Grounding antenna?

[Gumball928]

A different question, from a very inexperienced person.

I understand the "grounding for lightning", but is there any other reason to ground the antenna mast ?
Does that effect reception ??

.

 

[mmckenna]

A different question, from a very inexperienced person.

I understand the "grounding for lightning", but is there any other reason to ground the antenna mast ?
Does that effect reception ??

.

Usually not. A base antenna would be designed to work separate from the tower/mast. If it was a tower used for AM radio or Shortwave, then the tower itself is the tuned element that radiates RF in many cases, and that tuning involves having the base either isolated from ground, or directly connected to ground/groundplane. If the tower base is isolated from ground, there's usually a spark gap device there to bleed of excess energy. But hams/hobbyists rarely run towers like that.

Reasons for grounding:
Lightning, as you noted. It's not -just- direct strikes, even a nearby strike can induce energy into the metal enough to cause issues. Static electricity from them sticking up in the wind.
Safety, you want big metal things around other energized things to be well grounded for safety reasons.

You could probably make some really good arguments about reducing electrolysis in the mounting bolts at the base.

 

[Gumball928]

Is that the same for a scanner only antenna ??

 

[mmckenna]

Is that the same for a scanner only antenna ??

Yes.

Also, if you are the type to want to follow the National Electric Code, it is required. NEC is usually written with safety in mind.

 

[paulears]

Scanners or transmitters both need as much signal as possible. Many antennas sold for scanners are just bits of metal in the sky. Proper antennas that are efficient, usually have resonance at certain frequencies where they work best. At these frequencies any radio will give the best results. I have a feeling so called scanner antennas with extra bits of metal are often Barnum devices.

 

[dopeNL]

well wow. I am also very confused about grounding here...
In the UK I never ground my set up and was fine for many many years.
However not sure about the "RULES" in the Neatherlnads as they are pretty poor on H&S and very fairly have grounds in most power points in the house and workplace, (2 Pin Plugs) IN fact the only points in our house that are grponded are in the Kitchin and the ones I made in the studio...
However I was looking at using iter a (See below) and I presume these won't require Groundin at all??
Any advise is welcome. Cheers Nico

Antron A-99 or​

ProComm PT-99 Proton Fiberglass
​

 

[paulears]

We have had grounding as a huge topic in the UK regs for a very long time. The EU meant harmonisation and grounding is a feature of the Dutch, Belgian, German and French systems for years. The shucko connector is found in more recent builds, but lots of Holland has electrics dating back to before grounding was common. The rules seem to be that this is still OK, but new outlets and new builds MUST have all outlets grounded. The old 2 pin, no ground europlugs fit the modern sockets (without grounding)

I suppose if you do not have to comply with a rule forcing you to have grounded outlets, then you have a choice. A bit like Dirty Harry - do you feel lucky?

The thing with adding grounds is that they become the primary paths for escaping current, so a tiny little cable will perhaps reduce static and noise, but be dangerous with real fault current, possibly leaving all your radio gear live. Grounding needs proper planning or can even be more dangerous than not grounding. It depends on what you have and what you are doing.

 

[mmckenna]

However I was looking at using iter a (See below) and I presume these won't require Groundin at all??
Any advise is welcome. Cheers Nico

Antron A-99 or​

ProComm PT-99 Proton Fiberglass​

​

There's a difference between ground plane and a safety/lightning ground.

The antennas do not require a ground plane.
In the United States, the National Electric code would require the support mast, coax shield and lightning protection device to be properly grounded.


A lot of hobbyists don't ground per code, and most suffer no ill effects.
But it is important to fully comprehend the difference between luck and skill. Luck works until it doesn't. A lightning strike can cause a lot of damage. Even a nearby lightning strike that does not contact your antenna system can result in enough energy getting induced onto the antenna, feed line and mast to do damage and cause injuries.

 

[dopeNL]

Ok thanks for the information and advise.
However I am still not sure an actual Ground (safety ground) Not a ground plane.
Is this totally necessary, I have to say in Holland 🇳🇱 there are not many thunderstorms or lightning, I think I could count them on one hand in the past 16 years of living here.

My question is do such antennas trully need this grounding point. As they state they are designed not to be conductive, Yes perhaps the pole / mast that it mounts to may require if used. I plan on using a long PVC Pipe attached to the wall outside and the A99 will be about 10 Meters High in total.
So surely it will be fine?

I use to use a 17 ft mast in the UK 🇬🇧 gps 17, And never had any such lightning or grounding problems.

I would like to think buying a non- metalic lighting free fiberglass rod/ Arial would be fine?
Thank you for your advice and insights

 

[mmckenna]

My question is do such antennas trully need this grounding point. As they state they are designed not to be conductive, Yes perhaps the pole / mast that it mounts to may require if used.

The antenna is absolutely conductive. The thin layer of fiberglass is not going to stop a bolt of lightning that has traveled thousands of feet through the air.

They are DC grounded antennas, which means there is a connection from the radiating element to the metal mast attachment point/coax shield. Again, that won't magically prevent issues from direct or indirect lightning, it will just give another path to ground if the mast/coax shield is grounded.

The Walcott radio page for the A-99 said something about lightning suppressor not required, which isn't accurate for the U.S. National Electric Code. It's actually B.S. and irresponsible:

Solarcon Antron A-99 CB Radio Home Base Station Antenna

Check out this Solarcon A99 at www.WalcottRadio.com

www.walcottradio.com

So surely it will be fine?

No, not surely. PVC pipe isn't going to protect anything. The energy will find its way to ground one way or another. Without a ground/grounded mast, it's going to find a path through your coax cable and through your radio.

I use to use a 17 ft mast in the UK 🇬🇧 gps 17, And never had any such lightning or grounding problems.

Never HAD a problem does not mean you never WILL have a problem. Again, luck does not equal skill. You may go your whole life without issues, or your luck may run out tomorrow.

I would like to think buying a non- metalic lighting free fiberglass rod/ Arial would be fine?

No. Lightning travels thousands of feet through the air.
A thin layer of fiberglass is not going to protect your antenna.
A piece of PVC pipe is not going to protect your home.
The thin insulation on the coaxial cable is not going to protect your home.

Your antenna, your radio, your home, your choice.
But I'm not going to tell you its safe or OK. I personally think it is very irresponsible to ignore safety requirements like this.

 

[TrainsOfThought]

I'm in the process of re-establishing a new scanner radio bank and antenna farm after 23 years. Everything came to a screeching halt re grounding the system (or what extent) to our 1952 house. While antennas are relatively close to the electric panel grounding/water supply pipe, coax destination at the home office radios is at the far end/side of the house making connection to the house ground system problematic. Antenna grounding is a given but beyond that? I have an electrician visiting to upgrade a corrosive and antiquated electric panel/ground wire(s) connection to our water supply pipe (another thread Basement grounding prep; old wire and pipe cleanup) . Beyond that...

This youtube video and the accompanying PDF basically sets me back to the 1990's setup....antenna grounding to the metal water pipe. Minimal coax/radio grounding since our old Direct TV, telephone etc contractors also only grounded their equipment systems to the common house ground/water pipe....nothing for the separate devices on the user end. Residential electricians, for my old house, told me additional ground rods are NOT NEEDED or warranted UNLESS the water pipe was corroded, pipe needed trench replacement (with newer contemporary PVC pipe) therefore requiring the contemporary grounding rod system in lieu of the older water pipe system. I came to the conclusion that the ground rod house grounding requirement came to pass due to upgrades and changes in home construction eliminating the metal "earth" pipe connection. Got an old house with metal water pipes...that's all you need since it is before the PVC pipe era requiring the rod system. Newer homes w/PVC plumbing = ground rod system. Older homes with metal water supply pipes = continue with that as the house electric panel ground "earth" connection.

All the fancy grounding in the world will not save you from a direct "act of God" lightening strike.

Will we ever be able to dispel the myths?
Steve Katz, WB2WIK/6

https://hamradiofornontechies.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/STATION-GROUNDING.pdf

 

[mmckenna]

All the fancy grounding in the world will not save you from a direct "act of God" lightening strike.

Broadcast and large LMR sites take direct hits and stay on the air.

The challenge isn't the grounding, it's the cost. Most hobbyists cannot spend the kind of money to make a survivable system.

And they shouldn't.

What they should be doing is following the NEC requirements for safety:

https://www.mikeholt.com/instructor2/img/product/pdf/17LED-1498-sample.pdf

 

[dopeNL]

I'm in the process of re-establishing a new scanner radio bank and antenna farm after 23 years. Everything came to a screeching halt re grounding the system (or what extent) to our 1952 house. While antennas are relatively close to the electric panel grounding/water supply pipe, coax destination at the home office radios is at the far end/side of the house making connection to the house ground system problematic. Antenna grounding is a given but beyond that? I have an electrician visiting to upgrade a corrosive and antiquated electric panel/ground wire(s) connection to our water supply pipe (another thread Basement grounding prep; old wire and pipe cleanup) . Beyond that...

This youtube video and the accompanying PDF basically sets me back to the 1990's setup....antenna grounding to the metal water pipe. Minimal coax/radio grounding since our old Direct TV, telephone etc contractors also only grounded their equipment systems to the common house ground/water pipe....nothing for the separate devices on the user end. Residential electricians, for my old house, told me additional ground rods are NOT NEEDED or warranted UNLESS the water pipe was corroded, pipe needed trench replacement (with newer contemporary PVC pipe) therefore requiring the contemporary grounding rod system in lieu of the older water pipe system. I came to the conclusion that the ground rod house grounding requirement came to pass due to upgrades and changes in home construction eliminating the metal "earth" pipe connection. Got an old house with metal water pipes...that's all you need since it is before the PVC pipe era requiring the rod system. Newer homes w/PVC plumbing = ground rod system. Older homes with metal water supply pipes = continue with that as the house electric panel ground "earth" connection.

All the fancy grounding in the world will not save you from a direct "act of God" lightening strike.

Will we ever be able to dispel the myths?
Steve Katz, WB2WIK/6

https://hamradiofornontechies.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/STATION-GROUNDING.pdf

Wow Lots of nice information and asvice🇳.
Somehow Im getting lots of warnigngs about Being stuck in a thunder storm, and nothing but the grace of god will help in that scenario.
However thinking again Im gonna go with a Sirio Thunder, as a temporary instal, as I just wanted to get back into CB radio.
Also with such an amount of work involved in the safety side of a Lightning ⚡️ strike is very new to me, and a little off putting.
To the point of simply putting the CB in the dame car 🚗 or out in the shed.
Where the house wont be anymore effected buy such lightning, ant more than it would if it happens to pass over here.
I think there is quite a lot less likely hood of such an occurrence here in The neatherlands, than perhaps in the US, as like I mentioned we don’t really have so mich of this type if wather here..
So until the poles shift or holland 🇳🇱 get blone over to that part of the world (USA) and the regulations here are far less strict here in the NEV rules.

I do thank you for your intellectual experience and advice, and for your time.

I shall stop 🛑 with the worry and we shall see…
I will take precautions naturally, including un-plugging the anttane and power in the event of a storm, and only plug them in when and if I use them.

There have been decades of people using aAntanne type devices over my years in this world, Including old-school TV arials that covered the rooftops back in the day, london city where I grow up was full of them, Not to mention the thousands of CB arials in the 80’s and early 90’s No houses I ever known has been stuck to this day.
There are thousands of satalight dishes around here alongside Healium collection arials, All of whch dont apply or use a ground to earth, other than the power supply they are plugged into.

So again I take you advice into nest.

Thank you all 🙏

 

[dopeNL]

Also on a side note...
With all this urgency on using an earthing system for grounding your systems.
out of ALL the CB radio shops I go to not 1! NOT ANY such thing exists to buy as a set of some kind...
Nothing, Nada, Nix......
So, I ponder the question, if this is so relevant, how come no one sells this on there CB-Shop Website?
At the very most I found one, selling a grounding stick/point @35cm! lol and noting else.......

So why is this? If it is such a relevant and important part of any homebase set-up?

Just why??
Cheers Nico

 

[mmckenna]

So why is this? If it is such a relevant and important part of any homebase set-up?

Because CB is usually marketed to consumers or hobbyists that don't have a lot of technical background. The average CB'er wants 3 things:

Cheap
Easy
Fast

Proper grounding isn't necessarily cheap, easy or fast. The people that market CB radio equipment know that, and the last thing they want to do is confuse a non-technical person with confusing details. They really want the average CB buyer to think it's all a 'plug-n-play' thing that you order off Amazon and get on the air.

Just read through some of the posts above you from people that don't understand grounding either. Just because someone doesn't understand something doesn't mean it's not important.

Ignorance may be bliss, but it can also be dangerous.

 

[TrainsOfThought]

My electrician came yesterday to evaluate the corroded home panel ground/water pipe connection. He agreed that the old connection was problematic and unservicable so, despite tugging and prodding (screw snapped off vs turning...) he snapped the ground wire off and attached it to a new 2-terminal grounding pipe clamp. Luckily, the pipe nipple had room for 2 clamps so I have plenty of terminals for the new 2 antennas without using a split bolt connect to the old wire. I could have performed this BUT personal experience has shown that in old homes something peculiar is always lurking around every corner to complicate the simplest repair so some things I consult a professional. Better that old pipe start leaking with him tugging at it then me LOL

We had a nice, educational and succinct "on the clock" discussion re the issue of grounding vs bonding ("these are often confused and poorly understood") and house system grounding methods: to water pipe, to rebar to a new foundation/concrete slab, to ground rods...this issue is in no way cut n dried as he said often every situation is different re which method or combinations to use. The goal is to have the same level of potential electrical energy throughout the system(s).

He indicated that the old satellite dish coax ground block/splitter ties the entire system (dish and TV's) to the panel through the green ground wire...same one (among others telephone and another unknown system ...possible old cable tv) running along the basement ceiling down to the basement at the panel. Unfortunately, we never got to grounding radios as he was running late but the direction we were going seemed to indicate that grounding the radio end would help close the house system loop maintaining the same level of potential electrical energy and drain off static.

One thing I hadn't realized is that the majority of the electrical outlets in the 1952 circa house, including the home office outlets scanner radios will be plugged are NOT grounded 3 prong outlets but old 2 prong UNgrounded (bathrooms, kitchen, one outlet in several rooms, unfinished basement, detached garage/workshop and Observatory HAS grounded 3 prong as well as outside exterior GFI outlets). This shocking partial electrical obsolescence leads me to believe that ANY spurious electrical energy coming down the coax into the home office finds a total dead end and has no house system grounding to help equalize surges and spikes...and has me reconsidering the decision NOT to ground things coax radio-wise but DO sink a ground rod of sorts AND extend into the basement over to the panel/pipe grounding. We had ceiling fans installed in several rooms years ago and just realized one 3 prong grounded outlet was added to each room tying into the house electrics. Our old 90's city rowhouse despite it's age HAD a grounded electrical system and outlets; no so over here in the sticks. It also adds a new project to the List for exploring upgrading remaining areas of the house. Fascinating and interesting stuff PLUS we finally found a go-to electrician.

 

[mmckenna]

Sounds like you made a good investment.

I spent a few years in a 1940's era house with no grounding. At some point someone added a GFI outlet to the bathroom and had grounded the outlet to a cast iron waste vent pipe. "who needs code when you have pure, dumb luck on your side".

 

[TrainsOfThought]

It might also have something to do with, over recent years, several multi 3-prong outlet office surge protectors (plugged into old 2-prong outlets) suddenly "dying"...seemingly all of a sudden burned out.

 

[prcguy]

My electrician came yesterday to evaluate the corroded home panel ground/water pipe connection. He agreed that the old connection was problematic and unservicable so, despite tugging and prodding (screw snapped off vs turning...) he snapped the ground wire off and attached it to a new 2-terminal grounding pipe clamp. Luckily, the pipe nipple had room for 2 clamps so I have plenty of terminals for the new 2 antennas without using a split bolt connect to the old wire. I could have performed this BUT personal experience has shown that in old homes something peculiar is always lurking around every corner to complicate the simplest repair so some things I consult a professional. Better that old pipe start leaking with him tugging at it then me LOL

We had a nice, educational and succinct "on the clock" discussion re the issue of grounding vs bonding ("these are often confused and poorly understood") and house system grounding methods: to water pipe, to rebar to a new foundation/concrete slab, to ground rods...this issue is in no way cut n dried as he said often every situation is different re which method or combinations to use. The goal is to have the same level of potential electrical energy throughout the system(s).

He indicated that the old satellite dish coax ground block/splitter ties the entire system (dish and TV's) to the panel through the green ground wire...same one (among others telephone and another unknown system ...possible old cable tv) running along the basement ceiling down to the basement at the panel. Unfortunately, we never got to grounding radios as he was running late but the direction we were going seemed to indicate that grounding the radio end would help close the house system loop maintaining the same level of potential electrical energy and drain off static.

One thing I hadn't realized is that the majority of the electrical outlets in the 1952 circa house, including the home office outlets scanner radios will be plugged are NOT grounded 3 prong outlets but old 2 prong UNgrounded (bathrooms, kitchen, unfinished basement, detached garage/workshop and Observatory HAS grounded 3 prong as well as outside exterior GFI outlets). This shocking partial electrical obsolescence leads me to believe that ANY spurious electrical energy coming down the coax into the home office finds a total dead end and has no house system grounding to help equalize surges and spikes...and has me reconsidering the decision NOT to ground things coax radio-wise but DO sink a ground rod of sorts AND extend into the basement over to the panel/pipe grounding. Our old 90's city rowhouse despite it's age HAD a grounded electrical system and outlets; no so over here in the sticks. It also adds a new project to the List for exploring upgrading remaining areas of the house. Fascinating and interesting stuff PLUS we finally found a go-to electrician.

If you look inside most modern AC entry panel/circuit breaker boxes you will see two 120V cables with a common neutral entering the box for single phase 220. The external ground from a ground rod or water pipe is connected at some point to the neutral supplied from the power company, so even older outlets with only hot and neutral have a direct connection to earth ground at the AC entry panel.

I just ran across this in a 100yr old cabin where many outlets were 2 prong with a mix of 3 prong. Some of the 3 prong outlets were fed with 2 wires in metallic conduit and the conduit is hard grounded to the AC entry panel which is common to the power company neutral and the water pipe ground at this location.

Although this is not legal I just replaced all the 2 prong outlets with 3 prong, jumpering the neutral to ground inside each outlet box. This provides a ground path via the already grounded neutral wire for the third ground prong in my new outlets. The proper way to do this would be to pull another wire for the ground at each outlet but that was impossible without cutting walls and rewiring the entire cabin. My particular AC entry panel does not have separate neutral and ground blocks, so it will stay this way until a future owner decides to rewire the entire cabin.

 

[paulears]

I suppose it really boils down to the antenna designs doesn't it? A folded dipole does not need grounding as it's balanced and if the design does not require the coax screen to be bonded to the mast, then it 'floats'. Half-wave designs have the antenna inside the tube isolated from ground, and they are like dipoles - floating. The other popular ones have the ground and coax attached to the metal boss at the bottom and this on a pro tower, would be bonded to the tower via the bolts, so the main ground path - the lowest resistance path - would be the tower metalwork. The coax would be grounded at the equipment - and in the pro tower rules often quite prescriptive, they would be a requirement for an ionising ground device that would allow excess voltages to be shunted to ground, hopefully protecting the equipment. For amateur uses, there's no rule to say you must follow these kinds of practices, but if they're good for pro radio, why not?