Fairbanks Encryption

[kikito]

Yep, and the biggest money maker for companies like Motorola is selling you something you don't need i.e. much more than you need, proprietary technology or just extra "features" like the initial subject on this thread. Especially when they know you're getting "free" money grants or earmarks from the government....

That's OK, now that Ted Stevens is gone, the "pork barrel" is starting to dry out and is going to bite us all in the ass, not just in this subject but across the board and all expenditures. And as usual the tax payer will get the brunt of it.....

 

[pilotrallo]

I personally witnessed an Alaska state trooper letting a drunk driver that I called in let go, telling the dispatcher that he was "10-83 with the vehicle and would keep looking" after I watched him pull her over. This got him a three month suspension and almost got him fired and only because I was listening to his transmissions on the scanner. I was treated like I was a criminal when questioned by the big boys from Fairbanks. I was later told by another trooper "Quit listening to my !@#$ transmissions" after the event! On another note, on several other occasions I was able to call the troopers and give them helpful information while listening to them try to figure out where a house is, where a drunk driver is, where a robbery suspect is etc....I think it is an safety issue NOT to have their transmission broadcast unencrypted, and feel that they just don't want anybody looking over their shoulder because they make so many mistakes. This is a "good ol boy" club and this just makes it easier for them to be unprofessional. The disadvantages to public safety far outweigh the advantages of having this encryption in place!

 

[kikito]

BTW, given the system is shared with the DOD, encryption in the backbone is probably required, so the only savings would be the subscriber costs for non DOD units.

They probably have been using "bulk encryption" on the "backbone" of the system since the beginning but that has nothing to do with over-the-air encryption. You can have one or the other without dependencies.

 

[kikito]

I personally witnessed an Alaska state trooper letting a drunk driver that I called in let go, telling the dispatcher that he was "10-83 with the vehicle and would keep looking" after I watched him pull her over. This got him a three month suspension and almost got him fired....

That might explain and/or have something to do with their decision to encrypt full-time. Gee, I wonder how they survived all the previous decades WITHOUT encryption and on analog, conventional frequencies. They probably had better coverage too and they still rely on their old frequencies in many areas today but that's besides the point...

The disadvantages to public safety far outweigh the advantages of having this encryption in place!

I find interesting that a lot more "sensitive ops" are routinely done in the Clear statewide, yet, the mundane day-to-day comms for Troopers, mostly in the Fairbanks area, are hidden from the public. Even in crime-ridden Anchorage there's less use of encryption at this time. But who knows, that might change later....

Basically, the bulk of encryption use Fairbanks Borough wide at this time is by three entities:

1. State Troopers
2. Eielson AFB Fire Dept.
3. Eielson AFB Flight Line ops

Even the Eielson SP's operate 99% in the Clear. And it's almost laughable that they encrypt the A&P mechanics and other workers talking about changing bolts and tires and repairing garage doors. It's also interesting that you can't hear when Eielson FD is responding to an inflight emergency but you can tune to the VHF AM comms of the aircraft and controllers and hear the excitement directly.

Again, nothing new, anybody has been able to listen to comms since the beginning of radio, it's just that now with the "pork barrel" of Homeland Security grants that they can afford and justify the use of the latest and greatest, even when is overkill and not necessary.

But whatever, our government and authorities always "knows best" every time, right N_Jay? We should just all shut up and not interfere or question anything, ever, right N_Jay?

 

[kikito]

Then a genius, like yourself, looks at the results and proclaims all involved to be idiots, without ever having worked within the system being criticised.

Did I miss anything?

Again, I never said I was a genius or anybody else to be idiots. YOU said that.

Nobody has to be an "insider" or a known expert on everything to know something about a particular subject. Otherwise and according to your mentality, only doctors and health insurance companies would have a say on whether or not we should pass healthcare "reform" as an example. I bet YOU have a say in many subjects you don't know anything about.....

Besides, isn't our elected officials and authorities "accountable" to us and not the other way around? They at least owe the public an explanation for their actions. Or is it that we're slowly becoming a nation where the government tell US what's good for us and we just shut up and mind our business and let them do whatever they want even if the majority disagrees? Oh, wait a minute, that's already happening. Nevermind... :twisted:

 

[N_Jay]

They probably have been using "bulk encryption" on the "backbone" of the system since the beginning but that has nothing to do with over-the-air encryption. You can have one or the other without dependencies.

I was not discussing bulk encryption of backbone links, but rather the entire network (including over the air channels) would need to be capable of encryption.

 

[N_Jay]

But whatever, our government and authorities always "knows best" every time, right N_Jay? We should just all shut up and not interfere or question anything, ever, right N_Jay?

Nope, but if we don't trust them to make the right decisions on their operational practices, we have a problem bigger then whining over encryption.

How many of the vocal ones here have ever bothered to go to a city, county of state open meeting where these issues are discussed?

 

[N_Jay]

Again, I never said I was a genius or anybody else to be idiots. YOU said that.
. . . ..Nevermind... :twisted:

I think you need to go back and read YOUR POST and then read MY ANSWER rather than pull one line out of context to rant about.

Have a great day.

 

[kikito]

I think you need to go back and read YOUR POST and then read MY ANSWER rather than pull one line out of context to rant about.

Have a great day.

NO. Why don't YOU POINT ME exactly to where I said anything about "idiots" and "geniuses"?

You can't because I never said that. YOU as usual are the one putting stuff out of context and putting words in people's mouths. You lost another argument again. Trying to stall an argument by answering to a discussion with more questions is not the way to win or justify anything. Saying that's "just the way it is" is not an acceptable answer either. I personally KNOW very well about government bureaucracy, you don't have to lecture me about it either. That doesn't justify it and that's exactly what needs to change instead of people like you perpetuating it by saying "that's just the way it's always been..."

You have not proved to me or anybody the justification for the authority in question to do what they're doing, other than they do what they do "because they can". That's BULL**** and you know it. STOP kissing ass, grumpy old man.

P.S. I always have a great day, even when you're around spreading your arrogance.....

 

[kikito]

Nope, but if we don't trust them to make the right decisions on their operational practices, we have a problem bigger then whining over encryption.

Yeah, sure. It's just whining. Just like the whining about ever increasing taxes and everything else the majority of the population doesn't agree with, but politicians and those in authority keep pushing down our throats their own personal agendas. How many more times do they need to keep making the wrong choices before the people they're suppose to be protecting and representing stop getting affected by their "decisions"? Heck, half of my local phone service is full of taxes and fees going to a bunch of crap nobody had a say on it. So why do I mainly brought up the encryption subject here you might ask? Because it's a radio communications forum. Otherwise I could bring up a hundred more subjects I don't agree with but it'll be way off topic.

How many of the vocal ones here have ever bothered to go to a city, county of state open meeting where these issues are discussed?

I do, how about you? Not everybody has the time to go to every single happening in the area they live. Some people can't afford to miss a day of work even when they're sick. So that means they have less representation in the matters of their government? So what's your next irrelevant sorry excuse to justify the bull****?

 

[N_Jay]

Quote:
Originally Posted by N_Jay
There is a name for "Diverting" money from a grant to items outside the grant.

It's call fraud.


YOU KNOW very well that's not what I meant. I'll admit using the word "divert" wasn't the best choice. There you go in your usual style, slowly changing a thread about what's not about.

What I meant was that the person or persons who decides which money goes where, they have to be somewhere up that ladder, that's who needs to be made aware of the priority needs or they themselves need to prioritize.

But whatever, I'm done with this. You can go ahead and have the last word as usual. You still have not proven anything to me. It's always a dead-end with your arrogance. It was a good thread while it lasted.....
__________________
JETorres





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by kikito
YOU KNOW very well that's not what I meant......

Of course I knew.

What you seem to miss is the fact that our government is a twisted mess of overlapping bureaucracies.

There is no "person or persons who decides which money goes where, they have to be somewhere up that ladder" that has anywhere near the full view the people at the bottom of the ladder have.

Grants are structured to achieve some goal,
and those goals are all different,
and some are misguided,
and others are good, but structured in a way that will never achieve the goals,
and all of us at the bottom try to reassemble the funds to accomplish what we best feel can be accomplished given all the constraints.

Then a genius, like yourself, looks at the results and proclaims all involved to be idiots, without ever having worked within the system being criticised.

Did I miss anything?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, I was the one who used Geniuses and Idiots.

Because you MUST be a genius to have figured out that"person or persons who decides which money goes where, they have to be somewhere up that ladder,"
and,
The rest of the people in the system MUST be idiots for not recognising it.

Do you have another explanation?

 

[kikito]

Yes, I was the one who used Geniuses and Idiots.

Because you MUST be a genius to have figured out that"person or persons who decides which money goes where, they have to be somewhere up that ladder,"
and,
The rest of the people in the system MUST be idiots for not recognising it.

Do you have another explanation?

YES;

Huh, imagine this:

"An unprecedented amount of money has been spent by the federal government on improving interoperability for first responders, but some analysts say not all of that money has been well spent.

Gordon Witkin is managing editor at the Center for Public Integrity, and said interoperability is key if the U.S. is going to be secure and safe in the 21st century.

He explained that, after 9/11, a lot of money and time were devoted to improving interoperability, but, according to several reports from the Government Accountability Office and various inspectors general, a lot of it has been wasted.

"This is not as well organized as we'd hoped, and, for that reason, the money isn't doing as much good as we'd hoped. From 2004 to 2008 -- that's the latest figures available, something like $4.3 billion in grant money was put out for interoperability by [DHS]. We really haven't gotten what you might hope for that [money]. The contractors, particularly Motorola, have pushed this really hard, have gotten very involved with organizations like the Association of First Responders, and folks like the International Association of Chiefs of Police, the Police Executive Research Forum, the Association of Public Safety Communications officials -- and some wonder whether that's become a little incestuous, whether the involvement of contractors . . . Has really helped get lots and lots of money, but without the level of organization and scrutiny and cost-effectiveness that some hope for."

Federal News Radio 1500 AM: Interoperability efforts need better coordination


I guess these people don't know what they're talking about either... right N_Jay?


Meanwhile, MILLIONS have been spent in encryption that could've gone to the many smaller agencies and firsts-responders that to this day are still using old analog equipment and have to rely on gateways, patches, etc., initiated at the dispatch level in order to "inter-operate" with the rest of the PS agencies.

When you have some agencies using the top tier radios with all the bells and whistles including encryption while others don't even have cheap new radios, something is wrong. Call it whatever the hell you want, but like the article says, the "scrutiny and cost-effectiveness" just isn't there....

When it comes down to it, "Narrow-banding" and "Inter-operability" could've been achieved with upgrades to the analog/conventional infrastructure and radios in most cases. In other cases, you could buy new but much cheaper radios (WITHOUT ENCRYPTION) and so on....

You CANNOT call all this "hind-sight" either because most of this was known before all the billions were spent and still to this day, almost weekly you hear news of yet another BFE town getting an all-new, all-digital, all-encrypted system. Or a proprietary technology system, which by the way is another no-no to do with grant money. What would be an explanation? Once again, like the article mentions, some of the "ties" between the radio companies and the agencies or associations may have become a little "incestuous".

I guess now you can claim that the analysts are also calling all the PS Associations mentioned above, idiots. Right N_Jay? Calling for accountability in government in your book is synonym with calling those involved, idiots, right N_Jay?

 

[N_Jay]

YES;

Huh, imagine this:

Don't have to "imagine" it, it agrees with what I was saying.

"An unprecedented amount of money has been spent by the federal government on improving interoperability for first responders, but some analysts say not all of that money has been well spent.

Gordon Witkin is managing editor at the Center for Public Integrity, and said interoperability is key if the U.S. is going to be secure and safe in the 21st century.

He explained that, after 9/11, a lot of money and time were devoted to improving interoperability, but, according to several reports from the Government Accountability Office and various inspectors general, a lot of it has been wasted.

"This is not as well organized as we'd hoped, and, for that reason, the money isn't doing as much good as we'd hoped. From 2004 to 2008 -- that's the latest figures available, something like $4.3 billion in grant money was put out for interoperability by [DHS]. We really haven't gotten what you might hope for that [money]. The contractors, particularly Motorola, have pushed this really hard, have gotten very involved with organizations like the Association of First Responders, and folks like the International Association of Chiefs of Police, the Police Executive Research Forum, the Association of Public Safety Communications officials -- and some wonder whether that's become a little incestuous, whether the involvement of contractors . . . Has really helped get lots and lots of money, but without the level of organization and scrutiny and cost-effectiveness that some hope for."

Federal News Radio 1500 AM: Interoperability efforts need better coordination[/B]

Did I say ANYTHING to the contrary?

I guess these people don't know what they're talking about either... right N_Jay?

Nope, they are agreeing with what I said.

Meanwhile, MILLIONS have been spent in encryption that could've gone to the many smaller agencies and firsts-responders that to this day are still using old analog equipment and have to rely on gateways, patches, etc., initiated at the dispatch level in order to "inter-operate" with the rest of the PS agencies.

Maybe so, maybe not.
It depends on;
1) How the grants were written (Federal)
2) if those agencies even applied for the grants (Local)
3) How the disbursing agency handled the grants. (State)

When you have some agencies using the top tier radios with all the bells and whistles including encryption while others don't even have cheap new radios, something is wrong. Call it whatever the hell you want, but like the article says, the "scrutiny and cost-effectiveness" just isn't there....

Again; Did I say otherwise?

When it comes down to it, "Narrow-banding" and "Inter-operability" could've been achieved with upgrades to the analog/conventional infrastructure and radios in most cases. In other cases, you could buy new but much cheaper radios (WITHOUT ENCRYPTION) and so on....

Some can, some can't.
Are you "The ONE" who is smart enough to go around the country and convince several Federal Agencies, 50+ states and territories, and 1000's of local entities to all doing "YOUR" way?

You CANNOT call all this "hind-sight" either because most of this was known before all the billions were spent and still to this day, almost weekly you hear news of yet another BFE town getting an all-new, all-digital, all-encrypted system. Or a proprietary technology system, which by the way is another no-no to do with grant money. What would be an explanation? Once again, like the article mentions, some of the "ties" between the radio companies and the agencies or associations may have become a little "incestuous".

Oh really?
And just when does your great insight bypass hindsight?
Why didn't this "genius", Gordon Witkin write this article September 12, 2001.
Or maybe in 1989 when P25 was just started to be worked on?

This "It is easy to fix, and everyone should see that" attitude is exactly what I was talking about.

As for the relationship between the companies and the customers, it was APCO (representing the buyers) who started the who idea of a "User Driven Standard", and forced everyone into the same room.
I am not saying it was a bad idea, just don't go complaining about the closeness now.

I guess now you can claim that the analysts are also calling all the PS Associations mentioned above, idiots. Right N_Jay? Calling for accountability in government in your book is synonym with calling those involved, idiots, right N_Jay?

Calling for accountability is not what I was commenting on.
It was your misguided (and incorrect) statement that there is some mysterious "person or persons who decides which money goes where, they have to be somewhere up that ladder".
My point (if you would actually READ what i POSTED) is that there is not.
The systems you are complaining about were built using; (as I said before)

Grants are structured to achieve some goal,
and those goals are all different,
and some are misguided,
and others are good, but structured in a way that will never achieve the goals,
and all of us at the bottom try to reassemble the funds to accomplish what we best feel can be accomplished given all the constraints.

Then a genius, like yourself (or the author of this report), looks at the results and proclaims all involved to be idiots, without ever having worked within the system being criticised.

NOW, . . . . Did I miss anything?

 

[kikito]

Just thought I would post about an interesting turn of events as of lately.

Ever since the Troopers and other agencies have gone encrypted, I have heard of the most Cops being shot and wounded in the last decade and the most people being shot by cops, many fatally. Crime in general has gone up, especially in Anchorage, crime went up 8% since last year.

It's probably coincidence all this has been happening. But one thing is for sure, the only two things encryption has accomplished so far is used up money that could've been used for better things and for many in the community to lose some confidence in Law Enforcement entities.



P.S. Don't bother replying N_Jay, I don't give a damn what you have to say about the subject. You're not convincing me and you're not going to win. I missed back then the diatribe you wrote above and I'm not reading it now either.....

 

[W8SS]

Encryption is all around us today... (Kikito et al...)

Virtually all of the Fed coms in Michigan are encrypted. The MPSCS system - one of the largest and oldest APCO-25 TRS systems installed anywhere - has many participating radios on many talk gorups that have encryption keys loaded. Few are used. Many mistakes occur constantly and some comms are nearly always in the clear. Operator error is ubiquitous and a great deal of comms are 1/2 encrypted (only one of two parties are encrypted). More and more participants in the MPSCS have announced that they will go full time DES. The modules installed are OTAR capable but I have never heard the keys changed over the air to date. The more popular encryption becomes the more of the needed data and the equipment will leak. Modules are all around at inexpensive prices. Keyloaders are seen everywhere from E-Bay on. Of course no one would use one in an unauthorized manor or to do anything that discredits the hobby or might be illegal. Remember as well that changing encryption keys WITHOUT OTAR is labor intensive. Each radio requires a visit to the departments tech. Commonly used Fed Radios have yet to change keys. Of course... Uncommonly used Fed radios can do anything or appear anywhere!!! (but that is hard to do as well)

I listen to the audio feeds from Anchorage all the time. I truly wish that I could find an internet audio feed of the Fairbanks PD dispatch with or without other interior PD dispatch. Now it looks as though I will not find one!

Concerning Anchorage: What is the deal with that CW ID - MNA748? Does it have a meaning?

 

[newsnick175]

Since the wife and I are on our way up to sightsee your fine state, I needed to check into what was happening scanner wise. You guys are into some heady stuff! That's good.
Encryption on everyday comms is a waste of our money. When any gov't body hides what it does from the public [media], it's up to no good. We pay and teach our police to do the right thing and give them a gun to boot! If they are honest they would be offended by encryption. It's one of the core pillars of a democracy, no one in a publicly funded agency should be allowed to hide his actions while "on duty" from free and easy access buy his employers: The Taxpayers of the United States. The media in Alaska should be all over this issue. If they aren't then the citizens of your state need to get vocal and demand a change. I look foward to seeing Alaska and listening to the peoples air waves.

 

[rogerx]

Don't worry kikito. I've got your back. Although, everybody speaks a little truth in any heated argument.

There's a reason for unencrypted 911 systems throughout the US. When there's a lack of response, other (certified) responders can respond. Most times it's illegal to respond, unless there's a need. Event hen, it's illegal. LOL

As to why AST is going encrypted, in one of the States with the most rural land, is completely wild.

If I were working, I would feel much safer with more eye's (ears) on my situation. However, if I were smoking dope (paranoia), I wouldn't want anybody hearing or watching me. With more eyes & ears, could aide court cases & maybe even save a life.

Everybody who has worked this field, including retirees are probably not too thrilled with encrypted on 911 situations as it aides criminal activity. If there's truly a problem, I would bump-up on manpower and prosecute those using the frequencies illegally. That simple.

One last thing, Cleveland Ohio was one of the first to go encrypted (using proprietary encryption) and would love to hear how much crime has decreased over the past five to ten years. LOL ... suppose East Cleveland is so safe & secure, it's probably much like La Jolla CA now! (Keep sweeping the dirt under the carpets.)

Plenty of private security and retirees now completely bored. I'm sure when something happens now, nobody knows what's going on, even when they see the perp go running through their property.

... just going with the flow as I'm sure God isn't too thrilled. :-/ ... and I hope all this stuff makes dope illegal again. ;-)