Fire Department radio selection

[ve2hkw]

So as to not hijack an existing thread, posting a new one here. For those just joining the program, see here: VP8000 NXDN confirmed

PLEASE don't do that. Maybe not equip ever fire fighter with a VP8000.

Yeah, I don't see the budget supporting a complete transition all at once, so I'm trying to figure out what might be best to get things implemented, even if it is painful. The end goal would be to sunset the Hytera radios over time and move to NX/VP radios. As mentioned before it would be nice if the VP5000 had DMR, but that isn't currently offered so we are SOL on that.

Batteries, speaker mics, and chargers are the same between the VP and NX

I think the RSM port is actually different between the VP and the NX, but I'll know for sure today

The end goal is to have reliable radios, interop would be amazing, and I really want to push that, but I don't know if I have the political clout to push this all the way to a VP8K. Moving anything along in an organization is slow isn't it lol

A little back story, the radios we have now are Hytera PD662i and Hytera HP682. Part of the reason we have them is because the radio shop the department always delt with (started long before I joined) used to do Vertex and Moto, but then drama ensued in the Moto world and they were Hytera only. Leadership at the time (2018ish) just went with what they offered and here we are today.... Everyone yearns for the Vertex radios of yeold, and we had 2-3 different models of those radios as well to manage... As with anything worth doing, you have 20 years of history to wade through to understand the subtleties of everything.

All ya'lls feedback is greatly appreciated, and any tips/tricks are welcomed.

Harrison -- VE2HKW

 

[wd8chl]

The NX-5K, VP-5K, 6K, and 8K series all use the same batteries, speaker-mics, and chargers.
And the sooner you can get rid of those HYT radios, the better. They've been on the edge of being withdrawn from the NA market for several years because of their legal issues. And the quality is just not there.

 

[kayn1n32008]

The only issue I see with deploying the NX5xxx radios is the software. It sucks. I've gotten to get hands on with a VP8000 and it's a nice radio, I've used the NX5x00 and it's a nice radio too.

I just really don't care for KPG-D1(NX5xxx) software.

Maybe VM8000 In every unit, VP8000 for officers and NX-5200 for ranks below officer?

If you use Simplex DMR on the fire ground, I'd change it to P25 or analogue. The half rate vocoder sounds like ass compared to P25.

 

[mmckenna]

I'd agree with the others. Keep this simple.

It's been a few years since I supported a fire agency, but I do still support a police department.
One of the bigger costs is ongoing support. Things like batteries, antennas, speaker mics, periodic alignment. All those things get easier/less expensive if you have a common platform to deal with. Might be higher up front costs, but over the 5-10 year lifespan of the radio, you're going to come out ahead.

The 8000's appear to be nice radios, but I think everyone carrying one is getting excessive unless there is a very well established need to interoperate with departments all on different bands all the time. If all your local agencies are on different bands, then it would make more sense to all sit down together and find a common interoperability solution. Every person carrying a $5000 radio isn't the right approach. Maybe one in each truck, maybe a mobile in each truck, but not every. single. person.

 

[ve2hkw]

The NX-5K, VP-5K, 6K, and 8K series all use the same batteries, speaker-mics, and chargers.
And the sooner you can get rid of those HYT radios, the better. They've been on the edge of being withdrawn from the NA market for several years because of their legal issues. And the quality is just not there.

This is good to know and definitely makes the idea of going NX for lower ranks and VP for higher ranks more desirable. I also agree with the HYT phaseout, they aren't bad radios, but not suitable for public service.

Maybe VM8000 In every unit, VP8000 for officers and NX-5200 for ranks below officer?

If you use Simplex DMR on the fire ground, I'd change it to P25 or analogue. The half rate vocoder sounds like ass compared to P25.

I'll be tackling mobile units next, our current setup is an APX4500 from the US mutual aid bit, and a Hytera Mobile for us. There is one portable (handheld) radio in one truck to talk to the mutual aid to our north, and that seems shortsighted... I'll reference your signature box with "Interoperatablity is not a technology, it is an attitude!!!"

Our simplex channel is the output frequency of our repeater because....... well.... someone thought that was a good idea. No one (other than me) seems to understand why Central can hear us on direct when we are under the tower at the fire station with the antenna for their gateway.....


Basically, we have to follow the conditions of our radio license which is in itself screwed up a little bit (This conclusion was drawn after talking with another friend in radio who isn't local but went over some stuff with me) so P25 isn't an option right now, but it could be interesting to consider.

I'd agree with the others. Keep this simple.

It's been a few years since I supported a fire agency, but I do still support a police department.
One of the bigger costs is ongoing support. Things like batteries, antennas, speaker mics, periodic alignment. All those things get easier/less expensive if you have a common platform to deal with. Might be higher up front costs, but over the 5-10 year lifespan of the radio, you're going to come out ahead.

The 8000's appear to be nice radios, but I think everyone carrying one is getting excessive unless there is a very well established need to interoperate with departments all on different bands all the time. If all your local agencies are on different bands, then it would make more sense to all sit down together and find a common interoperability solution. Every person carrying a $5000 radio isn't the right approach. Maybe one in each truck, maybe a mobile in each truck, but not every. single. person.

I agree that the best outcome would be one system that serves everyone, but we are in a unique position where we are kinda independent with close ties to most of the departments around us... Plus it would be coordinating 2 countries, 2 languages, 2+ centrals, and about 20 municipalities to move to a system like that. So I agree that a 5000 dollar radio on everyone's hip isn't the answer, I'd argue that for the 10 or so guys who do respond mutual aid and the officers that don't should have interop capability, but the in territory only guys would get an NX-5200.

Another factor here is that we had a repeater failure of our system one night, and realized we didn't have a plan B in place. No one had a radio to contact our Canadian central and we had to get times and such from our US central. (I'll remove the internet mask here and say this is for the Hemmingford, Qc fire department, we are technically a station in the US mutual aid system, but have our own central in Canada, and effectively sign in and sign out of both dispatches for every call. It's been this way since the 50s, and it works surprisingly well, but I feel we could push a little and be a lot better)

Thanks all again, the knowledge that the batteries are the same makes choices a lot easier. Also, the whole perpetual license thing with EFJ/KW sounds like a somewhat future proof way of upgrading in the future.

 

[mmckenna]

I agree that the best outcome would be one system that serves everyone, but we are in a unique position where we are kinda independent with close ties to most of the departments around us... Plus it would be coordinating 2 countries, 2 languages, 2+ centrals, and about 20 municipalities to move to a system like that. So I agree that a 5000 dollar radio on everyone's hip isn't the answer, I'd argue that for the 10 or so guys who do respond mutual aid and the officers that don't should have interop capability, but the in territory only guys would get an NX-5200.

Yeah, that's a pretty unique situation.

We're not quite as complex, but our fire department was merged with the adjacent agency and are dispatched by them. However, when they are handling a call in our area, they respond to our dispatch center, not the countywide. So they do check in/out with two agencies.
Being all VHF analog, that makes it easier.

I'd still suggest you carefully question if each and every member needs a multiband radio. Usually a mulitband mobile in the engine will handle logging in/out with dispatch easily enough.
For fireground, just use simplex on whatever band you have.

There will always be challenges and the "what if's", but budgets are real and often these challenges can be met several ways.

Another factor here is that we had a repeater failure of our system one night, and realized we didn't have a plan B in place. No one had a radio to contact our Canadian central and we had to get times and such from our US central. (I'll remove the internet mask here and say this is for the Hemmingford, Qc fire department, we are technically a station in the US mutual aid system, but have our own central in Canada, and effectively sign in and sign out of both dispatches for every call. It's been this way since the 50s, and it works surprisingly well, but I feel we could push a little and be a lot better)

Some of the established interoperability frequencies should be cross border capable. Have you researched that as a solution. You guys sound like the exact reason these exist for cross border communications.

Thanks all again, the knowledge that the batteries are the same makes choices a lot easier. Also, the whole perpetual license thing with EFJ/KW sounds like a somewhat future proof way of upgrading in the future.

Not sure how long you typically run your radios. I know it's different with extremely rural and volunteer departments. Usually 5-7 years is common in my area, and if you take a $1000 radio and spread that cost out over 7-10 years (or more in your case), then it gets to be not quite expensive as it would seem. Replacing batteries, antennas and speaker mics every year is where it gets expensive for us.

 

[ve2hkw]

Some of the established interoperability frequencies should be cross border capable. Have you researched that as a solution. You guys sound like the exact reason these exist for cross border communications.

So... That's kinda why multi-band is important. The US are 800 MHz only (Moto APX6000 are their bread and butter) We are VHF, and the north is UHF. There are many interop frequencies, but none that a monoband radio can handle in any great capacity.

In case I wasn't clear, I'm not wanting everyone to have a multiband multimode powerhouse, it isn't needed at all. But for those that are active and respond out of bounds, it would be beneficial if when we are doing interior at a mutual aid call that we don't need 3 people with 3 radios all standing next to each other to talk. You are right that budgets are real, and I've been working to make sure that any expensive purchases are reasonable and logical.

Our last radio system before the Hyteras were pushing 12-14 years old, so yeah, our evolution is usually over the long term. I know I have many many people on the department asking for better radios, and some even commented that "We should get the radios like they have in Longueuil Qc. (we have had a ridealong program with them due to one of their Senior officers being a member of the Hemmingford Department in his off time) and that was a VP6000.... So there is a desire for change and for progress.

Thanks for the critical feedback. It helps a tonne. It is very very hard to beat experience in the field

 

[mmckenna]

Ouch, so you guys really are the "multiband radio" poster children. That's tough being stuck in the middle like that.

On the US side, this would be where I'd recommend finding someone whose really good at writing grant requests. Not sure how it works in Canada.

Good news is that there's a number of good options for radios. Tait, Motorola, Kenwood/EFJ, Harris, Bendix King. Prices seem to be coming down as more come out.

At least they are not trying to use Baofengs and looking for the right gear.

 

[ve2hkw]

At least they are not trying to use Baofengs and looking for the right gear.

My brain just twitched..... holy smokes that would be bad..... Thanks for making the Hyteras look good lol!

Yeah, I'd like to push for more inter-agency training, and I'm the one guy who knows radios on the department, so I'm trying to push my little project to improve things overall. We'll see how things shake down

 

[mmckenna]

My brain just twitched..... holy smokes that would be bad..... Thanks for making the Hyteras look good lol!

Very common occurrence down here. And trying to argue with them is pointless. They read something on the internet and there's no way to change their minds.

 

[DeoVindice]

The only issue I see with deploying the NX5xxx radios is the software. It sucks. I've gotten to get hands on with a VP8000 and it's a nice radio, I've used the NX5x00 and it's a nice radio too.

I just really don't care for KPG-D1(NX5xxx) software.

Maybe VM8000 In every unit, VP8000 for officers and NX-5200 for ranks below officer?

If you use Simplex DMR on the fire ground, I'd change it to P25 or analogue. The half rate vocoder sounds like ass compared to P25.

If you can get away from DMR (which should be done for a variety of reasons), VP5000s become an option for second-tier radios which gets around the clunky KPG-D1 and puts everything in Armada. You then have common programming and user interface (other than the top display and 4-position rocker switch) with the same batteries, RSMs, charger, and programming cable. A VP5000 is simply an NX5000 running EFJ firmware with a slightly different keypad membrane.

 

[kayn1n32008]

So... That's kinda why multi-band is important. The US are 800 MHz only (Moto APX6000 are their bread and butter) We are VHF, and the north is UHF. There are many interop frequencies, but none that a monoband radio can handle in any great capacity.

In case I wasn't clear, I'm not wanting everyone to have a multiband multimode powerhouse, it isn't needed at all.

Food for thought.

-VM8000 for all your apparatus gives you the ability to interop on the way to the calls.

-VP8000 for officers(they are the ones thay actually have to talk to other departments.)

-VP6000 or VP5000(one is getting cancelled) portables in VHF for the rank and file officers.

-As money allows, buy additional VHF RF decks and add them to the VM8000's Viking mobiles can now be used as EVRS(Enhanced Vehicular Repeater Sysyem or something close to that) if you have P25 portables, there is no transcoding, and your not converting am analogue signal to digital voice. Get a P25 VHF repeater and get rid of DMR.

You may not need a VRS when in your jurisdiction, but when you mutual aid, if you have a VRS and it's connected to your all band mobile, you can cross band to 800MHz and 420/450MHz, or where ever your UHF mutual aid partners operate and every one can communicate.

It isn't going to cheap, but it may be cheaper than denying all band to every one. I don't know, someone would have to figure out the costs of each option and see where it comes to.

 

[kayn1n32008]

Food for thought.

-VM8000 for all your apparatus gives you the ability to interop on the way to the calls.

-VP8000 for officers(they are the ones that actually have to talk to other departments.)

-VP6000 or VP5000(one is getting cancelled) portables in VHF for the rank and file officers.

-As money allows, buy additional VHF RF decks and add them to the VM8000's Viking mobiles can now be used as EVRS(Enhanced Vehicular Repeater Sysyem or something close to that) if you have P25 portables, there is no transcoding, and your not converting an analogue signal to digital voice. Get a P25 VHF repeater and get rid of DMR.

You may not need a VRS when in your jurisdiction, but when you mutual aid, if you have a VRS and it's connected to your all band mobile, you can cross band to 800MHz and 420/450MHz, or where ever your UHF mutual aid partners operate and every one can communicate.

It isn't going to cheap, but it may be cheaper than deploying all band to every one. I don't know, someone would have to figure out the costs of each option and see where it comes to.

JFC. Stupid phone, I absolutely hate this phone, because of the width of it, and the autocorrect absolutely sucks ass.

DEPLOYING not denying. Maybe a mod can some by and fix the three errors(at least) in the original post.

I also think I was told, that they will cross band and cross mode but that might be just between VM8000 mobiles, also, I don't know if the VM7000(which ever has HF-Lo besides the NX series) is going to get a mode upgrade to include DMR or NXDN, or if it can be stacked mixed model with the VM8000. One can wish😏

 

[kayn1n32008]

If you can get away from DMR (which should be done for a variety of reasons), VP5000s become an option for second-tier radios which gets around the clunky KPG-D1 and puts everything in Armada. You then have common programming and user interface (other than the top display and 4-position rocker switch) with the same batteries, RSMs, charger, and programming cable. A VP5000 is simply an NX5000 running EFJ firmware with a slightly different keypad membrane.

Oh yes, 100% yes. Stay as far away from KPG-D1 as you can.

I wish Kenwood would just port all the currently P25 capable NX radios to Armada. Let EFJ take care of the P25 offerings, they are some top shelf guys doing the firmware.

And yes. OP you really need to Ditch DMR. Go to a P25 conventional repeater.

Make your vendor take the time to optimize DSP, EQ, and AGC attack time. Once it's been optimized, P25 sounds really good. You will wish you never used DMR at all.

Even legacy IMBE sounds better than half rate(DMR, P25 P2) AMBE+. OP will not regret ditching DMR for conventional P25.

We have a quantar up and running on a ham frequency that a few of us are using with Astro Saber, XTS2500, XTS3000, XTS5000 and NX5300. Three of us spent a couple hours optimizing the NX5300 audio, and got it sounding very similar to the XTS series.

I'll never miss static, hiss, picket fencing, and wildly varying audio levels of analogue.

 

[kayn1n32008]

I also agree with the HYT phaseout, they aren't bad radios, but not suitable for public service.

DMR isn't terrible, but it does not have a place in the fire service.

I'll be tackling mobile units next, our current setup is an APX4500 from the US mutual aid bit, and a Hytera Mobile for us. There is one portable (handheld) radio in one truck to talk to the mutual aid to our north, and that seems shortsighted...

I'd agree. Nothing wrong with the APX4500. It's a decent radio. Never have I gotten to use Hytera radios so I can not comment about them.

I'll reference your signature box with "Interoperatablity is not a technology, it is an attitude!!!"

Thank you. The technology CAN help facilitate it, BUT you got to leave the ego at the door when hashing out how it looks to your specific situation.

It sucks because you actually have to be able to use 3 different bands and 3 different modes. If you do any sort of wildland interface work, you may also need VHF analogue. It becomes doubly difficult if you are mutual aid to the US for interface fire and need VHF.

VHF analogue
VHF Tier 2 DMR
UHF analogue
7/800MHz P25 Phase 2


You really don't have a single channel you can use, interoperability has to be partner specific in your case. Those in charge need to understand that it's not one size fits all.

Our simplex channel is the output frequency of our repeater because....... well.... someone thought that was a good idea. No one (other than me) seems to understand why Central can hear us on direct when we are under the tower at the fire station with the antenna for their gateway.....

Oh man. Simplex should not be on the repeater output when using digital modes. I'm guessing it was done due to cross border coordination.

Digital LMR isn't anything like analogue.

Basically, we have to follow the conditions of our radio license which is in itself screwed up a little bit (This conclusion was drawn after talking with another friend in radio who isn't local but went over some stuff with me) so P25 isn't an option right now, but it could be interesting to consider.

It pretty simple to add emissions to your license.

What isn't simple, is the international coordination of trying to find a simplex frequency for both Canada and the US.

Again it's a very unique situation operation across an international border, because you are operating in two different jurisdictions, with VERY different LMR rules and requirements.

I agree that the best outcome would be one system that serves everyone, but we are in a unique position where we are kinda independent with close ties to most of the departments around us... Plus it would be coordinating 2 countries, 2 languages, 2+ centrals, and about 20 municipalities to move to a system like that. So I agree that a 5000 dollar radio on everyone's hip isn't the answer, I'd argue that for the 10 or so guys who do respond mutual aid and the officers that don't should have interop capability, but the in territory only guys would get an NX-5200.

I'd love to actually see how it all works with my own eyes, but I am stuck in Alberta, and it's a bit of a trek to get to you.

Another factor here is that we had a repeater failure of our system one night, and realized we didn't have a plan B in place.

That's no fun.

You always need a plan B.

No one had a radio to contact our Canadian central and we had to get times and such from our US central. (I'll remove the internet mask here and say this is for the Hemmingford, Qc fire department, we are technically a station in the US mutual aid system, but have our own central in Canada, and effectively sign in and sign out of both dispatches for every call. It's been this way since the 50s, and it works surprisingly well, but I feel we could push a little and be a lot better)

Thanks all again, the knowledge that the batteries are the same makes choices a lot easier. Also, the whole perpetual license thing with EFJ/KW sounds like a somewhat future proof way of upgrading in the future.

EFJ/Kenwood is doing some very interesting things these days. Its refreshing to see how they are listening and responding to the industries wants and needs at quite competitive prices.

They are listening, not dictating, like a certain other Department of Sales Prevention.

 

[ve2hkw]

If you can get away from DMR (which should be done for a variety of reasons), VP5000s become an option for second-tier radios which gets around the clunky KPG-D1 and puts everything in Armada.

I totally get this and see this point, but I don't have the political capital to pull off a change that big with the bean counters right now. Add in the complicating fact that the radio company we are with is using our second slot of the DMR repeater for another mutual aid group.... That I don't really understand and haven't gotten up the nerve to ask questions I really don't want to know the answers to. Needless to say, as much as I've heard amazing things about Armada, that isn't really an option right now.

Food for thought.

-VM8000 for all your apparatus gives you the ability to interop on the way to the calls.

-VP8000 for officers(they are the ones thay actually have to talk to other departments.)

-VP6000 or VP5000(one is getting cancelled) portables in VHF for the rank and file officers.

So one thing to note is that our volunteer department has structure, but is also kinda loose with that structure. Any one of us could become the person in charge depending on the availability of personnel. This system works okay as generally there is at least one officer available, but we've had some calls that were admittedly low priority (flooded basement/car vs. deer/verification at "that" address) where there were no officers involved. That's kinda why I want to have the level of flexibility in the recommendation I'm preparing to have officers and people who do mutual aid to have the option of getting a VP-8000. It is bulky for a daily carry, so I'm not sure if that will be viewed as a viable option, but I want to present it as having been considered at least.

-As money allows, buy additional VHF RF decks and add them to the VM8000's Viking mobiles can now be used as EVRS(Enhanced Vehicular Repeater Sysyem or something close to that) if you have P25 portables, there is no transcoding, and your not converting am analogue signal to digital voice. Get a P25 VHF repeater and get rid of DMR.

You may not need a VRS when in your jurisdiction, but when you mutual aid, if you have a VRS and it's connected to your all band mobile, you can cross band to 800MHz and 420/450MHz, or where ever your UHF mutual aid partners operate and every one can communicate.

So.... One of my other things that I've been trying hard to figure out is what is part of the APCO P25 standard and what is vendor lock-in. I did look quickly into EVRS which looks super cool, but seems very non-standard and brand specific. In considering options, I really really really want to go with standards compliant stuff so that portability is maintained. It does look like a really nice option and solves some problems while generating new questions.

Oh yes, 100% yes. Stay as far away from KPG-D1 as you can.

I wish Kenwood would just port all the currently P25 capable NX radios to Armada. Let EFJ take care of the P25 offerings, they are some top shelf guys doing the firmware.

And yes. OP you really need to Ditch DMR. Go to a P25 conventional repeater.

Make your vendor take the time to optimize DSP, EQ, and AGC attack time. Once it's been optimized, P25 sounds really good. You will wish you never used DMR at all.

Even legacy IMBE sounds better than half rate(DMR, P25 P2) AMBE+. OP will not regret ditching DMR for conventional P25.

We have a quantar up and running on a ham frequency that a few of us are using with Astro Saber, XTS2500, XTS3000, XTS5000 and NX5300. Three of us spent a couple hours optimizing the NX5300 audio, and got it sounding very similar to the XTS series.

I'll never miss static, hiss, picket fencing, and wildly varying audio levels of analogue.

So, I believe at this point it is going to be the vendor using the KPG-D1 and not me individually, but I have used software from Kenwood in the past for another completely unrelated project and I was feeling the frustrated nostalgia of windows 95 interfaces lol. I get it but unless the VP5000 pulls through with a DMR update, then it just really isn't an option "right now". One of my goals is to move to P25, but that might be 10+ years away with how fast change happens

When you say tuning the DSP and such, what exactly do you mean? Admittedly I'm used to cheap radios in the Amateur radio hobby and Hytera in the commercial world, so what kind of options would that even have? I can see how tweaking the settings can help, but not sure how to internalize that and express it to the people.

Also, Is IMBE vs. AMBE+ really that big of a difference? I can see advantages in a dual slot setup and halving battery consumption is always a nice benefit, but is conventional P25 really that much better? Yes I've asked the equivalent of a political question at thanksgiving, no I am serious and curious what the word on the street is regarding CODECs lol!

DMR isn't terrible, but it does not have a place in the fire service.

I'd agree. Nothing wrong with the APX4500. It's a decent radio. Never have I gotten to use Hytera radios so I can not comment about them.

Thank you. The technology CAN help facilitate it, BUT you got to leave the ego at the door when hashing out how it looks to your specific situation.

I hear this all the time, about DMR and public safety being a no-no. Something that I'd really like to know about is if there are any implementations that have gone wrong and gotten news coverage/reporting as unfortunately people usually have to die before change happens.... If you all know of anything, let me know.
I haven't researched if we are loaned, rent or purchased the APX4500 in all our trucks. As mentioned earlier, I have a bit of a vision in mind and limited political capital to spend, so little projects, one at a time, with a roadmap to something better is how I'm approaching this right now. Replacing the Hytera and Moto radios in the trucks for one unit would be lovely, but we only have one truck coming up for replacement right now and I'm only going to focus on that truck for any kind of single device integration. It will likely have pump in compartment, so I'm hoping to get a second radio head on an NX-5x00 setup or a VM8000.
I'm expecting some interop stuff to be really easy to figure out, and some to be close to impossible because of Ego, but I'm trying to make sure the hardware can support the relationships

Oh man. Simplex should not be on the repeater output when using digital modes. I'm guessing it was done due to cross border coordination.

Digital LMR isn't anything like analogue.

I know that, and you know that.... but I'm guessing that the radio shop just copied what we had on analog and rolled with it in digital. We only have one frequency pair just for our one department, which isn't the end of the world.... oh wait.... remember when I said that they were using the second slot for a neighboring system?..... yeah..... Not expecting that to end well....
I don't believe it was directly because of the international border, but I'm expecting that the reason it isn't split out as a seperate simplex frequency is because there just isn't one available to purchase if we wanted it.

It pretty simple to add emissions to your license.

I agree, however, I'm not sure what communications have gone on way back when the switch to digital occurred, but I know that the chief has been told that we should count our lucky stars that our license hasn't been canceled because we are a single department on one frequency pair and that anything to do with changing anything at ISED and the radio vendor are big deals..... I really don't know how to take that but anyways......

That's no fun.

You always need a plan B.

Indeed, and that isn't in existance right now..... so trying to work that into the vision as well as the more basic things like having radios that work in anything more than a breeze.... Had a vehicle fire yesterday and anyone talking without shielding their mic was completely garbled by the wind, which was firm but nothing to write home about.

EFJ/Kenwood is doing some very interesting things these days. Its refreshing to see how they are listening and responding to the industries wants and needs at quite competitive prices.

They are listening, not dictating, like a certain other Department of Sales Prevention.

I agree and one of the reasons I see them as a good option is because they are trying to price compeditively, and are also making radios that do more than one thing. It is all well and good to make a 800 MHz PS band, but when no one can move till everyone moves.... that's a problem.

In Alberta, is there anyone running DMR or something that isn't P25 or analog in the Public safety sphere? I'm curious what it is like out that way. Canada always seems to be behind the US in adopting the right system for the right purpose.

Cheers,
Harrison

 

[kayn1n32008]

I totally get this and see this point, but I don't have the political capital to pull off a change that big with the bean counters right now. Add in the complicating fact that the radio company we are with is using our second slot of the DMR repeater for another mutual aid group.... That I don't really understand and haven't gotten up the nerve to ask questions I really don't want to know the answers to. Needless to say, as much as I've heard amazing things about Armada, that isn't really an option right now.

Yea, that sucks. You really need to know the answer though.

So one thing to note is that our volunteer department has structure, but is also kinda loose with that structure. Any one of us could become the person in charge depending on the availability of personnel. This system works okay as generally there is at least one officer available, but we've had some calls that were admittedly low priority (flooded basement/car vs. deer/verification at "that" address) where there were no officers involved. That's kinda why I want to have the level of flexibility in the recommendation I'm preparing to have officers and people who do mutual aid to have the option of getting a VP-8000. It is bulky for a daily carry, so I'm not sure if that will be viewed as a viable option, but I want to present it as having been considered at least.

I don't think the VP8000 is too bulky to EDC, but I don't mind carrying a radio.

So.... One of my other things that I've been trying hard to figure out is what is part of the APCO P25 standard and what is vendor lock-in. I did look quickly into EVRS which looks super cool, but seems very non-standard and brand specific. In considering options, I really really really want to go with standards compliant stuff so that portability is maintained. It does look like a really nice option and solves some problems while generating new questions.

I do t know if it's vendor lock in, because I haven't seen anything other than high level info. I don't know how they are actually doing it, or what the limitations of it are yet.

So, I believe at this point it is going to be the vendor using the KPG-D1 and not me individually, but I have used software from Kenwood in the past for another completely unrelated project and I was feeling the frustrated nostalgia of windows 95 interfaces lol. I get it but unless the VP5000 pulls through with a DMR update, then it just really isn't an option "right now". One of my goals is to move to P25, but that might be 10+ years away with how fast change happens

D1 is totally different than any other ke wood software.

When you say tuning the DSP and such, what exactly do you mean?

there are a bunch of audio specific settings that can be adjusted. It takes time and effort to Taylor the audio. It's much different than how you set up analogue because it's audio that is being digitized and being processed. You can add and remove low, mid and high frequencies like you would do with an EQ on a stereo. There is AGC and how fast and hard it clamps down on audio amplitude.

Admittedly I'm used to cheap radios in the Amateur radio hobby and Hytera in the commercial world, so what kind of options would that even have? I can see how tweaking the settings can help, but not sure how to internalize that and express it to the people.

I don't know how to internalize it either, but to demo stock audio settings and demo tailored audio settings. It makes a world of difference. Especially AGC.

Also, Is IMBE vs. AMBE+ really that big of a difference? I can see advantages in a dual slot setup and halving battery consumption is always a nice benefit, but is conventional P25 really that much better?

YES. It is better because your voice data payload is double that of DMR or P25 Phase 2. More payload means more data for transmitting voice means better audio quality.

Yes I've asked the equivalent of a political question at thanksgiving, no I am serious and curious what the word on the street is regarding CODECs lol!

AMBE+ is a newer CODEC than IMBE, and can sound better. But it is also compatible with IMBE.

I hear this all the time, about DMR and public safety being a no-no.

Sure you can use DMR. Nothing prevents you. However the audio quality is not near as good as P25, and generally the hardware isn't as robust.

Something that I'd really like to know about is if there are any implementations that have gone wrong and gotten news coverage/reporting as unfortunately people usually have to die before change happens.... If you all know of anything, let me know.
I haven't researched if we are loaned, rent or purchased the APX4500 in all our trucks. As mentioned earlier, I have a bit of a vision in mind and limited political capital to spend, so little projects, one at a time, with a roadmap to something better is how I'm approaching this right now. Replacing the Hytera and Moto radios in the trucks for one unit would be lovely, but we only have one truck coming up for replacement right now and I'm only going to focus on that truck for any kind of single device integration. It will likely have pump in compartment, so I'm hoping to get a second radio head on an NX-5x00 setup or a VM8000.
I'm expecting some interop stuff to be really easy to figure out, and some to be close to impossible because of Ego, but I'm trying to make sure the hardware can support the relationships

It's tough when ego gets in the way. You just have to do your best with what you have.

I know that, and you know that.... but I'm guessing that the radio shop just copied what we had on analog and rolled with it in digital. We only have one frequency pair just for our one department, which isn't the end of the world.... oh wait.... remember when I said that they were using the second slot for a neighboring system?..... yeah..... Not expecting that to end well....
I don't believe it was directly because of the international border, but I'm expecting that the reason it isn't split out as a seperate simplex frequency is because there just isn't one available to purchase if we wanted it.

Hard to say, until you try and license a separate simplex channel. It's just more complicated because there is a requirement to coordinate with the US because RF doesn't stop at the border.

I agree, however, I'm not sure what communications have gone on way back when the switch to digital occurred, but I know that the chief has been told that we should count our lucky stars that our license hasn't been canceled because we are a single department on one frequency pair and that anything to do with changing anything at ISED and the radio vendor are big deals..... I really don't know how to take that but anyways......

Meh. You have a need for LMR. Just because you are a single company, doesn't mean you are lucky to have it.

Changing, or adding an emission isn't a big deal at all. I have a buddy thay took over his departments account.. he was able to easily make changes. NBD.

Indeed, and that isn't in existance right now..... so trying to work that into the vision as well as the more basic things like having radios that work in anything more than a breeze.... Had a vehicle fire yesterday and anyone talking without shielding their mic was completely garbled by the wind, which was firm but nothing to write home about.

Oh man, moder AGC, DSP and active noise canceling is amazing. It really is. Especially what Motorola has developed in this field specific to the fire service, and the noise they deal with between saws, pumps and all of that. These are not your old analogue radios any more. There is a ton of tech in them, both hardware and software.

I agree and one of the reasons I see them as a good option is because they are trying to price compeditively, and are also making radios that do more than one thing. It is all well and good to make a 800 MHz PS band, but when no one can move till everyone moves.... that's a problem.

It just takes time and money.

In Alberta, is there anyone running DMR or something that isn't P25 or analog in the Public safety sphere? I'm curious what it is like out that way. Canada always seems to be behind the US in adopting the right system for the right purpose.

There are a few departments still using plain old analogue. Some are using DMR, mostly Motorola DMR. I was just talking about this very topic tonight with a friend. It's taken almost a decade, but the majority of public safety departments are now using the provincial L3 Harris VHF/700MHz VIDA trunk system.

It's somewhere close to 345 individual radio sites. It's has its issues, not with the technology though. More with the people that are responsible for operation of the system and certain decisions made before the network was even built.

It is the largest system in North America for km² coverage and the largest site count. While technically it's 2 systems(2 unique system ID's) it really functions as a single system.

There are lots of mutual aid talk groups at the municipal/city/county/MD levels and a set of 16 province wide mutual aid channels. There are also 5 simplex channels all users have access to as well. Recently there were encrypted mutual aid talkgroups added for law enforcement use only.

Unfortunately, there is little guidance on use of interop talkgroups, there are no radio template minimums, and talkgroup naming was an after thought. There is no minimum radio feature requirements established either.

The radio dealers are generally not very competent with P25 trunking or programming the subscribers.

There are subscribers from L3 Harris, Motorola, Tait, Kenwood, EFJohnson(Kenwood) and Bendix King actively in use.

RCMP and Municipal police services are all full time, strapped encrypted. It is also used by some by-law and municipal enforcement(peace officers that do not carry fire arms).

Our provincial EMS are also encrypted, but have unencrypted mutual aid talk groups to interop with fire departments that also do medical co-response.

The only algorithm officially permitted is AES256.

While it has had growing pains, it is working well for the most part, and has freed up a ton of VHF spectrum here. There isn't a whole lot of public safety left to listen to with out a P25 Phase 1 scanner.

 

[ve2hkw]

While it has had growing pains, it is working well for the most part, and has freed up a ton of VHF spectrum here. There isn't a whole lot of public safety left to listen to with out a P25 Phase 1 scanner.

Yeah... you should lookup the RENIR system and see why there isn't any VHF to be had anywhere in the province..... Every radio tech I've ever spoken to starts shaking just a little bit when you say the word RENIR.... It's really great at being really inefficient..... Oh wait... that's just Quebec in general lol.

RENIR - Reseau National Integre de Radiocommunication Trunking System, Provincewide, Quebec

The radio shops that I have communicated with thus far all do agree that getting any kind of VHF channel allotment is impossible here largely because of RENIR... Basically if a frequency pair comes free in an area, the RENIR system reserves it for themselves.