Harassment for photography: not just for railfans

[radio10-8]

Almost forgot... Stay away from AREA 51 the "camo dudes" mean serious business. Remember "What happens in Vegas stays in Vega$" There's alot of desert out there. I have spoken with 3 guys that made trek out there to listen to and photograph "Red star or Red square games?" They were out near Nellis AFB camping in federal area. A spotter plane saw the tents and portable antennas they set-up. It circled them 5 times. 45 minutes later a black helicopter flew over twice and 1 hour after that a couple of unmarked dodge trucks pulled up and highly trained military police exitited and had a very informative talk with these guys. They were allowed to leave after they "looked around" their campsite. The security guards advised them that could listen all they wanted and even photograph anything that flew overhead. They never asked for ID. But gave them a warning and drew on their map with red marker where the restricted area starts and told them "Guys we have seen the other side of the restricted area and there's nothing to see. It's not worth it, the ground sensor will pick you up way before you cross the line and that helicopter will return." I saw the pictures and heard some tapes of the recordings. If their website is running i'll post it here.

 

[toydriver_det]

Almost forgot... Stay away from AREA 51 the "camo dudes" mean serious business....

A couple of real good stories. Classifed military bases is not the place to push your rights. That's for sure.
Did TSA ever call you back?
I've never been hassled about my scanner or camera yet. Back in 70 and 71 I did have to take the lens of my 35mm off the camera body for overseas airport screeners at Rome and Athens while I was in the military and in uniform. I was VERY polite.

 

[radio10-8]

Yes, The TSA station supervisor called me and apologized for the incident. She did provide me with some useful information. The TSA screener was on-duty in plain clothes and was enroute to a station that had alot of employees call in sick. Technically he had authority to search my bags and ask for tickets and ID. He was not an "Air Marshal" and he was counseled on telling people he was. His ID and uniform were in his bags in an overhead compartment. He was supposed to be in uniform and wearing an ID around his neck. My story was verified by the flight attendants standing in the back of the plane that overheard everything, they actually called airport police to say someone was claiming to be an air marshall, local cops never showed up while we were on the ground and we took off without incident. I changed seats and moved all the way to the last row of the plane, he was 4 rows in front of me. I kept watching him because of what had occurred. Made a quick flight to Ontario feel alot longer.

 

[kb2vxa]

Hi 10-8 and all,

I saw that on the History Channel too, pretty neat adventure with the "secret airline" out of LV and the cat and mouse game with the peek-a-boo cop behind the chain link fence. The only serious business is with the Air Police who have the authority to shoot first and the dead don't answer questions later. I have no intentions of photographing stealth aircraft often mistaken for UFOs in any case.

"...local cops never showed up while we were on the ground and we took off without incident."
That's WHY they never showed up, the "prime directive" at any airport is keep 'em flying no matter what. A pointless incident would have caused VERY costly delay. I nearly lost my job for reporting a fuel leak to the pilot despite the fact the rules specifically state that anything out of the ordinary must be reported to the appropriate authority. A woman saw a large crack in the fuselage of a passenger jet she was boarding and failed to report it. The result was the bursting of the forward third of the aircraft and an attendant falling to her death. The plane landed safely in Hawaii after a harrowing, near out of control experience, you probably remember the story that made the world news and is featured in TV presentations to this day. Well, Catch 22 centered around aircraft, pilots and authority now didn't it?

Just think, before 9-11 there was little security, now there's maximum security from insecurity which amounts to no security. Ah, how the karmic wheel turns round and round yet carries us nowhere but in circles. The world's going to hell in a handbasket but at least I'm enjoying the ride. Kinda funny, idnit?

 

[DPD1]

I saw that on the History Channel too, pretty neat adventure with the "secret airline" out of LV and the cat and mouse game with the peek-a-boo cop behind the chain link fence.

Unfortunately... Thanks to shows like that, and people who don't know how to control themselves, it's pretty much ruined a good thing out there. In the old days, you could camp out during red flag and be left alone. They pretty much didn't care you were out there, as long as you kept to yourself, and didn't blab to the whole world what you saw or heard. Then all the shows, websites, and people trying to make money from it, turned it into a circus. There's pretty much a nonstop flow of traffic right up to the gates now. I saw a pic some guy took of his buddy the other day... He was wearing full desert cams and posing right in front of the gate. Imagine if you had to deal with knuckle heads like that every day... No wonder they go off on people.

Dave
http://www.DPDProductions.com
- Custom Scanner, MURS, GMRS, & Ham Antennas -

 

[kb2vxa]

Hi D and all,

C'mon, The Li'l Ali Inn and the black mail box along the Extraterrestrial Highway (?) have been around since long before the History Channel produced the show in question. "Roswell" has been a tourist trap ever since the "crash" and there have always been knuckleheads. First, Groome Lake was taken off the map and a couple of decades later the perimiter widened to include those favorite hilltop locations, both before TV "UFO" shows became so popular. What can you expect from the place where the SR-71 and other such aircraft were being tested? Funny, Wright-Pat just outside of Dayton OH played a more important role in that UFO saga AND the Blackbird's development than Nellis ever did and I had no trouble at all getting into the base auditorium to see the Smothers Brothers. (;->)

"Imagine if you had to deal with knuckle heads like that every day."
They make lousy target practice but the heads look cool as Hum-V hood ornaments.

 

[SAR923]

Hi all,

This is a hot topic of late and getting hotter by the day. There sure are two sides to the story (Did you get permission to reproduce it from Kalmbach?) and two sides to every sidebar. Here I only read one but from a law enforcement point of view they had probable cause to detain and question a "suspect" for up to 36 and in some states 48 hours without charging him with a crime. If you have been paying attention to the news industrial sites security is prime cause for concern. IMO his "civil rights" weren't violated on the face of it.

I have no idea what jurisdiction you live in but your information is certainly wrong for California. We can only detain a suspect for 45 minutes without arrest and we need probable cause to do that. Nothing in the news article suggested that the police had any probable cause for an arrest. It sounds like they detained him for a reasonable period of time and then let him go. His lawsuit won't succeed because none of his constitutional rights were violated. It sounds like the officers need a little refresher on what the penal code says about photographing from a public place but it doesn't sound like it was really such a big deal.

 

[kb2vxa]

Hi SAR and all,

Well, if you look in the upper right corner of this post you'll see what jurisdiction I'm in. (;->)

Yup, no probable cause, no arrest, only a short detainment while they sorted it out. The bottom line is like you said, "no big deal" but some especially the media have a nasty habit of making mountains out of mole hills. Speaking of penal codes it might be a good idea to check them out since much has changed since 9-11 and then there are those ambiguous local ordenances. Still it's unwise to argue with a cop when it's more expedient to argue with the Chief with your attorney Geraldo Rivera present. Sorry, Johnny Cochrane is dead but OJ lives.

Pardon the sardonic humor, I just couldn't resist especially since Geraldo is a failed ACLU lawyer and J.C. was a Civil Rights activist and long time friend of the comic Al Sharpton.

 

[rainscanman]

Hell Fire come on down

Hey there my lovies

There is no doubt that if you keep shooting those photos, a drone is going to sneak up and blow you away.

What ever you do, make sure you carry a ACLU card on you.

www.aclu.org

 

[Dorpmuller]

Better safe than sorry, first check in with all law enforcement that may be involved (forget about the plant rent-a-cops) and inform them of where you will be and when and what you intend to do on public property.QUOTE]

My thoughts: Bulls**t!!! Public property?? I have been shooting rail pictures since 1971. I don't do anything stupid like climb on signals, etc. or do anything that would impair operations. I take pictures and only leave footprints.

I am going to shoot what I want, when I want. What is this, the Soviet Union ca. 1960's? When I have to "check in," or go to the police to tell them what I'm doing in my free time, engaged in a recreational activity, that's when I leave the country. This police state stuff really gets me steamed, big time. And NO WAY am I going to wear my ID publicly. That's like the Jews having to wear the yellow stars in Germany, 1939-1945.

With this mindset and national paranoia, the terrorists in Washington have already won-we are rapidly on the way to a full-fledged police state. (Major reason I moved out of N.J.) We really are losing the country and the sheeple do nothing.

If anyone ever tries to confiscate film, my response will be, diplomatically, "go ahead, arrest me." Beyond that, the 5 words: "I have nothing to say." First phone call goes to a lawyer and next to the papers so they can do a nice civil rights story.

The few encounters I've had have been courteous, cordial and professional with me giving out my web address with my shots. However, in the 70's I ran into a Penn Central cop that was a certifiable psychopath. Tried to tell me it was illegal to watch trains. What a fracking nut case. (I used to be a drug counselor and had psych patients with major mental illness a lot more stable than this guy was.)

In my experience city and town cops have been cool, RR cops have had a major chip from the get-go.

9/11 is being abused and used for an excuse. Railfans can be the best eyes and ears the railroads ever had, and L.E. should realize that we're on their side. I keep the emergency numbers for Norfolk Southern in my cellphone and would be the first to use it. I do carry some pics with me so they know I'm legit.

Sorry to rant so much but this stuff really gets me going.

Rich

 

[markinillinois]

The U.S. has gone completely insane over all of the so-called Homeland Security paranoa. I'm a plane, train, river barge enthusiast and I hate being looked at as a criminal because I enjoy those three things.

I've got no respect whatsoever for our useless, worthless and gutless elected officials in Washington, DC since they're most responsible for all of the problems in this country. Our borders have been wide open for years and we've been flooded with millions of illegals entering our country, but that seems to be okay. On the other hand, if you watch a plane or train, you're considered a criminal for doing that.

I don't even go to airshows anymore because of the hassle involved just to get in because you're carrying something.

Mark Holmes
Marion, IL

 

[exeter1]

From what I gather from what some of you are saying, if a guy's photographing an oil refinery at 4:30 in the morning, which lies in the middle of Torrance, California, which lies smack in the middle of a massive population center like Los Angeles and Orange Counties, then the police should worry about hurting that one man's feelings more than they should worry about doing their jobs.

I lived within a mile or three from that refinery for decades, and found the Torrance Police to be extremely aggressive, effective and good! When I was a teenager and my friends and I were looking for somewhere to be up to no good, we always made a point to avoid Torrance, and went to Redondo or Hermosa, where the police were more "thenthative". Torrance Police had a reputation of being extremely unfriendly towards people who were not even necessarily committing crimes, but who'd I'd describe as being up to no good either. I hated them when I was between 17 and 22 years old, and loved them when I was over 30.

I remember the Rodney King trial and the riots afterwards. Torrance had NOTHING! My only inconvenience was that our grocery store closed two hours early one night as a precaution. And outside the Torrance Police station were a couple of dozen citizens cheering them as they entered and exited the facility.

It's my belief that the guy who is suing them for overreaction is the same one who'd sue them for underreaction if events conspired in a different way. I mean, all it sounds like happened is that they weren't friendly to him, and his feelings were hurt. I had the same experience multiple times in the 1970's. This isn't something new!

 

[hulka]

Well if taking pictures is "being up to no good" then they should hassel every reporter out there. "Being up to no good" is a very broad term in my 2 cents. What I see as being up to no good is diffrent from the next guy.

 

[exeter1]

"Being up to no good" is a very broad term in my 2 cents.

Yes, and it's intended that way. Performing "good" deeds is one thing, performing "bad" deeds is another, and the two have a large gap between them. Being "up to no good" is simply somewhere on the bad side of performing good deeds. Not necessarily bad, possibly in the gap somewhere, but possibly bad too, and very unlikely to be good.

There, that should be all cleared up!

In my case as a teenager, when we were up to no good, it was usually that we were looking for a place to go and drink beer. Torrance Police were very aggressive towards that type of activity, and my opinion of them swung full spectrum over the years. When I was 17 they were harrassing me..... hands down! Now that I'm pushing 50 years old I say "go get 'em!!!" Kick some butt! Don't let the bleeding hearts sue you into the position where you're afraid to be aggressive in your job. We need aggressive and confident police who feel like the community will back them up.

If the cops want to give a guy the evil eye at 4:30 in the morning because he's doing something that MIGHT be evil, I will back them up even if their suspicions turn out to be unfounded.

 

[jmp883]

One way to avoid be accosted by law enforcement is to take your pictures at 'accepted' railfan locations. Of course that is no guarantee that you still WON'T be stopped, but it should reduce the chances significantly. Here in the metro NY/NJ area there are many spots that are still railfan-friendly simply because both the railroad and municipal police are used to seeing photographers there on a regular basis. In fact the cop that comes speeding into where you're set up for watching/photographing trains may just be a railfan himself! This happened to us last night where a few of us were waiting for the passage of a freight train working upgrade, slightly overloaded and underpowered. It was too dark for photography but we still waited for the train to pass. All of a sudden a local PD unit comes flying down the road towards our trackside parking lot and bounces into the lot. He stops by us and rolls his window down. His first words to us is to ask us if the train has passed yet. We tell him it hasn't and we all get into a discussion about trains!

If you are stopped by law enforcement all I can say is to be cooperative with them. Working as an emergency services dispatcher for the last 16 years I can tell you that, regardless of how the officer may act, being cooperative on your part will only make it easier for you. Yes, there are officers (and dispatchers) who treat every one, on every call, rudely. What you should remember is that officers, at least in the bigger towns, may go from life-threatening calls to b.s. calls during the course of a shift. Being dispatched to check out people with cameras next to train tracks will make many officers more than a little suspicious of you. I'll bet that call rarely, if ever, was dispatched pre-9/2001.

Unfortunately we're also our own worst enemies. I've seen railfans get in the face of officers, both rude and polite, stating that 'It's my God-given right to photograph trains, where, when, and how I want, and there's nothing you can do about it!'. I have no problem with that if you can show me where in the Bible or Constitution we get that right. My problem with that attitude is the way it gets displayed. Being belligerent will immediately put the officer on the offensive towards you regardless of his disposition when he first pulled up.

Be cooperative and respectful and you'll probably be allowed to continue your hobby. You have every right to obtain the officers name and/or badge number and make a complaint to his supervisor about his conduct. If he won't give that information to you just take the car number down as he pulls away. It's kept on record of what officer is in what car. My department takes officer conduct reports very seriously and I've seen officers taken off the road temporarily, suspended, or even reassigned to non-road jobs.

Railroads are an important part of our nation's infrastructure. Whether we like it or not things have changed since 2001. But, if we cooperate with officers when confronted, report things out of the ordinary to the railroads, use common sense, and otherwise act as responsible railfans things should get better for us. Matching rude officers attitudes and getting in their faces will only make things worse for us, not better.

BTW, I've done quite a bit of trackside fanning and photography since 2001 and have yet to see an officer (except for last night).

 

[Napalm]

Wear a hi-viz waistcoat or jacket?

What terrorist would wear bright flourescent yellow....

 

[W4KRR]

I wonder if the 9-11 terrorists were known to have taken pictures of the World Trade Center prior to 9-11. If so, it certainly didn't seem to set off any alarms with anyone. Why do authorities believe that terrorists would be so open and blatant about such things?

IMO, I don't feel any safer now than prior to 9-11. We're too busy questioning people taking photos out in the open and strip searching 80 year old ladies at the airport. The real terrorists aren't being hampered one bit.

 

[elk2370bruce]

There is a simple solution that I have used successfully. I just went to the rail cop house a couple of days before when I wanted to visit, identified myself with photo ID's, explained what I wanted to do (including a couple of close-up photos of my layout and the real site photo), and nicely asked for permission. I have not been refused in my attempts. Like it or not, mass transit has been a target (ie Madrid, London, et al) of violent acts and domestic threats (yes, right here in the US of A), have been made - most of them have been fallacious or crank calls). Institutional paranoia is the outcome of decades of slack security of our rail system. "Copping" an attitude as to your rights never sits well with blue suits and badges. That is the way to get the reputation that you "do not play nice with others."

 

[cristisphoto]

GOOD GRief!! Grow up ya' all

There is two sides to every story like this. Sometimes the police overreact, sometimes the other person overreacts. This time, it looks like everyone overreacted.:roll:

Well said!!!

It is post 9/11
of course every one is goin to be lon you arse...
A couple of years ago while walking by a federal building these "security guard" pointed at me as caled me a "***got"
soo the next moring i went back anf took a few pics of them (security guards) with my camera phone while walking away Fedarel Protective Services cuffed me and asked me what the heck was I Thinking?
I explained to them that their security guard harrased me, and because they won't give me their names etc
,,I figured in my retarded mind lol
that what the heck. I would photgraph them..
well I was advised of the Patriot Act and that takin pics or video of ANY Federeal persoanell or Fed building is Prohibited...
I apologized. he also aologized to me and got the securty guard,s supervisor
I then filed a complaint and went home..
Point is BE polite....
This is Post 9/11 and everyone is human,,,,,

they had every right to arrest and book me buut
because I was open and honest etc tehy filed NO charges
and Life went on
Anyways ,
I hope the LAwsuit is thrown out
Crista

 

[DaveNF2G]

I was advised of the Patriot Act and that takin pics or video of ANY Federeal persoanell or Fed building is Prohibited

Really? Where is this provision of USA PATRIOT? I'd be interested in reading it and, if that's really what the law says, finding out why nobody has questioned it.