FCC REBANDING Discussion Thread

[Voyager]

Interesting. They state that the PRO-97 will handle the rebanding, but don't say HOW. The (20)96's tables have been known about for some time, but the '97 doesn't have that many tables (from what I've read), so does it have a flashable memory?

Joe M.

 

[K5MAR]

OK, just running this by for confirmation. Back on pg. 4 of this thread (I think) it was stated that the original Pro-92 will be able to handle the rebanded 800 MHz, since it uses the subaudible data rather than the control channel data that all other trunk tracking scanners use. Correct? :?

If so, I'm going to have to quit using my Mk1, Mod0 Pro-92 as a hackaround scanner!

Mark S.

 

[John_M]

UPMan Wrote:

Assuming rebanding can be accomodated at all, it will be implemented without losing compatibility with non-rebanded systems. Our plan is to support with the scanners I listed previously. The disclaimer at the bottom is very real, though...until a system actually goes "live" with rebanding, neither mfr (Uniden nor RS/GRE) knows for sure what will need to be done regarding either reprogramming (custom tables) or reflashing.

"The Assuming rebanding can be accomodated at all" This has me concerned. I think Uniden would hold off on the release of the BCD396T
until it is known quite certain that they will be able to be reflashed according to the new bandplan. The BCD396T is right in the middle of this FCC rebanding. In other words, it is due out in a time of uncertainty
with respect to the new band plan. Later models won't have this issue.
The engineers at Uniden believe that the units mentioned to be reflashable
are indeed going to be able to be reflashed according to the new bandplan.

Now, after the first sytems go up. It will take Uniden some time to provide the reflashable updates.


Voyager this isn't laughable is it. :lol:

 

[UPMan]

I'm not going to hold a completed scanner up for up to a year based on the slight (and let me emphasize again the word slight) possibility that it won't work after rebanding. If it won't work after rebanding, nothing that either GRE or Uniden makes will work (i.e. it isn't a hardware issue, it is a protocol/firmware issue). It would be somewhat similar to the system becoming like ProVoice or Tetra...should we not be selling scanners because those systems cannot be trunktracked?

 

[John_M]

UPMan:

I am glad you emphasized the word slight, I am also glad that you emphasized that it isn't a hardware issue and that it is a protocol/firmware issue. Why would it take up to a year? Does it take up to a year to put up a new system??? I don't know. I was thinking like three months. I am kinda liking the FCC Rebanding issue like the year 2000 bug when all computors were supposed to crash but nothing happened.

 

[K5MAR]

John, look at it from UPMan's position. We all know he is a Uniden Rep, possibly fairly high up the corporate ladder. (Consider his comment: "I'm not going to hold a completed scanner...") Anything he says on these boards can be construed as The Official Word From Uniden. Now, he may feel that they've got this whole rebanding thing "in the bag", but what if the FCC (or Motorola or Nextel or whoever) throws them a curveball and it takes some kind of new protocall to scan the new trunked systems. Just how loud is everybody going to scream then? "You said definately on RR.com that my scanner could be reflashed and now you say it can't!" Does the phrase "Class Action Lawsuit" spring to mind? Cut the guy some slack, he's just trying to cover his - well, you-know-what.

:lol:

Mark S.

 

[n4voxgill]

Mr. Opitz, UPMAN, is a very honorable person. I have never seen him make a negative comment about any competitor. He has been very open with his comments about Uniden products and when he made official announcements he included the fine print at the bottom of his post.

It seems to me that it is just as incumbant on the purchaser to know what he is buying as it is for the manufactuer. Look at the people that buy a Pro95 or BC245 and then complain they can't trunk track a digital system. It is certainly not the fault of the manufactuer that someone buys something that only does what they advertise.

The BC396 was built with the best knowledge they had at the time. You have a group of volunteer firemen that are chomping at the bit to get a 396 to decode tones, primarily on VHF. They want the scanner now. So if you want a scanner to decode after rebanding, then wait until after rebanding and see which ones can handle it.

But don't buy a scanner today and complain that it will not work tomorrow. Look before you leap. I do believe that the Uniden units that UPMAN has named will handle rebanding, along with the Radio Shack, GRE units. But I view right now as not the time to buy trunking radio.

 

[EricCottrell]

UPMan:

I am glad you emphasized the word slight, I am also glad that you emphasized that it isn't a hardware issue and that it is a protocol/firmware issue. Why would it take up to a year? Does it take up to a year to put up a new system??? I don't know. I was thinking like three months. I am kinda liking the FCC Rebanding issue like the year 2000 bug when all computors were supposed to crash but nothing happened.

Hello,

I am beginning to think it as well. It seems people expect the scanner to heat up and burst into flames once it decodes the first rebanded system!

I also see people confusing FCC Channel Numbers with the codes used on the control channel. Motorola may display FCC Channel Numbers in the programing software but the FCC Channel Numbers do not match the frequency codes in the protocol. Just because FCC Channel Numbers are changing does not mean the protocol changes.

People overlooked and ignored information from Motorola that states if the trunked system is not a NPSPAC system then the radio only needs to be reprogrammed and not reflashed. If the codes that represent the frequencies used by non-NPSPAC systems were changing then every single motorola radio would need to be reflashed or replaced.

If I was the software engineer handling the rebanding then I would go with minimum impact. The codes that define the old "splinter" NPSPAC frequencies would be redefined for the new "splinter" NPSPAC frequencies. This can be easily done since the current codes are not totally sequential by frequency anyway.

So based on Motorola's information I expect my older trunking scanners to not correctly trunktrack sites using NPSPAC frequencies.

I will be glad when the first rebanded systems get on the air and logged using trunker. Then the new code definitions will be confirmed.

73 Eric

 

[Voyager]

All other arguments aside, the scanners release is imminant from what UPM has said, and it should work fine TODAY. Should they hold it up until it no longer works? :shock:

Besides, there are scanner users who use scanners for Conventional, LTR, and EDACS, and those modes aren't affected by rebanding (short of reprogramming the frequencies used), so why should those people be punished?

700 MHz exists today (unlike rebanding), yet it is not supported in scanners released earlier this year. Yet, we are talking about a change that is a year away. Why isn't everyone complaining about 700 MHz that is here now, and why the PRO-2096 doesn't support it? The BCD396T MAY be the first scanner to support it.

Last, back on rebanding, nobody knows for absolute certain the bandplan that is going to be used, so WHAT would you have them include in the scanners? A GUESSED bandplan?

As Paul mentioned, what if the new systems 'go iDen'? OK, he used TETRA and ProVoice as examples. Same difference for our purposes. Nothing will work on them. That is so small a chance as to be hardly worth mentioning, but it's not impossible - especially with NexTel involved in the mix. Maybe the 'new radios' they buy the PS entities will be current iDen units.

I'm sure there will be many people who won't be afraid to buy a BCD396T based only on its other features. Besides, the firmware is flashable. That means if anything is possible, it will most likely be possible on a BCD396T.

I wish the BC780XLT units were supported, yet I just BOUGHT one for MilAir. That's right - regardless of its trunking performance. There is a specific task it has the reputation of doing better than any other unit, and that's why I purchased it. Yes, I could have waited and got one for likely a better price from a trunking user once rebanding hits, but all that would do is deprive me from a year of use. Some would say I bought an Edsel. It all depends on how you look at it.

As was said, if you want guaruntees a scanner will work after rebanding, wait to buy one after rebanding comes around - after the reports are in.

Joe M.

 

[UPMan]

"Why 1 year?"

Because the first NPSPAC (Public Safety) systems are not required to start converting until February 1, 2006...and they have until December 31, 2007 to actually complete implementation. My best guess is that it will be late Spring 2006 before there is a live system available for testing. If the change is simple, then firmware development/testing/beta testing/release should take 6-8 weeks. If the change isn't simple, all bets are off.

 

[EricCottrell]

700 MHz exists today (unlike rebanding), yet it is not supported in scanners released earlier this year. Yet, we are talking about a change that is a year away. Why isn't everyone complaining about 700 MHz that is here now, and why the PRO-2096 doesn't support it? The BCD396T MAY be the first scanner to support it.

As Paul mentioned, what if the new systems 'go iDen'? OK, he used TETRA and ProVoice as examples. Same difference for our purposes. Nothing will work on them. That is so small a chance as to be hardly worth mentioning, but it's not impossible - especially with NexTel involved in the mix. Maybe the 'new radios' they buy the PS entities will be current iDen units.
Joe M.

Hello,

The other band of interest is 380 MHz trunking. I think that will be of more interest because there are more systems active. 700 MHz is not available in all parts of the country yet. I have only heard of a few 700 MHz Passport LTR business systems in Texas and Kansas so far.

I seriously doubt that iDEN or any other technology will be mandated. Remember that it is not only the radios that need replacing but also the controllers, possibly repeaters, and other infrastruture bits so it would cost Nextel alot more money. Even if it was mandated, managers of non-NPSPAC systems would rail against it because it is already know that motorola radios only need reprogramming. There is no shortcoming of the Motorola trunked radio system that would require change of protocol.

Nextel, rather than providing Public Safety with iDEN equipment, will try to move Public Safety to it's iDEN network. Nextel phone customers will be migrated to Sprint so they need some use for the existing Nextel network.

73 Eric

 

[INDY72]

And there my friends is the proof that it is only PS that must go digital on 700 .... TY... Vindicated... What proof you ask? Passport LTR has NO digital flavors,.. In fact currently there is NO digital format/flavor at all for ANY LTR..... As to the new uber P-25 system being put out by EFJ... we will have to all wait and see exactly what type of flavor this will be... All we know is that is is gonna be a fully encryptable system, fully P-25 compliant.... thats it. It may be closer to say a ASTRO-25,.. or it could be a similar format to EDACS, but with subtle changes to make it true P-25..... Or maybe its a new suoped up LTR that actually is P-25???


As to the scanners and the rebanding.. Letsa just be patient and wait till we see actual systems redone online, on air, and then we will see what we see...


And yes I agree.. WHY have we all not been yelling for GRE, or Uniden to get the ball rolling on 700 P-25 scanning capability????? Or just 700 scanning in any flavor/format???? And yes lets add the new 380 for scanning....

 

[scannerfreak]

Since we are on the subject of 700 MHz, I submitted this for news a few days ago:

McCain DTV bill gives public safety hope for more 700 MHz spectrum

WASHINGTON-Public safety could receive more spectrum in the 700 MHz band if a bill expected to be introduced today is enacted into law.

"The Federal Communications Commission and the Department of Homeland Security are required to deliver a report to Congress on whether public-safety entities require more spectrum in addition to the 24 megahertz. This report is due by Dec. 17," reads a memo about the bill obtained by RCR Wireless News. Congress will have "one year to consider the report and if necessary to provide more spectrum for public safety before the FCC auctions the returned spectrum."

The Save Lives Act is being introduced by Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.), former chairman of the Senate Commerce Committee, and Sen. Joe Lieberman (D-Conn.), ranking member of the Senate Homeland-Security Committee. RCR Wireless News first reported McCain's plans last week.

In 1997, Congress dictated that 24 megahertz be given to public safety and 36 megahertz be auctioned to commercial services. The FCC has already auctioned 6 megahertz of the 36 megahertz for guard-band spectrum. One of the major winners of the spectrum, Nextel Communications Inc., recently agreed to return the guard-band spectrum to the commission as part of the FCC's plan to solve public-safety interference in the 800 MHz band. It also has auctioned some of the 30 megahertz to rural providers and another lower 700 MHz band rural license auction is scheduled for this summer. There is no official decision yet as to what to do with the remaining 48 megahertz of spectrum.

The Save Lives Act would also set a hard date for the end of the transition to digital TV at Jan. 1, 2009, with an auction of available spectrum no later than April 30, 2008, and proceeds to the U.S. Treasury no later than June 30, 2008.

McCain's move likely will pre-empt the current chairman of the Senate Commerce Committee, Sen. Ted Stevens (R-Alaska), who said June 6 that he is preparing a similar bill, but did not give a timeframe for introducing it.

The Save Lives Act will be similar to legislation by the same name that McCain introduced last year but will reduce the set-top box subsidy from $1 billion to $463 million plus administrative costs. This amount is expected to cover the 9.2 million low-income homes that receive their TV signals from free over-the-air broadcasting. Low income is defined as up to 200 percent above the poverty line.

Democrats on the House Commerce Committee were critical of the House staff draft when it did not include a set-top box subsidy.

The FCC and the General Services Administration would administer the set-top box subsidy program. These agencies would work with broadcasters to distribute the boxes.

In addition to Lieberman, McCain is expected to be joined by former Gov. Thomas Kean (R-N.J.) and former Rep. Lee Hamilton (D-Ind.), chairman and vice chairman of the 9/11 Commission, at the press conference. The 9/11 Commission said the spectrum that TV broadcasters are using needs to be reclaimed to help public safety.

McCain's Saves Lives Act was at the center of a debate during consideration of the intelligence-reform bill, but the Senate sacrificed commercial-wireless interests as it passed an amendment that would force TV broadcasters to give back the 700 MHz spectrum if public-safety users showed bona-fide needs.

In 1997, Congress said that in 2007, broadcasters would have to return the extra 6 megahertz of spectrum in the 700 MHz band given to TV broadcasters to facilitate the DTV transition. But TV broadcasters could keep the spectrum if more than 15 percent of the homes in their viewing areas could not receive digital signals. Removing the caveat has become known as establishing a hard date and has been widely encouraged by the wireless industry, which wants access to some of the spectrum.

 

[Voyager]

Nextel, rather than providing Public Safety with iDEN equipment, will try to move Public Safety to it's iDEN network. Nextel phone customers will be migrated to Sprint so they need some use for the existing Nextel network.

I'm not at all convinced that's not what NexTel's plans are. :shock:

Oh, don't worry about the infrastructure - we'll provide that for you (since it's ALREADY IN PLACE in many areas). And just flash your radios to work with our iDen network. We'll give you much more broad coverage, too. And it will only cost you $X/Mo/unit. Net result, NexTel 'paid' for their new infrastructure, and will pay for the reflash, and will provide them with replacement (iDen) units for the units that can't be flashed.

BTW, the private customers will be moved to their new 865-869 MHz iDen network - the one they are going to add to their existing sites. Although moving them to Sprint is a possibility, too.

Joe M.

 

[loumaag]

Once again, the topic drift is wandering in. Please don't mention 700 MHz in this topic, it has nothing to do with the rebanding of the 800 MHz spectrum. :x

 

[N_Jay]

As to the new uber P-25 system being put out by EFJ... we will have to all wait and see exactly what type of flavor this will be......

What do you mean by "flavor"

All we know is that is is gonna be a fully encryptable system, fully P-25 compliant.... thats it. It may be closer to say a ASTRO-25,.. or it could be a similar format to EDACS, but with subtle changes to make it true P-25..... Or maybe its a new suoped up LTR that actually is P-25??? ...

Now you lost me. What aspects of P-25, EDACS, and LTR are you taking about?

IF it is P-25, then it is P-25, not EDACS like at all, nor LTR like at all.

 

[John_M]

The only thing that Nextel has to offer Public Safety is their Direct Contect solution which uses the IDEN technology. This may be good for businesses but for Public Safety? BTW Nextel was bought out buy Sprint, in six months their will be no more Nextel it will be Sprint. Sprint
wants the cell phone space after rebanding. Sprint is basically a cell phone provider and I think they are more interested in the 800mhz space
rather then trying to push Nextel's Direct Connect solution onto Public
Safety. In 2007 the Nascar series will be the Srint Cup Nascar Series.

 

[N_Jay]

The only thing that Nextel has to offer Public Safety is their Direct Contect solution which uses the IDEN technology. This may be good for businesses but for Public Safety? BTW Nextel was bought out buy Sprint, in six months their will be no more Nextel it will be Sprint. Sprint
wants the cell phone space after rebanding. Sprint is basically a cell phone provider and I think they are more interested in the 800mhz space
rather then trying to push Nextel's Direct Connect solution onto Public
Safety. In 2007 the Nascar series will be the Srint Cup Nascar Series.

You sure or guessing? :roll:

The Nextel brand is fairly strong and to throw that away would not be smart.

Sprint has also chased the "business" market like Nextel has.
Sprints CDMA network would require custom equipment to us the Nextel 800 MHz frequencies since that band is NOT used for cellular (or any CDMA) anywhere in the world.

My guess is they will use the combined Sprint and Nextel 1900 frequencies to expand the Sprint Network.
They will move most "Cellular" customers here, as well as casual (Personal) direct connect (using CDMA PTT).

They will use the Nextel 800 and 900 MHz frequencies to maintain the Nextel network, and focus this network on Government and larger enterprise Direct Connect customers.

They will combine the LMDS and MMDS licenses owned by both Sprint and Nextel (both of which bought up the remainder of the MCI channels from the bankruptcy) to build a fixed and low mobility mobile data service.

Of course this is all a guess, as I have no direct knowledge of the interworkings of Nextel nor Sprint (Well not in the last several years)
:wink: :twisted:

 

[John_M]

There are 5 cell phone providers now: Nextel, Sprint, Verizon,
Cingular and TD Mobile. Nextel and Sprint each have there own version
of "Direct Connect" Nextel uses IDEN and Sprint uses CDMA technology.
(Verizon also has their version of "Direct Connect".)

I think that Sprint just wants the space after rebanding. The only thing that Sprint has to offer Public Safety is either Nextel's "Direct Contect" or Sprint's version of "Direct connect" one uses IDEN technology the other uses CDMA. Is "Direct Connect" good for use with Public Safety?
Using cell phones for Public Safety???

This has no concern for us but in the end their will be only 3 cell phone providers. Sprint, Cingular, and Verizon. (Verizon plans to buy out TD Mobile)

 

[John_M]

N,Jay Wrote:

You sure or guessing?

This information came from a Verizon employee. Is he guessing, I don't think so. (Edited)

http://sprintnextel.mergerannouncement.com

Here it says that the new company is going to be called Sprint Nextel.
He thinks it will be called Sprint in the end. I will see him in about a half an hour, I'll try to get some more information.