Fairbanks Encryption

[USScanner]

Believe or not, that's probably the cheap, one-time price to pay. And at least you can always sell it. What about the $500+ a year, per resident in other taxes and fees to fund the said radio systems with the "unnecessary features"?

Don't get me wrong, I don't mind paying for the services provided by the local PD and FD. But when they already have $4K+ radios, cellphones/Blackberries AND in-car laptops with cellular broadband connection and at times they still CAN'T communicate! I find it hard to justify furthering my tax burden to fund things like encryption....

True, there is always someone in the lower 48 looking for a PSR, thats a easy sell. Considering a vehicle with over 15,000 in communications equipment that does not work well - like you said hard to justify the cost. Each radio (ht & mobile) require a 1,000 encryption module. Also a module in each repeater/simulcast radio. I doubt they will scrap the system and take a huge loss like other states or counties have. They will probably add additional sites to fix the lack of coverage. When coverage is for a state twice the size of California it can be very expensive!

 

[kikito]

I doubt they will scrap the system and take a huge loss like other states or counties have.

I doubt that too. I mean the system in question works well for the most part. It's usually the "people problem" that no amount of technology will ever solve. But the extra cost from now on with the constant software and hardware updates, maintenance, etc. that the system by nature requires on top of the extra stuff for the encryption part of it, is what makes me wonder how long it will be sustainable and/or feasible or even needed....

 

[Roy99664]

Did the DOT also move to encryption? Here on the Kenai Pennisula it appears like the whole ALMR system may have gone to encryption. I haven't had a hit from the digital system in 5 or 6 days. Looks like I now own a $500 paperweight.

 

[kikito]

Did the DOT also move to encryption? Here on the Kenai Pennisula it appears like the whole ALMR system may have gone to encryption. I haven't had a hit from the digital system in 5 or 6 days. Looks like I now own a $500 paperweight.

I seriously doubt entities like DOT went encrypted. Otherwise, that would be utterly ridiculous and even more of a total waste of money.

Maybe re-check your programming and make sure nothing is locked out.

 

[Roy99664]

Thanks, programming seems fine. Others here are experiencing the same problem. Previously We were listening to the Soldotna Troopers and our local PD on a regular basis, a few days ago all traffic stopped. The agencies on this side of the Penninsula experience frequent technical problems, and perhaps that's what's going on now. I'll keep listening and logging.

 

[kikito]

Here's just 2 recent examples where federal/state aid/grants could've been better used than for encryption:


City might lose out on money for summer wildfire helicopter:

City might lose out on money for summer wildfire helicopter - KTUU.com | Alaska's news and information source |


Northern states (including Alaska) lose heating aid to South:

Northern states lose heating aid to South: Alaska News | adn.com


I guess when people are freezing in the winter or their house burning in the summer, they can at least take comfort in that some of their local PS agencies "day-to-day chit-chat" it's not being overheard by a relative few in the whole state.....

 

[N_Jay]

Here's just 2 recent examples where federal/state aid/grants could've been better used than for encryption:


City might lose out on money for summer wildfire helicopter:

City might lose out on money for summer wildfire helicopter - KTUU.com | Alaska's news and information source |


Northern states (including Alaska) lose heating aid to South:

Northern states lose heating aid to South: Alaska News | adn.com


I guess when people are freezing in the winter or their house burning in the summer, they can at least take comfort in that some of their local PS agencies "day-to-day chit-chat" it's not being overheard by a relative few in the whole state.....

Only if you have pre-supposed that it is a zero-sum-game.

It typically is not.

 

[kikito]

N_Jay,


Since the beginning of this ALMR project, one of the main questions has always been whether or not all the needed agencies could afford to be on board and take part in the system. Funding has been an issue for most of the smaller agencies since the beginning and most of the people involved knew it.

That's not guessing or pre-supposing. It was and it is a known fact that funding was going to be a problem and THEN the current economical situation happened and of course now more than ever, many agencies still can't afford the most basic radios to be directly on the system without the current workarounds of patches, gateways, relaying, borrowing radios, etc. Heck, I wonder how many agencies haven't and don't even know how are they going to comply with the 'actual' current mandates of narrow-banding and such. And yes, VHF is the primary band of operation across Alaska.

So however many initial millions they spent already on encryption and the on-going millions for maintenance and support that was added to the project just for that "feature" could've definitely been better spent on, oh, I don't know, maybe getting everybody newer, reliable radios and training so they can talk and work effectively during emergency situations or something, which is supposed to be the other part of the mandates and conditions under which the grants were disseminated.

As it is, with all the added "safeguards" on the system and radios themselves, it's even making it difficult or even impossible for the ones that do have newer radios to get them re-programmed on the fly when they're providing assistance out of state or vice versa, when people come to our state to help during situations. Sounds to me like defeating the purpose....

 

[N_Jay]

So you are saying that you KNOW that the funds spent on encryption were eligible and for use and sufficient to fund the helicopter and/or heating costs in Oregon?

Or, I am misreading what you said.

BTW, given the system is shared with the DOD, encryption in the backbone is probably required, so the only savings would be the subscriber costs for non DOD units.

 

[jak122]

Did the DOT also move to encryption? Here on the Kenai Pennisula it appears like the whole ALMR system may have gone to encryption. I haven't had a hit from the digital system in 5 or 6 days. Looks like I now own a $500 paperweight.

I'm picking up DOT in the clear many times daily here in Juneau. I also get some encrypted and non-encrypted AST.

 

[kikito]

So you are saying that you KNOW that the funds spent on encryption were eligible and for use and sufficient to fund the helicopter and/or heating costs in Oregon?

Or, I am misreading what you said.

Of course I don't KNOW if the funds are/were eligible to be transferred to something else directly. Probably not. It's probably the usual non-sense of "well, that money comes from a different bucket" type of thing. But you cannot tell me that someone, somewhere didn't see this coming since is the same municipality/city that has been implementing and migrating to the latest and greatest 700MHz P25 system for the past 2-3 years.

According to the article I posted, the funds for the helicopter were mostly coming from a federal grant, just like the funds for the new radio system. So now the Fire Dept. will have the latest whiz-bang $4,000 radios but no efficient way to fight certain types of fires. I'm not saying that they shouldn't have gotten the radio system but they certainly can use discretion about what "features" they need and get.

Like I said, it's probably going to come down to the usual "different pot of money" situation. That still doesn't make it right or justifiable. Somebody higher-up screwed up and now as usual, it's the tax payer that will really pay for this oversight in many ways, and hopefully not with their homes or lives. Sounds like a probable lawsuit waiting to happen like the ones already in other parts of our state due to a similar situations. We will have to wait and see....

Meanwhile, even after issues like this are made public, they'll still continue to funnel federal grant money to non-priority things like encryption on an already more than suitable, top of the line radio system. You cannot tell me that someone, somewhere in the government ladder doesn't have the power to "divert" money to priority issues like this firefighting helicopter before it gets appropriated to something of much less priority.

 

[N_Jay]

There is a name for "Diverting" money from a grant to items outside the grant.

It's call fraud.

Of course the benevolent dictator can adjust all the rules to product the greatest good, but only if his view of the Greatest good lines up with your view.

All I said, was that project funding is not a zero sum game. You don't get more "there" by saving some "here".

You have taken a good bit of time arguing with me only to conclude;
"Of course I don't KNOW if the funds are/were eligible to be transferred to something else directly. Probably not. It's probably the usual non-sense of "well, that money comes from a different bucket" type of thing. . . ."

Well, guess what, the majority of the world is "the usual non-sense" if you don't know the "sense" that it works under.

I am not saying it is perfect, I am just saying it is the world we live in.

 

[kikito]

BTW, given the system is shared with the DOD, encryption in the backbone is probably required, so the only savings would be the subscriber costs for non DOD units.

Well, the DOD is a totally different monster which I'm not even including in what I'm talking about. I'm more interested in what's happening at the State and Local government level.

You know there's more expenses involved than the subscriber units. Aside from needing a higher model that supports the features, the subscriber units also need the software/firmware update to add the encryption feature among other things. Then they need the hardware modules to handle the encryption. Then they need more of the KVL/Computers/software to handle loading and maintaining the keys. Then they need the system infrastructure upgrade to handle the encryption along with OTAR and other things and last but not least all the extra stuff like training for techs and users alike. We could also factor subsequent updates that would be more costly due to the added "features" and any expenses or problems incurred due to malfunctioning of yet another complex layer added to the whole thing.

 

[N_Jay]

Well, the DOD is a totally different monster which I'm not even including in what I'm talking about. I'm more interested in what's happening at the State and Local government level.

So what are you talking about?
I thought it was about saving money by not having encryption,and I was pointing out with a DOD shared system, all (or almost all) the assumed system side savings are a false premise.

You know there's more expenses involved than the subscriber units. Aside from needing a higher model that supports the features, the subscriber units also need the software/firmware update to add the encryption feature among other things. Then they need the hardware modules to handle the encryption.

All that is the subscriber cost for the encryption. I don't care if you break it down to the screw, it does not change the number.

Then they need more of the KVL/Computers/software to handle loading and maintaining the keys.

TRue, but that is not the big cost.

Then they need the system infrastructure upgrade to handle the encryption along with OTAR and other things

Except this is what needs to be there for the DOD. as said before.

. . . and last but not least all the extra stuff like training for techs and users alike. We could also factor subsequent updates that would be more costly due to the added "features" and any expenses or problems incurred due to malfunctioning of yet another complex layer added to the whole thing.

And?
If they decided they wanted encryption and decided they had finds for it, I am sure they considered these issues also.

It still does not make the funds for one project redeployable to another.

 

[Squad10]

What is/was the encryption (feature/option) line item cost for fixed end and subscriber for this system?

 

[kikito]

There is a name for "Diverting" money from a grant to items outside the grant.

It's call fraud.

YOU KNOW very well that's not what I meant. I'll admit using the word "divert" wasn't the best choice. There you go in your usual style, slowly changing a thread about what's not about.

What I meant was that the person or persons who decides which money goes where, they have to be somewhere up that ladder, that's who needs to be made aware of the priority needs or they themselves need to prioritize.

But whatever, I'm done with this. You can go ahead and have the last word as usual. You still have not proven anything to me. It's always a dead-end with your arrogance. It was a good thread while it lasted.....

 

[N_Jay]

YOU KNOW very well that's not what I meant......

Of course I knew.

What you seem to miss is the fact that our government is a twisted mess of overlapping bureaucracies.

There is no "person or persons who decides which money goes where, they have to be somewhere up that ladder" that has anywhere near the full view the people at the bottom of the ladder have.

Grants are structured to achieve some goal,
and those goals are all different,
and some are misguided,
and others are good, but structured in a way that will never achieve the goals,
and all of us at the bottom try to reassemble the funds to accomplish what we best feel can be accomplished given all the constraints.

Then a genius, like yourself, looks at the results and proclaims all involved to be idiots, without ever having worked within the system being criticised.

Did I miss anything?

 

[Squad10]

In your mind you never do, why even ask another?

 

[kikito]

Homeland Security’s Billion-Dollar Bet on Better Communications - Homeland Security: Boom and Bust

Interoperability Money Aids Motorola and Other Contractors, but are First Responders Better Off?



Just like all these freakin' bailouts, so-called stimulus bills and now health-care, throwing more money at a problem and/or spending it willy-nilly is not going to fix the problem. Especially for those with a specific "agenda". And yet there's still some "people" that seem to try to justify what those "in charge" of whatever are doing, no matter what they do....


I guess next time I hear some liberal complain and blame Bush for everything, I'll know what to tell them: "Have you ever "worked" as a U.S. President?" No, well shut up, you don't know anything about anything.....

 

[Squad10]

Thanks for the link Kikito, and well said.

"Motorola’s government business is not its largest component, but “it’s by far the most profitable thing they do,” says Tavis McCourt, a senior research analyst at investment firm Morgan Keegan, who follows the company. Motorola has reorganized several times since 2001, changing the way it reports profits, so tracking its public safety business is difficult. But in recent years, Motorola has identified homeland security as the driving force behind increased sales in its government business. In 2008, public safety drove the company’s $1.5 billion operating profit in its enterprise mobility sector; its mobile phone business, by contrast, lost $2.2 billion. Motorola recently announced that, starting in 2011, its government segment, which manufactures emergency radio equipment, will be spun off as part of an independent company. Motorola declined to respond to inquiries regarding this story."

Excerpt from:
Motorola, An example of how big business fails the common employee

"Today, a tiny percentage of people control the bulk of the financial world and decision making. Unfortunately these few individuals with lots of power don't serve the interests and needs of the masses. If it did, we wouldn't have such extremes in poor and rich. In this article you can read a real world example of how big people in the corporate world can affect lots of people and their lives. Let us focus on one such corporation known as Motorola."

"Who Suffers at The Hand of Big-Wigs?
When such serious decisions have disastrous results who do you think really gets hit? Either directly or indirectly it causes job loss of the common person within a corporation. I can't see how it wouldn't cause that ripple effect. They had to cut costs somewhere along the line."

"Motorola during the mid 1990's had 150,000+ employees, but since 2006 the numbers are 68,000 or less and getting smaller. Much of the layoffs are due to outsourcing jobs over seas for cheap labor and cheap technical expertise. But guess what? Do the big people in big positions take their punishment too? A BIG NO! Even if the high-ups do have their jobs cut, they get to sell off their own stock options for a tidy sum. The people at the top typically have a golden parachute too. The parachute provides millions of dollars paid to each top executive when their job ends. Some get tens of millions of dollars just for leaving the company. This is not just with Motorola, but with many large corporations where the top paid individuals prosper when others simply suffer with a job loss (in comparison, many general employees get little to no compensation)."