Harassment for photography: not just for railfans

[cristisphoto]

WElll////

Really? Where is this provision of USA PATRIOT? I'd be interested in reading it and, if that's really what the law says, finding out why nobody has questioned it.

When you are different and Poor you learn real hard and Real fast that suing ,your rights,
etc are bull crap:evil:

and I DO NOT like getting beaten up on lol
So I just did what any adult would do
Thaked i still have all my teeth and walked away
Cause YOU WILL NOT WIN WITH THE LAW.
NOt sayin I agree with what happened but like i said when your poor and diffrent then well you, (I)suck LOL
anyways
I'l fight with yuppies and regualr civilians buut
not with guys who roam in packs an pack heat then after they knock your teeth out
they thro in jail where the thugs can have fun as well
THTA REALITY!!!
ANyways,
Ya'all couldn't understand unless you wear my shoes LOL
Crista

 

[kb2vxa]

Hi Dorp and all,

Your avatar says much about you, no wonder you have such an aragant disregard for the law. An Aryan hate symbol and a hateful attitude rather go hand in hand.

Both the NYCTA and NJT have lifted thier photo bans several months ago and many others following so it makes the point kinda moot, doesn't it? BTW, I liked the off topic discussion of Area 51, such contraversey you won't find in a railway yard. (;->)

Oh, the ACLU? LO freakin' L! Now just who do you think Jeraldo worked for before WPIX and Fox? ROTF&LMAO!

 

[Dorpmuller]

Hi Dorp and all,

Your avatar says much about you, no wonder you have such an aragant disregard for the law. An Aryan hate symbol and a hateful attitude rather go hand in hand.

Has nothing to do with hate... but I do hate what is happening to the country.

Rich

 

[RISC777]

Wear a hi-viz waistcoat or jacket?

What terrorist would wear bright flourescent yellow....

Did that, got the PD called on me for being a "suspected thief" breaking and entering...

The cops just laughed, talked to me a minute or two, and drove off. I went back to what I was doing.

 

[RISC777]

I was advised of the Patriot Act and that takin pics or video of ANY Federeal personnel or Fed building is Prohibited.

Really? Where is this provision of USA PATRIOT? I'd be interested in reading it and, if that's really what the law says, finding out why nobody has questioned it.

Same here. I take digital shots of Fed prisons all the time and not once has anyone ever said a thing to me.

 

[kb2vxa]

Hi Rich and all,

Just to state my motive for this post as information only;

"Has nothing to do with hate... but I do hate what is happening to the country."

I'm in full agreement with the latter, it's becoming an odd mix of Communism and Democratic National Socialism (Nazi being the German acronym) and a free-for-all with minority groups dictating policy.

If you think that way about your avatar you know little to nothing about the Aryan Nation or Sun White which happens to be your avatar's file name and apparantly is it's logo. This is not my argument, surely you have received private messages and we'll keep the details private. A public forum is not the place for further discussion.

 

[BigLebowski]

I have been taking photos, not just of trains, but of many subjects for over 8 years now. Before that, I took a limited amount of video, and I have only been approached by Law Enforcement a couple of times. The first was in Reidsville, NC where a police officer warned me not to turn me back on my camera because of the drunks in the area. The second was 2 years ago with a Norfolk Southern Police officer and he was 100% within his rights to stop me since I was not where I was supposed to be. The point being, each time i've been stopped, it hasn't been for photography. Maybe it's just the places i've been.. maybe I don't look suspicious... or maybe because i'm in the public safety field myself.

I often hear stories about Security Guards trying to stop people from doing things on public property, and I am amazed at how many people give in to avoid a confrontation. Personally, I don't care what anyone else has to say unless they are in a patrol vehicle and has lights other than Green or Amber. Security Guards have absolutely ZERO authority off their property, and only very limited authority on it. I have no problem telling a security guard to screw off, regardless of if i'm on their property or not. Interestingly, railroad police officers are NOT just security guards. They have the same authority as regular police, and in the State of North Carolina, they do have the same power as a State Trooper or Deputy sheriff.

Police Officers are another story completely, and it's in your best interest to comply with their orders up to the point that they do not violate your rights. This is the point that many people go wrong. Do some research on exactly what rights you have. Commanding an officer to do things because you feel that it is your "right" is not the way to end an encounter on a good note. If you have a point to make, be sure that everything you say is 100% true, and ask to speak to their shift supervisor. Most officers consult their supervisor anyway when it comes to issues they don't deal with every day.

Finally on the subject of taking photos from an airplane... Federal Regulations require you to comply with ALL instructions or orders given by the personnel on board an aircraft. I would thing that a TSA officer would not have the same authority since he or she is NOT part of the flight crew.

 

[drouse3]

California does this all the time

In California you be put in jail for 48 hours without being charged with a crime. You must be charge with in 48 hours or they must let you go. If they did not have this time frame, the courts would be open seven days a week.
I seen people, including myself, stopped by PD over 45 minutes without being charged. The only time I have heard of a minute rule was when I work in security at a apartment complex. This keep the guards from getting into trouble and getting the company getting sued.

I have no idea what jurisdiction you live in but your information is certainly wrong for California. We can only detain a suspect for 45 minutes without arrest and we need probable cause to do that. Nothing in the news article suggested that the police had any probable cause for an arrest. It sounds like they detained him for a reasonable period of time and then let him go. His lawsuit won't succeed because none of his constitutional rights were violated. It sounds like the officers need a little refresher on what the penal code says about photographing from a public place but it doesn't sound like it was really such a big deal.

 

[kb2vxa]

Hi Drouse and all,

For the sake of clarity the correct phrase is "detained", not "put in jail", there is considerable difference. That difference is one may be detained for questioning and that's done in an interrogation room not in the jail. While not being interrogated the subject is held in a detention cell, again not in jail. It's the same in New Jersey which was my original point. BTW, if pressed to the wall the cops can stuff you in that cell without interrogation just to get you out of thier hair and just try to do anything about it. They'll deny it leaving your argument "without substance, credibility or merit" and you'll hit the "blue wall", splat. In any case regardless of some macho bad advice it's best to heed the Biblical admonition, don't kick against the pricks. (Sharp sticks, prods, goads.)

Personally I have never had a problem with the law while photographing or just watching. Maybe that's because I never placed myself in a dangerous position giving no one reason to call the cops.

 

[weather4ar]

I photograph the UP in Arkansas, I also drive with a scanner, and I've never been bothered once. Why? Because I use common sense and safety rules. I also use public parking lots, roads, and parks next to the tracks without any problems. I also see my trains just as well as if I were on the tracks. It's quite simple. If you break the rules, you pay the price. Stay off the tracks and immediate right of way and you'll have no problems. If you absolutely need the shot, get permission from the Railroad, and then go where they let you. It's their private property, and you're their guest. If you break the rules, you're the trespasser, and you get exactly what you have coming. Do it right, be safe, and don't trespass, or don't do it at all!

 

[DPD1]

It's great that you've had such good luck... and I hope you continue to. But I respectfully disagree... I, and many other people have been hassled for doing absolutely nothing wrong. I once stopped by the local station after work to just sit for a little while. I was amazed to see some lunatic about 100 yards down the track from the station, purposely wait until a train was coming, then jump up and run out in front of it. He did this three times in the half hour I was there. I then noticed a transit cop coming towards me. I assumed one of the crews had reported this nut, and he was on his way to try and get him. Nope... He was on his way to give me a hard time about "loitering" at the station. I didn't even have a camera with me, and when I told him about the nut (who was still standing down there), he couldn't have cared less. I left in disgust. Granted, this is technically trespassing I guess... But it's an indication of how screwed up some people's priorities are.

A friend of mine and two of his friends just spent 4 hours the other night, standing on the roof of a parking garage which is in rock throwing distance to the approach end of a very major airport. The stairs to the garage were not locked, there were no security guards, and nobody ever said a word to them... All of this stuff is pure luck, and in my opinion, usually has nothing to do with logic.

Dave
http://www.dpdproductions.com
- Featuring the TrainTenna Railroad Scanner Antennas -

 

[weather4ar]

Thanks for your response. I can certainly understand your frustration with being confronted by the transit cops. Do the transit cops go overboard sometimes? Sure, but sometimes, the railfan is the one at fault, even if we disagree with the cops. Sometimes, you can prevent confrontations simply by asking for permission to be on the station platform or parking lot. Even if they say no, at the very least, if they know what you're trying to do, they might be able to show you a safe spot very close to where you want to be without the risk of becoming a trespasser. Communication is the key here, rather than luck, IMHO.

 

[DPD1]

Thanks for your response. I can certainly understand your frustration with being confronted by the transit cops. Do the transit cops go overboard sometimes? Sure, but sometimes, the railfan is the one at fault, even if we disagree with the cops. Sometimes, you can prevent confrontations simply by asking for permission to be on the station platform or parking lot. Even if they say no, at the very least, if they know what you're trying to do, they might be able to show you a safe spot very close to where you want to be without the risk of becoming a trespasser. Communication is the key here, rather than luck, IMHO.

I will be the first one to admit, there's definitely some bad apples out there that give everybody a bad rep.

 

[kc2kvz]

I would like to report on an encounter I had the other day with Amtrak Police. To make it short, I was taking photos at a relatively out of the way spot, but with a great view when the Amtrak detective pulled up. He asked me what I was doing and I told him I was taking some photos. So here's what then transpired (in no particular order)
1] He gave me a safety brochure from Operation Lifesaver
2] He wished me luck
3] He told me about a freight about three minutes away
4] He let me know they were looking for kids on ATV's who had been pulling down signal wires and to call them or the local PD if I saw anything out of place
5] We talked about his job while the freight went by (missed the picture oh well)
6] He let me know of his positive view of railfans as additional eyes for the railroad police
7] We shook hands and parted company
So you see, neither of us are the enemy.

 

[BigC801]

Most of the foamers around here get in trouble when the stand in the middle of the dam track taking pics. ( and yes we will call your ass in if your standing on the track) If u use your head most never have a prob. Two weeks ago we saw one cause a big wreck trying to get a pic of our pos UP loco. The railroad cops are not just cops either, they have a federal commission.

 

[RRgumshoe]

LOL LOL I had to answer this post.

I'm a gumshoe.....hence the name. If I see a railfan aka railnut aka railjunkie...we got all kinds of names

I usually stop, say hi and wish them luck. Once in awhile I actually have to get out of my car and ID the subject and inform them they are trespassing. For the most part, all of the railfans in the areas that I patrol know who I am and I definately know who they are. One railfan actually has my cell phone number because he's a former police officer and he provides me with any information that he sees while he's out watching trains.

It's very rare for me to actually write a ticket for trespassing unless I find the subject actually committing a crime on railroad property....vandalism, theft...hell I got a drunk driver the other weekend! It's just another charge we can tag the suspect with.

I will write tickets to railfans or anyone else if I see them climbing on trains, taking pictures while standing on the tracks or near a moving locomotive. Bascially you really have to do something stupid in order to piss me off enough to write you. But that's just me.

My advice to anyone taking pictures near railroad property. DON"T GET STUPID and use common sense because if an engineer or conductor calls me out...I will respond immediately and take action. It takes a lot to upset those guys aboard the engine and if I hear them call out then I usually know it's something good. I monitor every train in my area......but that's just me.

By the way....in my state we carry FULL police powers throughout the state. I average five traffic stops for everything from disregarding railroad xing gates to speeding. I even carry power to enforce local city ordiances.

 

[kb2vxa]

Hi again,

After reading the last few posts and seeing that common sense finally prevails you guys get a big HOO-RAH! DP, I agree with you too even if you "respectfully disagree" without realizing we're actually in complete agreement! Yup, there are some idiot transit cops and bad apples just like you'll find in any law enforcement and all walks of life.

Keep on railfanning, they get awfully hot and warp in summer. Catenary sags and pantographs snag so don't forget the overheads. Don't mind the high voltage, it only hurts for a second.

My own sick brand of humor reminded me of something heard on the scanner the other day. Transit police responded to "a body on the tracks" to find someone charred but alive lying there surrounded by burglar tools. It seems he was walking a railing next to the cats intent on gaining entry to a nearby building, got within the 3' minimum clearance and 11,000 volts put a painful end to his escapade.

 

[railfaninnj]

I've been stopped a few times for photographing trains & associated structures. Once was in Bound Brook, NJ, when the local police were getting conflicting direction from County, State & Federal sources & the NJT photography permit nonsense was in effect. The cop spent 30 minutes on the phone with the NJT PD, who refused to come & arrest me as I had insisted they do. He finally gave me a verbal 'warning!'

The best one was in Kearny. I had just parked off the pavement & myself & a fellow photographer were just unloading our camera gear to photograph the Conrail Hack lift bridge. A Town of Kearny police car pulled up & informed us that there was a Department of Homeland Security ban on photographing railroad bridges & that we had the choice of either leaving or having our gear confiscated. They gave us the name of the Sgt who was the Emergency Management liaison gay. I called him a few days later & explained the situation. He told me that there is no such ban & that those cops had just been 'blowing smoke' in order to scare us off!

While this is still a free country, there are now limits on your freedom. A good way to get in trouble quickly is to photograph a refinery, chemical plant, or nuclear power station. Some photo locations such as the Bear Mountain Bridge in NY are off limits because they are on the list of terrorist 'targets.' We can't prevent terrorism but we have lists of targets to make politicians feel like they are doing something when they are actually powerless.

Franklin Roosevelt united this country after Pearl Harbor. George Bush & the Republican Congress used fear in order to repeal the 4th Amendment and divide this country after 9-11 into a bunch of paranoids.

Fan

 

[Dorpmuller]

Franklin Roosevelt united this country after Pearl Harbor. George Bush & the Republican Congress used fear in order to repeal the 4th Amendment and divide this country after 9-11 into a bunch of paranoids.

Fan

Bush is a psychopath, period.

Now you know why I moved out of NJ-not to mention the ratrace-things are pretty laid back here in Pa. and I only got checked out once, so far, by locals. Most of us are probably out enough that the crews know us by sight anyway.

BTW, my photos are here: http://www.railpictures.net/showphotos.php?userid=4208
if you wanna see 'em. Places I shot in NJ in the 80's would draw gunfire now...

Rich

 

[hoser147]

In my area they are posting brand new No Tresspassing signs at about every intersection. dont know if this is a liability concern or if they plan on enforcement but I dont want to be the one to test the waters. Yesterday we had a grain (straight truck) and a train collide it tore up the cab of the truck and derailed the locomotive and it landed on its side, amazing no injuries to the engineers or the truck driver. VERY LUCKY...................hoser147