 AND 317.425 are paired with 124.55 (just checked while typing this).

Edit: Realize I didn't respond to the 371.9 freq pairing. That should be paired with 133.275, not 133.75. Transmitter at Elkins. (Or was it just a typo when you said 133.75?)

 

[gcgrotz]

Typo Typo Typo. The only thing worse than my typing is my sense of smell.

Skunk? What skunk?

 

[gcgrotz]

Re 371.9: The master ZDC list I've got shows this freq to be at Elkins for the Morefield Sector 3. No doubt this is why you're not hearing it at Bucks Elbow.

(edited for space)

Edit: The 128.6/387.1 freq pairing is indeed used at both Bucks Elbow and Elkins as you surmise. That's exactly as it shows on the master ZDC list I have. They list those freqs as the Elkins 1 Sector but with transmitting capabilities from both locations as priorities warrant.


Alan

Alan: 128.6 was active for a while Monday AM. I tried 387.1, didn't hear anything but I wasn't in a good spot. I couldn't really hear the usual UHF freqs either. I actually had to work for a while and when I got back in the truck around lunch time it was all quiet on 128.6. I'll keep checking it and report back when I get a definitive answer. It is for sure a high sector though.

 

[cipher66]

Hi Larry,

I posted that ZTL data a while ago, and it was copied verbatim from a sector map/chart from ZTL itself dated 2005. Sorry if the data was wrong but I figured it would be correct since it was from ZTL itself....

Paul

Since I am the creator of Milcom, Fedcom, and Trunkcom, first let me say thanks for the nice comments on our list. You won't find better info being passed anywhere on the net.

I get this question a lot about frequencies. Unfortunately most of the websites on the internet are posting very old (ca 1984) frequencies from the last public IRAC run. In fact, the supposedly accurate ATL ARTCC posted here in the RadioRef db in January came directly from Jack Sullivan's old Huntington Aero Guides published in the late 1980s that used that very IRAC file. So to who ever posted the ATL ARTCC to the RadioRef db, your information is 22 years old and nearly useless. Took me a couple of days to figure out why it wasn't adding up with currently reality. ;-)))

Now that the IFR Supplement is going away (which never btw included ANY ground LMR freqs) there will only be one accurate source for mil freqs left on the planet. Please indulge me a bit as I get to tout my horn here, and that is my Military Frequency Directory from Grove. It is the only publication right now that has it all - aero, lmr (both conventional and trunked), satellite, airshow - heck let's just say the works for the entire US including AK and HI. Sorry, but from what I have seen even here on RadioRef, there is a lot of old stuff and lots of holes in the milcom spectrum being passed around. If you are into mostly static, by all means plug in what you get of the net.

The problem I have found is that folks are very willing to pass around frequencies they have not yet verified for accuracy. They also have another problem -- they do not known when to throw away a frequency when it is no longer used. My deleted frequency db is nearly as large as the db with current freqs. ;-))

Since 1984 all these gov/mil bands have all changed. Heck the 225-400 MHz is undergoing a huge change right now and for at least the next 3-4 years. In three or four years the IFR Sups that are on the street now, which will no longer be available after 1 October 2006, will be useless. This will directly effect sites like AirNav as well.

We have managed to keep up on things quite well and will into the future. So if you want up-to-date info, check out my MFD (mentioned above), my monthly column in Monitoring Times, our MT-Milcom blogspot that was mentioned above and the many fine postings by some of the finest monitors in this counry to the Milcom newsgroup. There is a lot in that package to help you hear Milcom activity in your area.

73 guys and good hunting,

Larry (aka The Chief)

Larry Van Horn, N5FPW
ATC (AW) USN (Ret)
MT Assistant Editor &
Milcom/Help Desk Columnist

 

[gcgrotz]

TinEar and others:

I'm noticing a pattern when 128.6 is active on Buck's it is a high sector but when it is on Elkin's it seems to be High/low. Most of the tfc I hear on Elkins report below fl170, sometimes as low as 11000. On Buck's, they seem to be 240, 270 stuff like that. It also seems to be mainly mornings when Buck's is active. I'll try to listen an night sometime and see. Also, I have yet to hear the UHF paired freq when Buck's is active.

Maybe we should post in the WV forum to see if anyone can hear Elkins and verify the 128.6/387.1 pair there.

BTW, I found the pictures I took at Buck's (including the FAA site) after an ice storm in 1998. I will have to scan a few and then I will post them. Power was off for 5 days even though the ice only affected above 3000ft, the damage to power lines was extensive and the site was basically inaccessable for 3 days until the county sent a dozer up there to clear the road. Even then, the power lines ran down over the side and the power co couldn't get to them. The county (and the FAA and the cellular company I worked for at the time) was mainly concerned about getting a fuel truck up there for the generators.

More to come...

 

[TinEar]

Thanks very much for checking those freqs. It's appreciated. Looks like you've hit on the usage and the reason for the split transmitting locations. Agree that we now have to check out the 387.1 freq to see if it's still active. That would be a logical freq to change due to the LMR system takeover of that range. We're now up to four ZDC UHF freqs that have changed and are not contained in any of the documents - including the June issue of ATA-100 information.

I believe we're making progress though. So far, here's what it looks like:
235.625 Blackstone Sector
290.425 Franklin Sector
307.025 Possibly Potomac Sector
323.225 (Not a clue so far)

Since the 307.025 Sector is still in a guessing mode and not firmly pinned down, how about if you check to see if it matches up with the 126.8 freq if you can please? I should stress that none of the IDs provided above are official. They've been developed by following flights on the charts as handoffs were made to these new freqs and some "unofficial" input from other sources.

I also recovered a new New York Center (ZNY) freq a couple of nights ago which was 292.15. An aircraft was handed off to that freq from ZNY's 282.3 Kennedy Sector. My particular emphasis though is on fully recovering the Washington Center changes. I believe we'll see more than the four new freqs listed above.

 

[EricCottrell]

I also recovered a new New York Center (ZNY) freq a couple of nights ago which was 292.15. An aircraft was handed off to that freq from ZNY's 282.3 Kennedy Sector. My particular emphasis though is on fully recovering the Washington Center changes. I believe we'll see more than the four new freqs listed above.

Hello,

I noticed that the 2004 ZNY information letter containing sectors and frequencies expired on June 1st, 2006. While searching around I came across a plan to redesign the Airspace around NY/NJ and Philly.
http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraf...gional_guidance/eastern_reg/nynjphl_redesign/

Looks like more frequency and sector changes for the NY area in the near future.

73 Eric

 

[TinEar]

Eric, it would appear the FAA document you linked for us will primarily be concerned with TRACON air space rather than ARTCC. Their proposed solution for the plethora of flights in the NY/NJ/Eastern PA area is such a simple design that it seems improbable no one had suggested it prior to this. Basically, their proposed solution is to design airborne departure gates that split into two or three lanes once leaving airport controlled airspace -- something highway designers have been doing for 60 years. The only part of it that makes no sense is that portion submitted by the environmental group that wants all of Newark's outbound western traffic to go east out to sea, down the coast a way before swinging to west. It appears to add about 100 miles to the route for aircraft heading west. It's a noise polution solution, according to the planners. In a logical world that suggestion would be laughed off the stage. In the politically correct world of the East Coast, it may just make it past the censors.

 

[chgomonitor]

Faa Ata-100

Back to the topic at hand...

There's a few places on the net one can access the raw ATA-100 data. I'll not post the links as these files are HUGE and I don't want to burn up sources or the provider's bandwidth, but trust me - it's out there...

You can also subscribe to the format via CD from FAA, but $$$. They are considering opening up FTP access for registered users.

But if you aren't comfortable dealing with very complex, relational databases in fixed-length formats, you won't like the files. A real "government" production, to say the least. You can do it with MS Access if you know what are doing, but it's a real chore. There is an info file within each catagory which decribes the assorted sub-files, their field lengths, field data types (almost all plain text), etc. I suggest printing the info files out as they will help you define your tables and fields prior to import. Get one small thing wrong and you'll have a real mess on your hands.

There's highly accurate info for many of the things we are looking for. ARTCC, Airport ATC and a lot of other stuff. Tons of detailed specific site info.

In talking to various FAA folks there's one big lesson I've learned. When a control center (TRACON, ARTCC, etc) needs a new freq they draw them from a pool of possible availables. The facility will then use the new freq for 6-12 months in an experimental mode, checking for interference, etc. THEN they submit them for publication. So, it's not really a case of the official publications being "out of date". You best friend remains the SEARCH button on your radio. It's truly the best source of the latest info. It takes a lot of inter-agency coordination before a new freq shows up in the databases. Sometimes it takes years.

FAA ATA-100 may be our new best friend if NGIA shuts off access to their data files.

Note also that you can buy hardcopy versions of many of the FLIP's from the FAA, the same ones NGIA is talking about cutting off. Still, I really hate paper. Give me the data!

Happy Scaning! - Ted

 

[gcgrotz]

I believe we're making progress though. So far, here's what it looks like:
235.625 Blackstone Sector
290.425 Franklin Sector
307.025 Possibly Potomac Sector
323.225 (Not a clue so far)

Since the 307.025 Sector is still in a guessing mode and not firmly pinned down, how about if you check to see if it matches up with the 126.8 freq if you can please? I should stress that none of the IDs provided above are official. They've been developed by following flights on the charts as handoffs were made to these new freqs and some "unofficial" input from other sources.

I'll get those freqs plugged in today and monitor them this week and see if/what I hear. I too would like to have a better grip on the Wash Center freqs.

 

[gcgrotz]

Ok, this past Monday afternoon 128.600 suddenly went active from Buck's. The controller already had a full load of aircraft on the freq, she was sending most of them to the DRUZZ intersection and then handing them off to Potomac Approach. I flight-tracked a few of them, most went to IAD and a few (Including Alaska 004) went to DCA. She handled a few outbound flights too. The sector got quite busy later, around 4-5pm. Never heard a peep on 387.100 all afternoon. I guess this freq gets used as needed (a flexi-freq??) because this time it was definately NOT a high sector.

I didn't get to monitor the UHF freqs you gave me, they are in the scanner. I have to go over the mountain to Waynesbobo today, I'll try to stop on Afton on the way back and listen for a few minutes.

I wonder if we should move this thread to another forum?