FCC Opens Rulemaking to Allow Encryption in Amateur Radio Service

Status
Not open for further replies.

MTS2000des

5B2_BEE00 Czar
Joined
Jul 12, 2008
Messages
6,111
Location
Cobb County, GA Stadium Crime Zone
I'm now convinced HT220 non encrypted lives in a gopher hole thinking that public service comms will never fail in a disaster and am getting a bit pissed off along with other amateur radio operators on RR who volunteer time and equipment for training exercises THAT WE ARE ASKED TO PARTICIPATE IN from local hospitals, etc.

I suspect if there is a disaster in his area and communications fail he will be the firs to point fingers and say "I told you so" when communications systems may not have bee designed well enough to survive or to call responding hams "whackers" when they actually help bridge the communications gap when all else has failed.
prcguy

See, that's the point you don't seem to get. In cases of whackerism, NO ONE ASKED for any outside help. I guess you missed that part about hams wanting to insert themselves where they were NOT ASKED to and then, REFUSE TO DO what they are asked to do. That is the essence of whackerism.

Some of us would much rather invest in appropriate self-maintained solutions "when all else fails" and while amateur radio may play a small part, it should NEVER be a sole source for any mission critical or operations critical plan. And none of the ham radio roles we see require encryption of radio traffic as the whacker moron in the FCC NPRM has proposed.

If your served agency is NOT investing in hardening their primary and secondary part 90/commerical comms (voice and data), someone needs to take a long hard look at their priorities. Ham radio should be an auxiliary function, not an internal one or a mission critical one in any context. It has great flexibility in it's current form, and the very liberal rules allow it to be utilized to a great extent for disaster drills and training, but it should not be taken out of context for what it is: a non-commercial, open and flexible PERSONAL radio service, not a primary emergency radio service like some are trying to make it into for their own delusional reasons.
 

MTS2000des

5B2_BEE00 Czar
Joined
Jul 12, 2008
Messages
6,111
Location
Cobb County, GA Stadium Crime Zone
Only if you don't know what you are doing. an encrypted net should be between an EOC and a hospital via Ham radio, That is what i can see. As far as general Encryption goes in Amateur Radio, it might be wise to mention that Hams do have access to modern radios that carry encryption so I do not see why encryption should not be allowed.

Why when there are plenty of part 90 solutions that ARE ALREADY IN PLACE. Why do whackers such as yourself INSIST that hospitals in particular NEED ham radio to contact EOC's?

I guess you don't know that everything that can be done with ham radio for hospital to EOC can and IS being done with more appropriate part 90 and NTIA spectrum, including HF- in fact the CDC has an HF system in place using COMMERICAL HF and it is more robust and appropriate than depending on some grumpy old men hanging around your hospital or orange vest whackers when "all else fails":

CDC | National Public Health Radio Network (NPHRN)

See, this is something the almighty ARRL doesn't want hospital EM's to know about, but those of us who do are spreading the word. Oh, the great thing about commercial HF radios is they work on part 97, and should the need arise, those duly license hams who just happen to work at such equipped hospitals could use those part 97 channels to coordinate with local hams, ARES, ACS, etc if need be.

The CDC NPHRN uses more advanced technologies including ALE, no ham radios (even those "new car price" HF contest rigs) are capable of that or certified for use on part 90 or NTIA spectrum. So all the money these hospitals are wizzing away with grant money on ham gear is for nothing, they should be investing in COMMERCIAL HF gear instead.
 

KF4ZMB

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Sep 6, 2007
Messages
81
Location
Aiken County SC USA
Christian, it is wise to quote an old saying here, "never say never"

You can't possibly say that radio systems won't fail because in reality, they have, even the p25 systems.

I would rather see encryption on amateur radio as a back up then not have a back up at all.

I understand you pick and choose from what people say to respond to, and I, like others, believe, at this point, that you are just trying to be a troll on this board. However, for the benefit of the others who do not seem to understand mine, and others, points on this. Sure public safety systems can fail, towers can fall (public safety and amateur), BUT, and here is the meat of the argument, this DOES NOT mean that when those public safety systems fail that their users NEED encryption from ham radio users or otherwise. IF, as some keep suggesting, EOCs/EMs/Disaster Ops people are going to turn down amateur radio operators BECAUSE they do not have encryption capable radios "when all else fails" THEN they would also have to turn down EVERY OTHER ASSISTANCE AGENCY THAT DOES NOT HAVE ENCRYPTION CAPABILITIES. And, furthermore, IF they were to do this then they deserve to let the entire operation fall apart if for no other reason than to let their consituents and citizens see how ill-prepared, not to mention self centered, they are when it comes to emergency ops. However folks, this is NOT going to happen. IF "all else fails" then, by definition, they are going to need all the help they can get, encrypted or otherwise, and they are going to take it unless they wanted a massive law suit on their hands after the fact for being stupid enough to turn down help simply because they did not have encryption. THAT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN FOLKS. Sorry, if I come across rude here, but I am tired of people insulting those of us who have worked in emergency management by asserting 1) that our systems would fail on a whim (even that public safety towers would blow over in a storm, all of them it seems, while all the ham towers magically stay erect) and we would be without help, and that 2) if this happened we would be so full of ourselves as to turn down anyone who did not have the exact same system as our original. Think about it folks. It just does not make logical sense.

Christian KF4ZMB
 

alexmahoney

Completely Banned for the Greater Good
Banned
Joined
Jul 1, 2013
Messages
70
I understand you pick and choose from what people say to respond to, and I, like others, believe, at this point, that you are just trying to be a troll on this board. However, for the benefit of the others who do not seem to understand mine, and others, points on this. Sure public safety systems can fail, towers can fall (public safety and amateur), BUT, and here is the meat of the argument, this DOES NOT mean that when those public safety systems fail that their users NEED encryption from ham radio users or otherwise. IF, as some keep suggesting, EOCs/EMs/Disaster Ops people are going to turn down amateur radio operators BECAUSE they do not have encryption capable radios "when all else fails" THEN they would also have to turn down EVERY OTHER ASSISTANCE AGENCY THAT DOES NOT HAVE ENCRYPTION CAPABILITIES. And, furthermore, IF they were to do this then they deserve to let the entire operation fall apart if for no other reason than to let their consituents and citizens see how ill-prepared, not to mention self centered, they are when it comes to emergency ops. However folks, this is NOT going to happen. IF "all else fails" then, by definition, they are going to need all the help they can get, encrypted or otherwise, and they are going to take it unless they wanted a massive law suit on their hands after the fact for being stupid enough to turn down help simply because they did not have encryption. THAT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN FOLKS. Sorry, if I come across rude here, but I am tired of people insulting those of us who have worked in emergency management by asserting 1) that our systems would fail on a whim (even that public safety towers would blow over in a storm, all of them it seems, while all the ham towers magically stay erect) and we would be without help, and that 2) if this happened we would be so full of ourselves as to turn down anyone who did not have the exact same system as our original. Think about it folks. It just does not make logical sense.

Christian KF4ZMB

First off, calling somebody a TROLL is what starts most fights on RR. you are an adult, ACT LIKE IT!

secondly, This thread is going nowhere. There are no such things as whackers here or in the proposal.

if you, and others, want to call people names when it doesn't belong here, then you will get treated as such.

Loumaag has said it time and time again that name calling doesn't belong here and that includes the term "whackers"

I am not trolling here or anywhere and I refuse to be called a troll when my points are valid points that nobody seems to grasp. I was done with this thread until you referred to me as trolling and i had to defend my stance with the ham encryption issue.

Now i AM done with this thread.
 

prcguy

Member
Joined
Jun 30, 2006
Messages
17,406
Location
So Cal - Richardson, TX - Tewksbury, MA
When someone is out of touch with reality and is operating at a child's social level they usually resort to calling anyone that does not agree with them names like "whackers". Reality is, commercial and public service radio systems totally fail as shown in many recent hurricanes, the cell phone infrastructure gets completely overloaded, is rendered useless and lives are at stake due to these communications failures.

Since when is MTS200 (aka HT200) a radio system designer? Even the best radio systems can break and
a good system operator will have more than one contingency plan, including amateur radio when "all else fails".

Amateur radio is requested and welcomed by hospitals and public service agencies in disasters and there are news stories of hams responding and providing needed communications in just about every major disaster the US has had in recent times. I witness lots of amateur radio emergency drills at hospitals and there is no trace of the "Whacker" that HT200 describes.

Was HT200 once molested by an amateur radio operator and that's why you continue to degrade hams that give their time to the community? Please explain.
prcguy


See, that's the point you don't seem to get. In cases of whackerism, NO ONE ASKED for any outside help. I guess you missed that part about hams wanting to insert themselves where they were NOT ASKED to and then, REFUSE TO DO what they are asked to do. That is the essence of whackerism.

Some of us would much rather invest in appropriate self-maintained solutions "when all else fails" and while amateur radio may play a small part, it should NEVER be a sole source for any mission critical or operations critical plan. And none of the ham radio roles we see require encryption of radio traffic as the whacker moron in the FCC NPRM has proposed.

If your served agency is NOT investing in hardening their primary and secondary part 90/commerical comms (voice and data), someone needs to take a long hard look at their priorities. Ham radio should be an auxiliary function, not an internal one or a mission critical one in any context. It has great flexibility in it's current form, and the very liberal rules allow it to be utilized to a great extent for disaster drills and training, but it should not be taken out of context for what it is: a non-commercial, open and flexible PERSONAL radio service, not a primary emergency radio service like some are trying to make it into for their own delusional reasons.
 

PJH

Member
Joined
Aug 23, 2002
Messages
3,622
Not anyone lives in an area where you can talk across town with an HT. at its furthest point, the "local" hospital is 82 miles in a straight line from a part of the county. What then?

Because we aren't going to need or want wide area coverage for encrypted voice, for one thing. I darn sure wouldn't expect to try to cover 45 sq miles of open terrain when a portable repeater is available for an operation (the ARES group I'm a member of has one in our trailer). As far as other encrypted content, the RF path doesn't need encryption, just the message to be passed will; that should be done by the people handing me the message to be sent, in my opinion.
 

zz0468

QRT
Banned
Joined
Feb 6, 2007
Messages
6,034
...Reality is, commercial and public service radio systems totally fail as shown in many recent hurricanes, the cell phone infrastructure gets completely overloaded, is rendered useless and lives are at stake due to these communications failures.

It doesn't even need to take a disaster to set these failures into motion. An exceedingly hot day can take out power to an area, or a public event drawing a large crowd can block cellphone coverage and overload public safety systems with traffic.

It happens, and good communications management is going to have several layers of backup protocols to deal with it, including amateur radio. One thing I've never seen, and never hope to, is ham radio taking on the roll of dispatch radio for law enforcement or fire/EMS. I've seen departments think about this, but a better solution is to put simple backup systems into place that are easily tested and maintained so there is no need to send a ham out with each patrol car.

The usual role of hams is going to be off loading lower priority traffic so the paid professionals and their radio systems aren't loaded with traffic that can be carried by other methods. It can also shine by carrying traffic from points cut off from normal communications.

The "when all else fails" scenarios that I have had to deal with, had dispatch relying on simplex, fail soft, and purpose built backup systems like air entry into trunked systems instead of direct console access. A well designed system will allow users to make use of whatever remaining infrastructure is operational.

Amateur radio is requested and welcomed by hospitals and public service agencies in disasters and there are news stories of hams responding and providing needed communications in just about every major disaster the US has had in recent times.

I see them activate at just about every major fore that hits the area. I'm pretty certain that public safety agencies want the help, because I'm seeing them providing them with permanent physical space for operations centers, radios, and other equipment.

I witness lots of amateur radio emergency drills at hospitals and there is no trace of the "Whacker" that HT200 describes.

The only place I've personally ever seen the prototypical "whacker" is at swap meets and 4th of July parades. On the other hand, I have heard directly from some public safety officials expressing concern over a small percentage of hams, who tend to try to step in and take over anything radio related. Something negative is occurring for these perceptions to persist. It would behoove the amateur radio community to track down these perceptions and try to address them.
 
Last edited:

jparks29

John McClane
Joined
Nov 20, 2003
Messages
862
Location
Nakatomi Plaza
Not anyone lives in an area where you can talk across town with an HT. at its furthest point, the "local" hospital is 82 miles in a straight line from a part of the county. What then?

Yagi.

:D

The nice thing about hams, is knowledge (most of the time), ingenuity (again, most of the time) and for the younger guys, mobility.

I can drive to the highest point in the area, and relay messages without a repeater, for about 50 miles +/-, this range goes farther if I set up my directional antennas on my portable mast. I had dual generators, and a diesel that idles about 1/2 gallon per hour. This means that I can run my batteries down (all 3 of them), recharge them in about an hour, and shut down the vehicle, and repeat the process. Theoretically, I can use my vehicle for almost 2 months, using it solely to generate power to charge the batteries. I do intend on adding solar into the mix, to lessen the dependency on fuel.

I have no delusions though, most traffic passed will be people wanting to find loved ones, or shelter counts, or something similar.

If it's THAT bad, I have my own procedures/protocol to follow, and making myself a target, isn't one of them. BO.

I have a mix of commercial and amateur equipment, both serves in a role it was designed for.

The problem, as most see it, is as mentioned; the self important yahoos that wanna go getting badges and ish.

In an emergency, I will NOT be running crypto, unless it's for personal tactical use, with plans already in place for its utilization.
 
Last edited:

cmartin_85

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Mar 6, 2012
Messages
11
Encryption on amateur radio for any reason is just plain non-sense. If you're local municipality hasn't prepared their emergency communications with secondary, and tertiary systems in the event of a large scale incident, and their only means of emergency communication is through amateur radio, you guys need to be worried about much more important things because chances are you are living in a very rural and remote area where the local government doesn't have very many resources. Also, with the amount of money that DHS has shelled out to local and state governments to implement interoperability amongst public safety members, the likely hood that HAM operators would ever have access to information that needs to be transmitted over encrypted channels would be few and far between. Which also brings up other questions like, if the information is really THAT sensitive that it needs to be encrypted, will it even be allowed to be transmitted by your average emergency HAM operator. For those you crying out that this needs to be implemented due to HIPPA in the event of an emergency, any patient identifying information should never, I repeat, never, EVER be broadcast over the radio.
 

MTS2000des

5B2_BEE00 Czar
Joined
Jul 12, 2008
Messages
6,111
Location
Cobb County, GA Stadium Crime Zone
When someone is out of touch with reality and is operating at a child's social level they usually resort to calling anyone that does not agree with them names like "whackers". Reality is, commercial and public service radio systems totally fail as shown in many recent hurricanes, the cell phone infrastructure gets completely overloaded, is rendered useless and lives are at stake due to these communications failures.

Since when is MTS200 (aka HT200) a radio system designer? Even the best radio systems can break and
a good system operator will have more than one contingency plan, including amateur radio when "all else fails".

Amateur radio is requested and welcomed by hospitals and public service agencies in disasters and there are news stories of hams responding and providing needed communications in just about every major disaster the US has had in recent times. I witness lots of amateur radio emergency drills at hospitals and there is no trace of the "Whacker" that HT200 describes.

Was HT200 once molested by an amateur radio operator and that's why you continue to degrade hams that give their time to the community? Please explain.
prcguy

Funny, the only person I see making personal attacks is you, so maybe I should referring to you as PRICguy.

PRICguy doesn't seem to get that amateur radio is, and should be, one of many resources available for hospitals and public safety. It should NEVER be a primary disaster plan in any public safety agency. A "go-to" should be a backup redundant system on a more appropriate medium.

PRICguy should spend a little more time actually reading my posts instead of being a PRIC and he'd realize I don't admonish ham radio, PRICguy apparently missed that part about my being an active ham in my community for close to 3 decades, and active in community service.

But unlike what I have seen from the local ARES clowns, I know my place. I don't have flashing lights on my car, I don't push my way in, I don't oversell amateur radio as some kind of "emergency radio" solution like a Motorola salesman, and I don't believe in using ham radio in place of other more appropriate radio service. I don't believe in changing the rules in such a way to allow for something that has been forbidden for a very valid reason, and certainly not for the outlandish reasons as put forth in the matter before the commission.

PRICguy, I have designed radio systems for public safety. In my previous employment, I worked as a communications director for a large Metro Atlanta ambulance company. I also know the needs of public safety and hospitals quite well. One thing we don't need are untrained, non-certified persons in the way of our scenes handling "third party traffic." Others have asked, just what specific traffic that needs to be passed requires encryption over ham radio and of course the answer are a pile of vague him-haw's that are easily debunked faster than any clip from Myth Busters. In the systems I maintained, we had redundancy using local municipal TRS alternate tallgroups, our primary operations were on LTR UHF trunking, if those failed, protocol was to switch to a local community repeater, if that was unavailable we would default to med 1-8. If those were down, that's why every rig had an 800 mobile programmed on the local TRS, and then I-TAC/8-TACs if those were offline. No one was asked to use ham radio (despite several people in the company including it's owner) having ham licenses. Why? Because it isn't the place for it. At no time would I ever envision some ham "communicator" riding in one of our trucks to pass third party traffic over ham radio because 1)-that's so not practical, 2)-not needed given the levels of redundancy, 3)- having non-employees on a truck is a liability. And we never passed anything sensitive over our primary or secondary radio systems. PCR's were transmitted over data cards. If those were down, they were saved to disk and handed off at shift change. So tell me where HAM RADIO would fit into that picture?

It is clear that those people like PRICguy and others who are convinced that amateur radio NEEDS to allow for encryption or ELSE we will be doomed and the FCC will sell off our spectrum to AT&T and Verizon because we aren't our playing Randy Rescue with it passing patient stats over the radio with names and medical record numbers are just plain delusional.

They want it so they can play. I wouldn't be so against that IF that were the main reason, but the reasons they spout are absurd and most logical thinking adults know and comprehend the slippery slope that allowing blanket use of encryption, especially for voice- can do to this service.

I am glad that in PRICguy's little part of the world, ham radio is welcomed with open arms by these desperate hospitals and public safety entities because they must to too broke or under the spell of some delusional ham who has them sold that ham radio is the "prepper" radio service. Guess someone's spent too much time watching episodes of "Extreme Preppers" on NatGeo.

In many circles, and sadly in my county, mentioning HAM RADIO to public safety agencies is met with eyerolls and sighs. You can thank those fools who don't know their place for that.

Ham radio has it's place, but not to the extent of modifying the radio service so much to fit the needs of the agencies served by the very radio amateur volunteers using it. If it cannot be done within the already liberal and flexible rules we have, than it needs to be done elsewhere. The assertion that ham radio is "mission critical" or "operations critical" is laughable. Nothing more than those weirdos with a light fetish who want to use it as a vehicle to hold themselves out to be something they are not so they can be where they have no business being.
 
Last edited:

rogerx

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Oct 24, 2006
Messages
68
Location
Ohio
"... any patient identifying information should never, I repeat, never, EVER be broadcast over the radio."

Sounds like a money making idea for the pro encryption gang. ;-)
 

N4CA

Member
Joined
Jun 2, 2013
Messages
87
Location
Saint Inigoes, MD
For those you crying out that this needs to be implemented due to HIPPA in the event of an emergency, any patient identifying information should never, I repeat, never, EVER be broadcast over the radio.
If the radio call is going to keep me alive, I'm fine with broadcasting every piece of information about me that exists, encryption or not.


Sent from my Transformer Prime TF201 using Tapatalk 4 Beta
 
D

DaveNF2G

Guest
Christian, it is wise to quote an old saying here, "never say never"

You can't possibly say that radio systems won't fail because in reality, they have, even the p25 systems.

I would rather see encryption on amateur radio as a back up then not have a back up at all.

PLEASE STOP FEEDING THIS TROLL!!!

He cannot even argue from a consistent position, probably because he has no idea of what he is talking about.
 
D

DaveNF2G

Guest
The CDC NPHRN uses more advanced technologies including ALE, no ham radios (even those "new car price" HF contest rigs) are capable of that

I call BS. Practically any ham rig is "capable" of ALE with the appropriate software, a laptop with a soundcard, and a simple interface such as the RigBlaster.
 

Chris45

Member
Joined
May 26, 2004
Messages
144
Really?

Thank you for your compliment honoring me as a PRIME example of why encryption in the amateur bands is misunderstood. But in doing so, you short-changed the others on this thread that have also identified the pitfalls and adversities of encryption on the amateur airways.

You say that Hams would not be hindered in any way if the encryption could be turned off or on by just ONE individual during an actual emergency, otherwise encryption would not be 24/7 like in the public safety realm. Amateur radio is about “ALL” licensed members of this –dare I say hobby. But I do agree with you that encryption is a tool belonging in the public safety realm.

You particularly asked me what would the police do if their own radio system is down and there was no other alternative but HAMS. To be sure, amateur radio has been and will continue to support public safety agencies in emergencies, as needed. As needed means the public safety agencies will determine how. Public safety agencies have contingency plans and systems in place that have proven adequate in such situations. In such situations the use amateur radio equipment would be open, clear, and not encrypted. Public safety agencies understand this and are not requiring Hams to encrypt their communications. If there was a dire reason that open and clear communications could not be used, then the public safety agencies have the responsibility and not the amateur radio community.

Presuming that you are a licensed amateur radio operator, what don’t you understand? If you and others wish to provide and over-the-air encrypted radio service during emergencies, then have at it. But do not hassle the rest of the amateur radio community because you are the one that just doesn’t get it.
 

wsykes41770

Member
Joined
Oct 18, 2011
Messages
92
Location
Memphis, TN
IMHO....

This is a subject I've thought long and hard about. I have been a licensed HAM since 1987, obtained my FCC General Radiotelephone Operator's License (GROL) in 1999, and currently work for the Metropolitan Government of Nashville and Davidson County in Tennessee in the Radio Shop. I write the templates and program the radios, as well as install them, in all of the emergency vehicles we own and operate. Police, Fire, and Ambulances, so I am familiar with both sides of this subject.

That being said, I firmly believe that the FCC should NOT allow encryption on the Amateur Radio frequencies. I see this as a detriment to the hobby, not an advantage. Part of the fun of the hobby is it's openess. Being able to talk to and listen to people from all over the world is the draw to the hobby. Adding encryption would only cause the hobby to become more closed off. Even just allowing encryption on 2m and/or 70cm would create a precedent that could lead to everything being encrypted. You want encryption? Learn Morse Code. 99% of the population wouldn't even understand it!!

We use encryption here in Nashville for our Police Department and are currently in the process of rolling it out to the Fire and Ambulances as well. We don't encrypt everything. Dispatch channels are left clear. Only the tactical and investigative channels are encrypted. Personally, I think our Records and Warrants channel should be but the powers that be chose for it to be left unencrypted. Encryption is an operational necessity for EMS agencies. It doesn't take much misinformation or misunderstanding of information to cause a panic when there shouldn't be one. Yes, I'm refering to the media putting something out that they only got a spatter of information on. It happens quite frequently.

Well, that's my 2 cents worth. I know there will be people who disagree, but let's just agree to disagree and leave it at that.

Wayne Sykes
W4SYK, formerly KB4ZLE
Amateur Extra
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top