FCC enforcement

JDKelley

Just call me "Sparks." Or "Lucky."
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Aug 31, 2019
Messages
216
Reaction score
172
Location
Hammerspace
Say it again louder for all the mouth-breathers in the back!
Hey now...

I'm in the back because I try to listen more than I talk (not always, sadly - although I'm happy to be proven wrong.)
I'm only a mouth-breather because my sinuses are terminally boned from shattering my face in 2005.

Apart from that, I try to not be too screwy about things. . .:p
 

OpSec

All your WACN are belong to us
Database Admin
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
1,990
Reaction score
337
Location
Monitoring the database
Hey now...

I'm in the back because I try to listen more than I talk (not always, sadly - although I'm happy to be proven wrong.)
I'm only a mouth-breather because my sinuses are terminally boned from shattering my face in 2005.

Apart from that, I try to not be too screwy about things. . .:p

This topic gets me all wound up like when a certain bunch of Troopers in VT drink containers of maple syrup :ROFLMAO:
 

mmckenna

I ♥ Ø
Joined
Jul 27, 2005
Messages
28,112
Reaction score
35,401
Location
United States
Here is another example of how the FCC is more than capable of codifying this if they want to.
This is for Part 90 only, NOT amateur radio:

§ 90.407 Emergency communications.

The licensee of any station authorized under this part may, during a period of emergency in which the normal communication facilities are disrupted as a result of hurricane, flood, earthquake or similar disaster, utilize such station for emergency communications in a manner other than that specified in the station authorization or in the rules and regulations governing the operation of such stations. The Commission may at any time order the discontinuance of such special use of the authorized facilities.​
This is what hams 'think' they have. But they do not. If FCC wanted hams to do this, they could copy this section into Part 97, but they didn't.
 

JDKelley

Just call me "Sparks." Or "Lucky."
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Aug 31, 2019
Messages
216
Reaction score
172
Location
Hammerspace
This topic gets me all wound up like when a certain bunch of Troopers in VT drink containers of maple syrup :ROFLMAO:
Nah, I read you. I don't even have my ticket and it bothers me.

In an emergency, as a private citizen, I'll do whatever I have to do to get attention (that includes the six pop-flares I keep in the truck, right next to the VS-17 signal panels. The signal mirror is in the glove box, and I have several ways to start a fire - I can spark up something with a lot of smoke during the day, or something hot & bright for the night, it's just the selection of fuel.

And if I upgrade phones anytime soon (currently Samsung Galaxy S20, need S21 or later,) I'll activate the satellite paging I can get through T-Mobile for the off chance I'm somewhere I can't get a cell signal. Cheaper than a satellite phone, and doesn't involve another device.

Multiple layers of redundancy for critical systems. . .
 

mmckenna

I ♥ Ø
Joined
Jul 27, 2005
Messages
28,112
Reaction score
35,401
Location
United States
"Some people" (I'm looking at you, NotARubicon) have filled so many heads with useless crap and we keep seeing the result.

I don't blame him. I blame the people that will believe anything they see on YouTube, or QRZ, or even RadioReference.

I had a high school drafting teacher. His favorite line was "Engage brain before engaging hand". That seems to be something that is commonly missing in society.

I don't care how many people have ham licenses, but I absolutely care that everyone with a ham license isn't a no-skill putz.

Yeah, I agree. I don't even really care if someone is on the ham bands without a license, just as long as they behave. Better they do stupid $h!† on the ham bands where they won't interfere with the professionals/public safety users.
 

mmckenna

I ♥ Ø
Joined
Jul 27, 2005
Messages
28,112
Reaction score
35,401
Location
United States
In an emergency, as a private citizen, I'll do whatever I have to do to get attention

And that is cool, even if it involves a radio. The problem is the hams that think they have some legal authority or mandate to hop on public safety frequencies any time they feel slightly scared or threatened.

Problem is that there are plenty of legal tools to get help in an emergency. Problem is, people don't want to pay for them. They want everyone else to bow to their cheapness and authorize them to use their $20 Baoturd. It ain't going to happen.
 

JDKelley

Just call me "Sparks." Or "Lucky."
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Aug 31, 2019
Messages
216
Reaction score
172
Location
Hammerspace
And that is cool, even if it involves a radio. The problem is the hams that think they have some legal authority or mandate to hop on public safety frequencies any time they feel slightly scared or threatened.

Problem is that there are plenty of legal tools to get help in an emergency. Problem is, people don't want to pay for them. They want everyone else to bow to their cheapness and authorize them to use their $20 Baoturd. It ain't going to happen.
The problem there, as I am seeing it, is that the definition of "emergency" has become horribly flexible recently. Wife needs milk at home - "emergency." No, that's not an emergency, and that's also why you have your own vehicle.

You've seen my definition of emergency - it really boils down to "anything that requires immediate handling that I can't handle myself" (which doesn't leave a lot of open ground, admittedly. My psychologist called me "compulsively competent" - I just say I'm always learning. Whether I learn from a book, from a class, or on the job, I'm always learning. Because what else do I have this overclocked ape brain for?) When you stop learning you start dying, and I'm not ready for that yet. . .
 

N4DES

Retired 0598 Czar ÆS Ø
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
2,599
Reaction score
570
Location
South FL
Here is another example of how the FCC is more than capable of codifying this if they want to.
This is for Part 90 only, NOT amateur radio:

§ 90.407 Emergency communications.

The licensee of any station authorized under this part may, during a period of emergency in which the normal communication facilities are disrupted as a result of hurricane, flood, earthquake or similar disaster, utilize such station for emergency communications in a manner other than that specified in the station authorization or in the rules and regulations governing the operation of such stations. The Commission may at any time order the discontinuance of such special use of the authorized facilities.​
This is what hams 'think' they have. But they do not. If FCC wanted hams to do this, they could copy this section into Part 97, but they didn't.

That would be correct!
 

mmckenna

I ♥ Ø
Joined
Jul 27, 2005
Messages
28,112
Reaction score
35,401
Location
United States
You've seen my definition of emergency - it really boils down to "anything that requires immediate handling that I can't handle myself" (which doesn't leave a lot of open ground, admittedly. . .

Risk of life and limb, is what you'll often hear.
That means someone is going to die, bleed out, lose a limb, grave danger.

Not, "I got a flat tire and don't want to wait for someone to drive by who can assist."
Not, "I don't want to walk a 1/4 mile to find a place where my cell phone works."
Not, "I want to go 30 miles into the back country carrying $2,500 worth of fancy backpacking gear, but don't want to spend $250 on a Garmin InReach or similar device because I'm a lazy, ignorant SOB and everyone owes me the right to use my $20 Baoturd on USFS frequencies.".
Not, "I passed a 35 question multiple choice test. I'm 'practically' a first responder".
Not, "I was too lazy to take a first aid course."
Not, "My feet are tired, send EMS/S&R to carry my lazy azz out off the nature trail.".
Not, "My ham radio license means I don't have to go through triage with the 911 call taker and I can call directly into the first responder radio system and take priority over all the other emergencies that I'm blissfully unaware of."

Entitled jackwagons with a cheap radio think the rules shall be bent to meet their immediate desires and maintain their comfort.



Kind of going into the territory of this thread getting locked. Probably needs to be. But hams/hobbyists need to hear this time and time again. I've spent enough time in our PSAP to know that this is NOT the way to get help, and they will NOT appreciate your ignorance.
 

JDKelley

Just call me "Sparks." Or "Lucky."
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Aug 31, 2019
Messages
216
Reaction score
172
Location
Hammerspace
Risk of life and limb, is what you'll often hear.
That means someone is going to die, bleed out, lose a limb, grave danger.

Not, "I got a flat tire and don't want to wait for someone to drive by who can assist."
Not, "I don't want to walk a 1/4 mile to find a place where my cell phone works."
Not, "I want to go 30 miles into the back country carrying $2,500 worth of fancy backpacking gear, but don't want to spend $250 on a Garmin InReach or similar device because I'm a lazy, ignorant SOB and everyone owes me the right to use my $20 Baoturd on USFS frequencies.".
Not, "I passed a 35 question multiple choice test. I'm 'practically' a first responder".
Not, "I was too lazy to take a first aid course."
Not, "My feet are tired, send EMS/S&R to carry my lazy azz out off the nature trail.".
Not, "My ham radio license means I don't have to go through triage with the 911 call taker and I can call directly into the first responder radio system and take priority over all the other emergencies that I'm blissfully unaware of."

Entitled jackwagons with a cheap radio think the rules shall be bent to meet their immediate desires and maintain their comfort.



Kind of going into the territory of this thread getting locked. Probably needs to be. But hams/hobbyists need to hear this time and time again. I've spent enough time in our PSAP to know that this is NOT the way to get help, and they will NOT appreciate your ignorance.
Brother, I've spent enough time sitting in emergency room lobbies as a caretaker to know that people just have no bloody patience. The ED is the one place where the longer you wait, the better off you area! (I usually get brought in by wagon, as a trauma case. My mother-in-law was a lunger - emphysema/COPD - so we usually went back fairly quickly. My wife is a lunger - PF - so here we go again. So, I'm a trauma medic with concentrations in pulmonology, cardiology, and orthopaedics overall. And enough of an understanding of the term "emergency" that I've had the pulmonologist give me his direct and personal mobe number 20 years ago - which I have yet to use - and most of the specialists I deal with, the front office staff will route me right through if I ask, which I rarely do.
 

EAFrizzle

Bond. Ward Bond
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Jun 2, 2019
Messages
1,241
Reaction score
1,868
Location
SE de DFW
...people just have no bloody patience...
Not just that, but the sense of entitlement as well. "How dare you tell me to wait in line! The rules don't apply to me, anyway." And they say exactly that to cops and judges!

It's like a more narcissistic version of the SovCit delusion.
 

JDKelley

Just call me "Sparks." Or "Lucky."
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Aug 31, 2019
Messages
216
Reaction score
172
Location
Hammerspace
Not just that, but the sense of entitlement as well. "How dare you tell me to wait in line! The rules don't apply to me, anyway." And they say exactly that to cops and judges!

It's like a more narcissistic version of the SovCit delusion.
I dunno - but if I'm at the ED and they tell me I've got to wait, I feel pretty good about it - I'm apparently in better shape than I thought I was!

Although the longest I had to wait was with my mother-in-law, because I always stayed until she was admitted and roomed. That stay? 14 hours. And people wonder why I've always owned a laptop. . . (Flipside of that is that we did get past triage in about 20 minutes.)
 

KD8DVR

Elitist Ham
Joined
Apr 11, 2004
Messages
1,415
Reaction score
330
Location
Columbus, Ohio
I agree.

Hams like to say they are "self policing". They aren't.

If hams were -really- self policing, there'd be much more effort to reign in this kind of behavior. Hams would be taught the rules. Not the made up/imagined rules, but the rules that the FCC publishes and requires all hams to know. There would be elmers that would help correct this behavior, rather than encourage it.

Applies to all the personal radio services, but I know that's asking a lot.

Of course they aren't. Now anyone who attempts to reign in this behavior is called a "Sad Ham" or worse, by fellow hams. The "new breed" coming in is toxic.
 

KD8DVR

Elitist Ham
Joined
Apr 11, 2004
Messages
1,415
Reaction score
330
Location
Columbus, Ohio
Your knowledge, as well as MANY other hams, is incorrect.

The FCC is abundantly clear that the amateur radio licenses provides precisely ZERO authorization to transmit outside the very clearly defined amateur radio bands.

Transmitting outside the ham bands, even in an emergency, real or imagined, is against several FCC rules. There is not secret hidden rule. There is no misunderstanding. There is no waiver.

Here it is again:

97.405 Station in distress.

(a) No provision of these rules prevents the use by an amateur station in distress of any means at its disposal to attract attention, make known its condition and location, and obtain assistance.​
(b) No provision of these rules prevents the use by a station, in the exceptional circumstances described in paragraph (a)of this section, of any means of radiocommunications at its disposal to assist a station in distress.​
Key words are "these rules". These rules are Part 97. Part 97 -only- gives authorization to use Part 97 frequencies. Part 90 frequencies are NOT the same as Part 97 frequencies.
Transmitting under any other radio service requires following the rules of that radio service. Specifically, licensing, type acceptance, etc.


FCC Part 2, known as the "general rules" that apply to all radio services, including amateur radio says:

§ 2.405 Operation during emergency.

The licensee of any station (except amateur, standard broadcast, FM broadcast, noncommercial educational FM broadcast, or television broadcast) may, during a period of emergency in which normal communication facilities are disrupted as a result of hurricane, flood, earthquake, or similar disaster, utilize such station for emergency communication service in communicating in a manner other than that specified in the instrument of authorization: Provided:
(a) That as soon as possible after the beginning of such emergency use, notice be sent to the Public Safety and Homeland Security Bureau of the Commission at Washington, D.C., stating the nature of the emergency and the use to which the station is being put, and​
(b) That the emergency use of the station shall be discontinued as soon as substantially normal communication facilities are again available, and​
(c) That the Public Safety and Homeland Security Bureau of the Commission at Washington, D.C., shall be notified immediately when such special use of the station is terminated: Provided further,​
(d) That in no event shall any station engage in emergency transmission on frequencies other than, or with power in excess of, that specified in the instrument of authorization or as otherwise expressly provided by the Commission, or by law: And provided further,
(e) That any such emergency communication undertaken under this section shall terminate upon order of the Commission.​
Please notice that it says "except amateur", meaning that amateur radio does NOT have permission to do this. No fine print, no waiver, nothing.

Even though it's plainly spelled out, you'll still get the whacker, prepper, tinfoil hattist crowd that will argue against this.
 

mmckenna

I ♥ Ø
Joined
Jul 27, 2005
Messages
28,112
Reaction score
35,401
Location
United States
"Sad Ham"

I kind of like the term.

Not when applied against people trying to encourage good behavior, though.

I like it when it's used against the cranky older hams that are incapable of adapting to anything new or different. Technology moves on, and ham radio should be near the cutting edge. Not chained to a 130 year old technology and not permitted to move forward.
 

K9KLC

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Mar 31, 2007
Messages
2,548
Reaction score
2,691
Location
Southwest, IL
Yeeesh.
How the hell does someone accidentally set something like that up and not notice it.
We have the same type of interference right now, happening on a ham repeater in my area, just started yesterday.
Keys, makes the repeater ID, then unkeys then rinse and repeat. Yesterday I got on there and asked if someone was having problems and I heard my transmission come back to me. they're still trying to see if they can locate where it's coming from. I think if it continues a fox hunt is in order. I just got an email about it.
 

mmckenna

I ♥ Ø
Joined
Jul 27, 2005
Messages
28,112
Reaction score
35,401
Location
United States
We have the same type of interference right now,

Not clear what the best approach is here.

On one side, public shaming seems to be an option.
The name/call sign of said individual gets plastered on the FCC enforcement bureau page, and then it gets picked up by most hobby radio web pages. Any future search on the name or call sign is going to pop up. For a new ham, or honest mistake, I think that should be used carefully.

But then you have those that just cannot play nice with others, proudly don't care, or do it on purpose. Public shaming doesn't seem like enough.

Confiscating radios isn't a deterrent when these Chinese turds are $20 each. It meant more when a good radio would be a big chunk of several paychecks.

Yoink'ing their license won't do much, as many have already shown that they are incapable of following even the most basic rules, and transmitting without a license is something they've already proven they don't care about.

Jail is probably a bit excessive for a violation like this. No need to completely destroy someone's life because of a hobby.

Amateur radio has failed itself since they seem to be unable to self police and unwilling to teach the rules.
FCC clearly needs to do a better job of clarifying the Personal Radio Service rules. Having a plain language rule that says "You cannot, under any circumstances, transmit outside the radio service for any reason what so ever" might help slightly, but we know the same losers will ignore that, too.

There needs to be better oversight into what products are allowed on the spectrum. Not that it will solve all the issues, but there's obviously a step missing when these radios get certified and then released to the public cheap enough that anyone can buy them.
Relying on common sense isn't enough.
 

mmckenna

I ♥ Ø
Joined
Jul 27, 2005
Messages
28,112
Reaction score
35,401
Location
United States
The name/call sign of said individual gets plastered on the FCC enforcement bureau page, and then it gets picked up by most hobby radio web pages. Any future search on the name or call sign is going to pop up. For a new ham, or honest mistake, I think that should be used carefully.

One of the reasons I post these enforcement actions. Make sure the name is out there and people see it.

Often you'll hear people claim "The FCC doesn't care", or "So what?"

I'm not convinced it's the best approach, but it is one approach.
 
Top