FAA ATA-100 Data Discussion

[Navairboss]

First Time Listeners Getting Frequencies

Since I am the creator of Milcom, Fedcom, and Trunkcom, first let me say thanks for the nice comments on our list. You won't find better info being passed anywhere on the net.

I get this question a lot about frequencies. Unfortunately most of the websites on the internet are posting very old (ca 1984) frequencies from the last public IRAC run. In fact, the supposedly accurate ATL ARTCC posted here in the RadioRef db in January came directly from Jack Sullivan's old Huntington Aero Guides published in the late 1980s that used that very IRAC file. So to who ever posted the ATL ARTCC to the RadioRef db, your information is 22 years old and nearly useless. Took me a couple of days to figure out why it wasn't adding up with currently reality. ;-)))

Now that the IFR Supplement is going away (which never btw included ANY ground LMR freqs) there will only be one accurate source for mil freqs left on the planet. Please indulge me a bit as I get to tout my horn here, and that is my Military Frequency Directory from Grove. It is the only publication right now that has it all - aero, lmr (both conventional and trunked), satellite, airshow - heck let's just say the works for the entire US including AK and HI. Sorry, but from what I have seen even here on RadioRef, there is a lot of old stuff and lots of holes in the milcom spectrum being passed around. If you are into mostly static, by all means plug in what you get of the net.

The problem I have found is that folks are very willing to pass around frequencies they have not yet verified for accuracy. They also have another problem -- they do not known when to throw away a frequency when it is no longer used. My deleted frequency db is nearly as large as the db with current freqs. ;-))

Since 1984 all these gov/mil bands have all changed. Heck the 225-400 MHz is undergoing a huge change right now and for at least the next 3-4 years. In three or four years the IFR Sups that are on the street now, which will no longer be available after 1 October 2006, will be useless. This will directly effect sites like AirNav as well.

We have managed to keep up on things quite well and will into the future. So if you want up-to-date info, check out my MFD (mentioned above), my monthly column in Monitoring Times, our MT-Milcom blogspot that was mentioned above and the many fine postings by some of the finest monitors in this counry to the Milcom newsgroup. There is a lot in that package to help you hear Milcom activity in your area.

73 guys and good hunting,

Larry (aka The Chief)

Larry Van Horn, N5FPW
ATC (AW) USN (Ret)
MT Assistant Editor &
Milcom/Help Desk Columnist

 

[blantonl]

Now that the IFR Supplement is going away (which never btw included ANY ground LMR freqs) there will only be one accurate source for mil freqs left on the planet. Please indulge me a bit as I get to tout my horn here, and that is my Military Frequency Directory from Grove. It is the only publication right now that has it all - aero, lmr (both conventional and trunked), satellite, airshow - heck let's just say the works for the entire US including AK and HI. Sorry, but from what I have seen even here on RadioRef, there is a lot of old stuff and lots of holes in the milcom spectrum being passed around. If you are into mostly static, by all means plug in what you get of the net.

Larry, the IFR Supplement may be going away, but ATA-100 FAA Data is still available and released on a scheduled timetable. The RRDB 2.0 release scheduled for release on July 1st 2006 will include ARTCC Data for each of the ARTCC that is official and direct from the FAA. We will also be plotting, in realtime, ARTCC boundries using google map techniques. In a near future release we will integrate ALL ATA-100 data to include all the MOAs, Airports, and other entities - and these will be auto-updated when the FAA releases new runs of ATA-100 data.

In addition, we will be rolling out significant enhancements to the database this year that will GREATLY increase the accuracy and comphrensiveness of our Federal and Military coverage, both VHF/UHF and UTE. Frankly, our focus has been on public safety, but that is about to dramatically change.

 

[TinEar]

Something tells me that even with the ATA-100 FAA data we're still going to be doing a lot of digging for what matters to MilAir listeners - the UHF pairings. I'd like to think I'm wrong but something tells me we'll be doing what we've always done - searching, listening, comparing and rooting around to discover the UHF freqs for ARTCC/TRACON.

The other change of course is the use of 25 kHz frequency splits on UHF from the old 50 kHz standard. That's been underway for a while now but has resulted in many new frequencies with more changes ongoing.

 

[n3bxv]

Thanks Tom...I did know about that. I was wondering if there was something else in this band that is happening that we should know about.

This Band is now set aside for DoD Land Mobile Radio Use, Trunked and Conventional, like the
DoD, M/A-Com P25 Trunked systems up and running in The Washington D.C. Area and a few other places...

Something tells me that even with the ATA-100 FAA data we're still going to be doing a lot of digging for what matters to MilAir listeners - the UHF pairings. I'd like to think I'm wrong but something tells me we'll be doing what we've always done - searching, listening, comparing and rooting around to discover the UHF freqs for ARTCC/TRACON.

I agree with Alan here - The ATA-100 data is by no means perfect and doesn't seem to be updated as promptly as I would like, but it's a good starting point.

 

[blantonl]

From an ARTCC/TRACON/RCAG perspective, ATA-100 data provides everything, including frequencies that are listed as "DO NOT PUBLISH" It will be an excellent starting point for Mil-Air monitoring.

In addition, ATA-100 data provides all frequency and communications information for every airport in the country.

I doubt that Airnav pulls their data from IFR Supplements as Larry previously indicated, rather they use ATA-100 data feeds.

Here is an example of how we will release the information as part of the 2.0 release:

http://www.radioreference.com/modules.php?name=RR_D&aid=2247

 

[TinEar]

Lindsay, that data for Washington Center is severely out of date. What's the date on the CD it's published from? The info is at least a year past its "spoiled" date.

I'm speaking about the first table. I realize the second one is what's now posted in the database.

 

[blantonl]

The information is from the latest CD. How do you know it is spoiled?

 

[TinEar]

The information is from the latest CD. How do you know it is spoiled?

Because there are freqs on the list that changed at least a year ago. Nor are any of the three newest unidentified UHF freqs on the list that have been in use for several months now.

 

[blantonl]

It was the April 2006 release. I just noticed that a June 5 release is out... I'll download it and populate the database with that latest run.

 

[TinEar]

It was the April 2006 release. I just noticed that a June 5 release is out... I'll download it and populate the database with that latest run.

Very good. I'll check that out after you post it. Same link?

 

[blantonl]

I just loaded the June 6th run directly from the FAA.

If there are inconsistencies... please outline them to me, I want to understand the differences in detail...

 

[TinEar]

Same info on the new one.

First one that jumped at me is the oldest change made over a year ago. On the new table it's listed as Smyrna (low) 132.05/277.4. Those changed to 127.275/354.15. On the old table below your new list, it's listed as Sector 53-Kenton.

The second one that popped out is another change made about a year ago. This one is for Hagerstown where your new list shows it as 385.4 but it has changed to 227.125. Find it on our current table as Sector 06-Hagerstown. The UHF changed but the VHF didn't.

Both those changes are, as I say, a year or more old. Another change made several months ago was 307.025 which I believe is the Sector 04-Potomac new UHF freq. It's still listed as 381.5 on our old data table because we haven't proven it yet. The new table you posted still shows 381.5 (under Falls Church) but nothing has been heard on that freq in many months.

The other two new UHF freqs in use in ZDC are 235.625 and 323.225 - neither of which we've been able to identify yet. The first has been in use for approximately 4-5 months and the second we've just heard in this past week.

Edit: I also found one missing on your new table which I know is still in use. It's a Washington Center freq used in the Guard Dog CAP for aircraft entering/exiting the CAP area. The new table shows the VHF side - 135.525 - but not the UHF side - 288.35. They should both be listed under Falls Church on your table.

'Nuther edit: Lindsay, we're about to approach 100,000 views of the Sticky Thread for MilAir on the Maryland forum. Will the program allow six digits or will it recycle? Hope it's six.

 

[TinEar]

Might as well use this duplicate and deleted post to note something else on that ZDC table you posted Lindsay. I notice there is not a single UHF freq on the list using the 25 kHz frequency split. Every last one of them is still on the 50 kHz band plan. That should give an indication of the list's aging. How long has the 25 kHz split been in place? Just an observation, not an indictment of the ATA-100 FAA data.

 

[blantonl]

Thread started to move posts to this for this discussion.

 

[blantonl]

TinEar, thanks for your help on this.... sounds like there is some investigation to do.

One question might be, is this unique to the DC Area (Washington Center)? In addition, could these additional frequencies be part of a separate project or entity from the actual ARTCCs? For instance, MOAs, Giant Killer, Restricted Airspace locations etc?

Are they identifying on these frequencies as "Washington Center"?

 

[wa8vzq]

There are a lot of MSP ARTCC frequenices that were changed last spring (05) when th RVSM program was implemented. Those frequencies have not been updated in either the IFR Supplement or the ATA-100 data.

Lindsay - drop me either a RR PM or email wa8vzq@yahoo.com & I'll fill you in a little more

Dan

 

[EricCottrell]

Hello,

I think the FAA ATA-100 should be treated like the FCC database. Like any database they both have old or wrong data. I looked at Boston Center data months ago and noticed they had some locations that were listed in the wrong state. Boston Center was using split frequencies for a low sector where one of the frequencies is listed as a spare. I do not know if it is temporary. For the pilot the published data is only useful when entering the ATC system on the inital callup. The controllers tell the pilot the frequency changes or direct the pilot to the right frequency on inital callup if it is wrong. I have also noticed my local Airport (Logan) will change the purpose of the multiple tower frequencies based on runway usage. It works because Ground Control will direct the pilots to the right frequency.

So area monitors are important as this site can add UHF pairings and usage information to FAA info much like it adds ctcss/dcs and usage information to the FCC info.

73 Eric

 

[ksmoscanner]

Just to add some info on ZKC.....

There are numerous freqs in use in ZKC that have never been published in the FAA data. For example... 127.125/360.85 ( ZKC High Kansas City) has been active in KC for years but has never been published in any of those releases.There are many others as well. Over the last two years I have logged numerous new UHF assignments with no luck of finding them except from other area monitors on the milcom list. Ill put together a list of the ones we cant find info for.....many are already in the RR database.

Gregg in KC

 

[BMT]

I have had the same result's with ZJX as Dan has with ZKC. I search now with the same zeal I had 50 year's ago chasing girls!! Almost as much fun and a lot cheaper even when gas was 29.9 a gallon.

Try this in your area,search this FAA freq block.
323.000
323.025
323.050
323.075
323.100
323.125
323.150
323.175
323.200
323.225
323.250
323.275
323.300

BMT

 

[TinEar]

TinEar, thanks for your help on this.... sounds like there is some investigation to do.

One question might be, is this unique to the DC Area (Washington Center)? In addition, could these additional frequencies be part of a separate project or entity from the actual ARTCCs? For instance, MOAs, Giant Killer, Restricted Airspace locations etc?

Are they identifying on these frequencies as "Washington Center"?

Yup...agree there is some investigating to do. I can assure you the freqs I mentioned above are Washington Center freqs and, yes, they do call Washington Center on them.

As others have noted, the FAA data is as good as the people providing the inputs. It's no better or worse than the database at this site. Some areas have perfect freq coverage because people care enough to submit them; others are very out-of-date simply because no one takes the time to hit the "submit" button such as Larry mentioned for the Atlanta ARTCC. There are people all over the country tasked with submitting new airport freqs, for instance, to that FAA database. Some do, some don't.

However....that ATA 100 data can be a good starting point for new CivAir and MilAir listeners. It sure beats having nothing although the MilAir side of it is extremely weak.

Alan