Ham radio vs. Medical Equipment and HOA

[mmckenna]

The likelihood is small that his radio is causing a device like that to fail. Unless there is scientific testing, it is possible this HOA will ban all ham operations and other HOA's will use this "event" as an excuse.

I agree, but while small, it's not zero. We know hams like to modify equipment and will usually claim there is zero risk from doing it, "and even if there was, how would they catch me?"

And relying on a self proclaimed 'consultant' may not be the best choice. I think before anything -really- happened with this, there'd be some professional follow up. Hopefully the insulin pump manufacturer would take this seriously. After all, it's their product, and blaming someone else for a possible fault may not hold up in court. Especially if it's as serious and life threatening as the victim claims it is.

So much we don't know….

 

[mmckenna]

Going to assume the transmission gear selection was electronic shift by wire. I guess this is what happens when we eliminate cables from transmission gear selection, they better be darn certain that and electronic throttle bodies are shielded to the extreme

Meanwhile, there's tons of Ford, Chevy and Dodge vehicles with 100 watt low band radios in them running all around without issue. In fact, most manufacturers will test for this, and have installation guides.

 

[chrismol1]

Yup, funny how it was a Toyota delivery van. Hmmm seems it isn't their first rodeo with unintended acceleration DOH!

 

[citiot]

There's more to the story. 1:08 into the video, the woman is about 2.5 feet from her smart phone (on table) while pump is in her pocket. She's also Karening about the new bylaw.

I'm just picturing having signs at a 300 foot radius stating all two-way radios must be shut off... like police radios, fire trucks, medical, etc....

If the ham were smart, he'd get the ARRL involved with volunteer council and PE.

I had a situation in the past... skipping the details about the insane drunken shew next door.... ARRL helped me with professional help. So glad I did. Casually at 200+ DXCC countries with no worry about police showing up....

Edit: This is a link to the the engineering firm (it is on the top of the paper report in news story)

 

[mmckenna]

There's more to the story. 1:08 into the video, the woman is about 2.5 feet from her smart phone (on table) while pump is in her pocket.

Unless there was specifically a major issue with the smart phone and/or the pump, I'd suspect you'd see others having the same issue. Smart phones are pretty common.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

I agree, but while small, it's not zero. We know hams like to modify equipment and will usually claim there is zero risk from doing it, "and even if there was, how would they catch me?"

And relying on a self proclaimed 'consultant' may not be the best choice. I think before anything -really- happened with this, there'd be some professional follow up. Hopefully the insulin pump manufacturer would take this seriously. After all, it's their product, and blaming someone else for a possible fault may not hold up in court. Especially if it's as serious and life threatening as the victim claims it is.

So much we don't know….

Unless the ham is running grossly illegal power levels there is no "modification" he could do to his equipment to cause her device to malfunction. True it may be susceptible to some level of HF, however the consultant needs to prove this with science, not provide conjecture. I hope the ARRL is smart enough to get the manufacturer to fix this problem or determine there is no problem. There are millions of diabetic medical devices out there, built to a low price point.

I changed my blood pressure meds two months ago. At same time my neighbor stopped mowing his back lot letting the weeds go wild. My BP is now out of control. Which should I blame?

 

[mmckenna]

I changed my blood pressure meds two months ago. At same time my neighbor stopped mowing his back lot letting the weeds go wild. My BP is now out of control. Which should I blame?

It's obviously the fault of the fertilizer manufacturer.

No, I agree with what you are saying, it's highly unlikely it's the ham, but I also doubt it's the cell phone. You gotta think that probably 99% of the insulin pump users have a cell phone within a few feet of them at some point.

I wonder who engaged the consultant, and what they were paid for? Were they paid to find the issue, or paid to come up with a list of possible culprits. Big difference.
The right way for this to be handled would be the pump manufacturer to take it seriously. Trade out the pump at minimum, see if it's a manufacturing fault. I think the burden, at this point, is on the pump maker.

But I also think it would be premature to rule out the ham radio operator. Since the article didn't say if the issue had resolved after he pulled the plug, it's all guessing.

 

[chrismol1]

I changed my blood pressure meds two months ago. At same time my neighbor stopped mowing his back lot letting the weeds go wild. My BP is now out of control. Which should I blame?

If this is for real, you wouldn't happen to have allergies and taking decongestants would you? They can cause a rise in bp

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

If this is for real, you wouldn't happen to have allergies and taking decongestants would you? They can cause a rise in bp

Good point. It could be. But I did change BP families because of tinnitus, and I don't think I am responding well.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

Meanwhile, there's tons of Ford, Chevy and Dodge vehicles with 100 watt low band radios in them running all around without issue. In fact, most manufacturers will test for this, and have installation guides.

I had a Ford Taurus back in the 90's. I noticed that while I had cruise control engaged, a 5 watt UHF portable near the steering wheel and dashboard would cause the accelerator to speed up. There were buttons on the steering wheel to control the cruise control. I suspect there were ESD diodes clamping the control line when I would transmit.

 

[Omega-TI]

One of my favorite news stories happened in the 1990's in Rainier, Oregon. A woman complained multiple times that a local Ham was causing havoc with her cable TV. After numerous complaints, the local cable provider filed an FCC complaint ticket against the Ham. Someone came out to inspect the Amateur Radio Operators equipment and found he was in total compliance... BUT, upon further investigation they found the cable providers system was 'leaky', thus a possible to danger to aircraft navigational frequencies. Over a million dollars later to upgrade their system, the cable provider put a notice on their local informational channel saying that if you have interference issues on a certain channel, there is nothing they can do about it. Be careful blaming everything on the Ham, it might backfire!

 

[vagrant]

Oh wow, I just remembered something that happened decades ago while using a CB and an amplifier and other stuff more recently:
1. Waiting on a friend outside his house who was taking too long. I saw him on his cordless phone and keyed the radio. <click> He came out to tell me he'll be another minute and was dialing again <click>.
2. I just exited a liquor store and started the car and keyed the radio. BRRIIINNNGGG! The older style alarm bell external security box started wailing away on the closed jewelry store I was parked in front of. I got the hell out of there. Weeks later I happen to be driving by and was curious. I keyed the radio and sure enough BRRIIINNNGGG!
3. A friend was talking on a payphone ( yeah, that long ago ). After he finished he got in the car and told me he could hear me when I talked.
4. I was over at a friends house and my laptop WiFi kept disconnecting from his router. It always worked fine at my place. After 5 minutes of trying things and still having the problem, he walked over to his microwave and turned it off to check on what he was cooking. I started laughing and explained to him what was going on. I then had him hold a sheet of tinfoil in front of the microwave window and no problems.

I wonder if she has a microwave oven.

 

[chrismol1]

One of my favorite news stories happened in the 1990's in Rainier, Oregon. A woman complained multiple times that a local Ham was causing havoc with her cable TV. After numerous complaints, the local cable provider filed an FCC complaint ticket against the Ham. Someone came out to inspect the Amateur Radio Operators equipment and found he was in total compliance... BUT, upon further investigation they found the cable providers system was 'leaky', thus a possible to danger to aircraft navigational frequencies. Over a million dollars later to upgrade their system, the cable provider put a notice on their local informational channel saying that if you have interference issues on a certain channel, there is nothing they can do about it. Be careful blaming everything on the Ham, it might backfire!

Oh yea, back in the day I'd routinely hear TV audio on 130-136 on the air band at my grandparents house, my house

As well I had a base CB no amp but, routinely bled over the landline phone and TV

 

[Ghstwolf62]

One of my favorite news stories happened in the 1990's in Rainier, Oregon. A woman complained multiple times that a local Ham was causing havoc with her cable TV. After numerous complaints, the local cable provider filed an FCC complaint ticket against the Ham. Someone came out to inspect the Amateur Radio Operators equipment and found he was in total compliance... BUT, upon further investigation they found the cable providers system was 'leaky', thus a possible to danger to aircraft navigational frequencies. Over a million dollars later to upgrade their system, the cable provider put a notice on their local informational channel saying that if you have interference issues on a certain channel, there is nothing they can do about it. Be careful blaming everything on the Ham, it might backfire!

Believe it or not about 5 or 6 months ago 3 cable guys who provide cable, phone and internet out here showed up at my door saying a new neighbor who had moved in complained my antenna was interfering with her phone service. It was clear they expected me to remove my offending antenna. I just looked at them and informed them that I was an amateur radio operator with a valid FCC license so...

Then I explained the big antenna they were complaining about was actually an ST2 scantenna hooked up to several scanners which means there was no transmissions going from it at all. Receive only. As to my other antennas they were on transceivers I was licensed to operate and were RX only unless I was actually transmitting.

It was then they realized I had more than one antenna.

Anyway they left and came back around 2 hours later to tell me they'd found the problem. One of their transmission lines for the phone had cracks in it causing it to "Leak" thereby messing up the signal to people's houses.

The funny thing was my service including phone was with the same company.

 

[letarotor]

Do you fight it or do you comply? If the amateur radio operator is running his station in full compliance with FCC rules, including the RF exposure limits, then he could stand his ground. But, that would cast all of amateur radio in a bad light.

I wonder if the insulin pump has an FCC ID number as it should have equipment authorization as a Part 15 device. I wonder if this engineer considered other sources of interference. I wonder what bands and modes the amateur radio operator was using. I wonder if this engineer consulted the insulin pump manufacturer to find out how they tested their equipment for resistance to electro-magnetic energy.

These were my thoughts exactly when I saw this yesterday morning in my Google News feed. It sounds like they're just assuming it has to be the ham radio operator interfering. I'm a diabetic and I don't use an insulin pump but I highly doubt they're going to be using any amateur radio band frequencies for that pump. I can almost guarantee you from the GCM, aka a blood sugar glucose monitor, that I have on my body this story is probably a very inaccurate assumption on the part of the woman with the insulin pump. If anything wireless is used on that pump, it's likely going to be in the Bluetooth range of frequencies or possibly some Wi-Fi frequencies. I can't say with certainty that there's not some 1GHz + spectrum band that amateurs might use that wouldn't be close. But even that I highly, highly doubt.

I think that if anybody should be criticized or attacked in this story, it should be the company making the pump if in fact there is a problem with amateur radio equipment interfering with it. It almost sounded like the article was even trying to imply the antenna used was possibly part of the cause for her issues. I think the ham radio operator should stand his ground and fight it after determining that it is definitely not a result of anything he's doing / using. And I really don't think it will be his fault at all. But even if it is, then it shouldn't be him penalized and it should be the manufacturer of the pump.

There wasn't a shred of evidence indicating he was causing the diabetic woman any issues. And yet the story implied in the way it was written that the ham radio operator was the party causing the problem. They didn't say he was but the way the article was written, very poorly, made it sound like the amateur operator was the likely cause of the interference. You could tell that whoever wrote the story had no concept of frequencies, bands, or even FCC laws or the topic they were writing about. It's aggravating to see these kinds of stories that are most likely so wrong and they're written by incompetent people who don't understand the issues they're having to write about.

I am legally blind and I'm having to use Google Voice to Text to compose this message. I have to get to bed now and I cannot go back and proofread this. I've tried to proofread it using my magnifier as Google was typing what I said. But if I missed anything or didn't see something that should have been corrected, please forgive that incorrect Google typing and understand I can't go back and proofread it right now due to how long it would take. I should have been in bed 2 hours ago at least and I have to be back up in a few hours

Brian
COMMSCAN

 

[kb4mdz]

One of my favorite news stories happened in the 1990's in Rainier, Oregon. A woman complained multiple times that a local Ham was causing havoc with her cable TV. After numerous complaints, the local cable provider filed an FCC complaint ticket against the Ham. Someone came out to inspect the Amateur Radio Operators equipment and found he was in total compliance... BUT, upon further investigation they found the cable providers system was 'leaky', thus a possible to danger to aircraft navigational frequencies. Over a million dollars later to upgrade their system, the cable provider put a notice on their local informational channel saying that if you have interference issues on a certain channel, there is nothing they can do about it. Be careful blaming everything on the Ham, it might backfire!

We had a similar in a little town called Knightdale, NC, maybe 30 or more years ago. Ex-railroad, retired, ham, on a very tiny lot in 'downtown' - and he had a probably 60 - 75 ft. tower with couple different beams. And he absolutely LOVED 6M SSB; held a Sunday AM net, just sweeping his beam around the compass.

Neighbors complained he was getting into the cable system, bad. Cable co called out FCC to inspect; FCC found his station install was top notch, practically perfect. Then they started sniffing the cable system. Leaks. All. Over. The. System. And if there is a leak that lets inside stuff out, it will also let outside stuff in.

Again, know what the eff you're talking about before you blame someone, lest you get your *ss handed to you.

 

[kb4mdz]

OK, a few items:

The report shown on the TV story is from "Sublight Engineering, PLLC" based out of Arlington VA.
The engineer who signed the report is Matt Butcher, who is a registered Professional Engineer.
I found in FCC ULS a KC3WD, Matthew J. Butcher, Advanced class license, living in Arlington VA.
So, I say he's got some chops.

Here's his bio:

Sublight Engineering PLLC - Matt Bio

Matthew J Butcher, PE

www.sublight.net

Yeah, definitely some chops there.

My editorial point:

Notice on the statements shown at 1:57 in the TV story: "It is possible that HF amateur radio operations described herein could create fields that exceed manufacturers limits. The amateur radio operations at VHF and UHF detailed will not produce levels that exceed those indicated limits."

That is a "possible", but not a "definite" as relates to HF operation QRMing.

As to the TV story presentation, style & such: Rod Serling did a Twilight Zone episode where aliens were goofing with the lights in a neighborhood, and one of the suspects was the kid 2 streets over who had a ham radio.

OOOOooh, antennas bad, scary! TRANSMITTING antennas??!?!?! I'm outta my mind with worry! The sky is falling because of them!

Editorial rant off.

 

[AK9R]

First off, let's try to stay on topic of ham radio vs. medical devices. Anecdotal stories about interference to vehicles or cable TV systems are off topic.

A few thoughts while reviewing WFTV 9 story:

The story was done by the station's investigative reporter. Sometimes, these reporters actually uncover a serious problem. Sometimes, they just sensationalize an isolated incident in an effort to help their station's ratings. How did the reporter or producer find out about this issue so they could make a story out of it?

Where is the woman's doctor in all of this? Should he/she have been consulted about this woman's insulin regulation problems?

According to the story, she (the woman) says, "So I switched pumps, bought another one, switched reservoirs, threw insulin away, did everything I knew of to troubleshoot.” Again, is her doctor involved in this? Is her insurance company involved in this? I'm not diabetic, so I don't know how things work with regard to insulin pumps.

The community hired the consultant.

The community told the ham to shut down his equipment.

The ham is using a Yaesu FTdx-1200. That's a 100-watt 160m through 6m transceiver. There's no amplifier visible in the video. Is anyone talking to Yaesu about this? I'm sure that radio has an FCC equipment authorization under Part 15...just like the insulin pump.

Or, am I jumping to a conclusion. Does the pump have an FCC Part 15 equipment authorization?

The ham says “I’ve lost a hobby I’ve enjoyed more than half of my lifetime, and the equipment sitting in my office is not plugged in.” Yet, the B-roll from the story shows the radio powered up and tuned to 3.910 MHz. The S-meter reading is very low, so we can surmise that there's no antenna attached. Assuming that the transmitted signal on 75m interferes with the insulin pump, does a transmitted signal on any other band cause this interference?

What about this consultant? The story says "David Birge [the ham] was told to shut down his ham radio operation after On Top Of The World [the community] hired an independent consultant to investigate Smith’s complaints." What did the consultant investigate? Did he only look at the problem from the woman's side? Did he talk to the insulin pump manufacturer? Did he talk to the ham? Did he talk to the ARRL (since the consultant has an amateur radio license, I assume he knows about the ARRL)? Where are the results of his investigation? Surely, he provided a report in exchange for payment from the community.

The community is in the process of changing the community's rules to allow other hams to put up antennas. This seems inconsistent with the community telling this ham to shut down his equipment. And, it's this issue that is causing all the ruckus. The woman thinks the community is not looking out for her interests and is asking the Florida Commission on Human Relations if the community is doing enough to protect her. As a closet libertarian, I have a real problem with this. Why does she expect the community to protect her and then expect the state to make a determination about the community's actions? If she's not happy with the community, she could move.

The final line of the story says that the community won't comment because of "pending litigation". What litigation? Is the woman suing the community? Is the ham suing the community? Litigation is only mentioned in that one sentence.

So much we don't know….

Nailed it.

 

[laidback]

No speculations:


The Omnipod® Insulin Management System (both the Pod and the Personal Diabetes Manager or PDM) complies with Part 15 of the FCC Rules. Operation is subject to the following two conditions:

1. These devices may not cause harmful interference.
2. These devices must accept any interference received, including interference that may cause undesirable operation.

 

[tweiss3]

I have to agree entirely with the AK9R above. I would also say, in order to make any accurate determination on the effect RF has on the pump, one would have to take the pump she was using, stick it in RF isolation at a lab, and then subject it to the entire spectrum of frequencies that the suspected transceiver is permitted to produce, at varying power levels. I would have a hard time thinking that the "community" would be willing to pay for that depth of study, as it would be extremely expensive for both the community, and the diabetic who would have to give up her pump for an extended period of time.

I would love to read the report in its entirety. I have a feeling that it is being misquoted, which drives engineers crazy. I bet the conclusion is something like "It is possible the amateur radio operator could have produced radio frequency levels that exceeded those Smith’s insulin pump is intended to operate in; however, Smith's insulin pump is certified under Part 15 of the FCC rules and must accept any interference received, including interference that may cause undesirable operation" or "It is possible the amateur radio operator could have produced radio frequency levels that exceeded those Smith’s insulin pump is intended to operate in; however, further laboratory testing not included in this evaluation is required to make any determination of radio frequency effect on the insulin pump".

I would hope this operator has completed his RF exposure evaluation calculations and has documented it properly. Its going to be the first thing the FCC wants to see.