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How far have you thrown your 4 watts?

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jbantennaman

Completely Banned for the Greater Good
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72
Long story short.
My dad was in the NAVY back in 1954 and he flew with the Blue Angels as their crew chief. Many times he flew in cargo planes with the spare parts and tools. At times he carried a pocket AM radio with him and he loved to listen to country music out of Nashville - while he was traveling up and down the east coast.

When he came home, the Civil Defense was a big thing and they all went to CB radios - with a license, in case of a national emergency, so they could communicate with each other. Which in a way, is kind of a joke, because a 4 watt transmitter in the coal patches of Pennsylvania had a hard time traveling more then 50 miles with a 1/2 wave antenna.

Here is part of the conversation -

To continue our phone conversation from Tuesday.
The normal output from a CB radio was 4 watts.
4 watts @27 MHz is good for about 25 miles.
The distance can be increased depending upon numerous things, elevation,
antenna gain etc.
Ionosphere bounce (Skip) is very common at 27Mhz and communications even
using single element (car whip style) antenna across the US or even across
the ocean is possible. The furthest that I talked was to Sydney and
Melbourne Australia.

The beam antenna like you dad had up had a gain of about 12db. That is
like 16 times the power so a 4 watt into the antenna made it like 64 watts
into a whip antenna.

The standard modulation was AM.
AM has been around from the 20s, was easy to modulate and demodulate. It had some drawbacks.
1. It was not very efficient. If you had a 10 watt transmitter you needed
a audio power of 10 watts to modulate it to the maximum 100%. 50K signal
like KDKA am required 50,000 watts of audio.

2. Other outside electrical noise easily caused interference on the
receiver. Lightning, power line noise, car ignition, etc.

3. The receiver "threw away" 1/2 the power
In a AM signal there is the carrier and two sidebands the carrier + the
modulation and - the modulation.
Example: WCEZ in Punxsy has a carrier frequency of 1540 kHz. To make
things easy, Let's assume that they were sending a single 1KHz audio tone
for a minute. If you looked at the output of the transmitter on a spectrum
analyzer you would see the main carrier at 1540 kHz and a signal at 1539Khz
and one at 1541KHz. The two sidebands would be 1/2 the level of the main
carrier. The receiver only uses one of the sidebands and discards the
other. The main signal, the carrier, is there just to carry the
information modulation through the air.

Single Sideband was a major break through for AM type communications. In
SSB only the information is being sent, no carrier. This is great from a
sending view but the receiver needs a signal to tune to for demodulation.
So in SSB receivers there is actually a little transmitter that fakes the
receiver into thinking that the carrier is there. This transmitter is
called a BFO for Beat frequency oscillator.

The Federal Communications Commission authorized CB in 1958. At that time
they permitted Amplitude Modulation at a maximum of 100% and a final tube
input power of 5 watts DC. The reasoning was that the most efficient
design amplifier would be about 80% which would generate about 4 watts of
output power. When CB started to tale off in the early 60 and Regency
Electronics (AKA Idea Corporation) started building high quality units
Regency looked for some technical advantage to why people should buy and
pay a premium for their units. Regency determined that if they used a
combination of regular AM and SSB that they would have a slight advantage.
The transmitter had a DC input power of 5 watts meeting the FCC rules and
modulated with a 20 watt audio signal. The modulation was a Double Sideband
for several reasons. The filter to remove one of the sidebands was very
expensive at the time, and with transmitting both sidebands a regular AM
receiver would not notice any difference from a standard AM transmitter.
The power in a standard AM sideband was a maximum of 2 watts or audio
where as in the Regency the audio was equivalent to 10 watts (actually
about 8 watts when you factor in all losses) but as you can see it was
about 4 times the audio power. The model of this Regency was called a
Range Gain. Regency went further and added a BFO to the receiver and
eliminated the carrier in the transmitter in a step toward making it like a
SSB transmitter. Only this style had both sidebands being transmitted. It
was called a Double Sideband Suppressed Carrier.

Well the FCC didn't like this too much and changed the rules to limit the
"audio" power to both SSB & DSB transmitters. I don't remember the exact
specifications but it amounted to about 8 watts of maximum audio power. By
this time the Japanese were making cheap radios and the quality USA made
stuff went by the way.... Browning, TRAM, Regency, Courier, etc.
 

jbantennaman

Completely Banned for the Greater Good
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A Knight Kit - C 560 was the radio of choice for my dad. He built several of them.

Most of them were set up so you had one knob that tuned the transmit channel and a second knob that tuned the receive and crystals for each channel you wished to transmit on.

He built several of them that was both AC / DC and could be used out in a automobile.

My Uncle tried that route and then moved up to a Regency Range Gain and a Browning Golden Eagle.

I still have a large box of tubes for the Knight radios.

It would barely put out 4 watts when the tubes were brand new.
 

stilaR8dr

Member
Premium Subscriber
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Messages
19
Location
san leandro, CA
I am curious about the longest distances various users of CBs have transmitted. This is with the 4-watt LEGAL limit only, please!

I was thinking that I had a shot at the longest. Till I read a second time and seen the big word "LEGAL".

Had a brain fart....

Thought to myself "I wasn't running any power that day either. I am in this game."
I was on top of a hill that I could look out and see all of the San Francisco Bay from.
I could not use power. It would bleed-over the entire bay.
The only way up to the top was in 4X4 mode.... "Are the front hubs locked?"... "Yep"... "Hold on. We are on our way to the TOP of the bay." I would say.
I used to do it a few days a week.

Then it hit me... Duhhh! My radio carried way lower then the 4 watts... Butt it SWANG way over 4 watts in modulation!

Darn!!
Disqualified.
 

stilaR8dr

Member
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Messages
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Location
san leandro, CA
define please

I am curious about the longest distances various users of CBs have transmitted. This is with the 4-watt LEGAL limit only, please!

You have made me also very curious as the results of this thread.

Did you mean mobile or base?
Am or sideband?
 

DX949

Completely Banned for the Greater Good
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364
You have made me also very curious as the results of this thread.

Did you mean mobile or base?
Am or sideband?
What ever you have.............if its a CB then its all good i figure.
 

SCPD

QRT
Joined
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Messages
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Location
Virginia
In 1977 I talked 77 miles from Lake City SC to Morven NC Ground wave early one moring using a Midland 76-863 and a Mighty Magnum 3 antenna !

HT range 11 miles near Lake City SC to a base relaying an auto emergency in the woods
Mobile to Base about 18 miles from Florence to Lake City SC
 

DX949

Completely Banned for the Greater Good
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Messages
364
I was thinking that I had a shot at the longest. Till I read a second time and seen the big word "LEGAL".

Had a brain fart....

Thought to myself "I wasn't running any power that day either. I am in this game."
I was on top of a hill that I could look out and see all of the San Francisco Bay from.
I could not use power. It would bleed-over the entire bay.
The only way up to the top was in 4X4 mode.... "Are the front hubs locked?"... "Yep"... "Hold on. We are on our way to the TOP of the bay." I would say.
I used to do it a few days a week.

Then it hit me... Duhhh! My radio carried way lower then the 4 watts... Butt it SWANG way over 4 watts in modulation!

Darn!!
Disqualified.
Warren is not going to like you.........but who cares..........................lol :0)
 

mike_gain

Member
Joined
Mar 21, 2009
Messages
171
Location
Western NC
I didn't know uniden made cb's in 1976. Sure it wasn't a cobra? I had the power turned all the way down on a kenwood ts 430, I keyed up and whistled, someone whistled back. I turned the power back up and asked if he heard me, he said sure. Confused, I checked the output with the knob fully ccw it showed something like 200mw. My 1st qrp contact. Western NC to Fla with 200mw.
 

n5ims

Member
Joined
Jul 25, 2004
Messages
3,993
I assume that since you're have the legal power limit of 4 watts you also include the maximum legal distance limit of 155.3 miles (250 km) as defined by FCC rule 95.413 (CB Rule 13).

§ 95.413 (CB Rule 13) What communications
are prohibited?
(a) You must not use a CB station—
(1) In connection with any activity
which is against federal, state or local
law;
(2) To transmit obscence, indecent or
profane words, language or meaning;
.
.
.
(9) To communicate with, or attempt
to communicate with, any CB station
more than 250 kilometers (155.3 miles)
away;

http://www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Engineering_Technology/Documents/cfr/1998/47cfr95.pdf
 

DX949

Completely Banned for the Greater Good
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Messages
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I assume that since you're have the legal power limit of 4 watts you also include the maximum legal distance limit of 155.3 miles (250 km) as defined by FCC rule 95.413 (CB Rule 13).

§ 95.413 (CB Rule 13) What communications
are prohibited?
(a) You must not use a CB station—
(1) In connection with any activity
which is against federal, state or local
law;
(2) To transmit obscence, indecent or
profane words, language or meaning;
.
.
.
(9) To communicate with, or attempt
to communicate with, any CB station
more than 250 kilometers (155.3 miles)
away;

http://www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Engineering_Technology/Documents/cfr/1998/47cfr95.pdf

I was wondering when that was going to pop up,I am surprise Warren didn't, :0)
 

reedeb

Member
Joined
Sep 14, 2006
Messages
849
Location
Dallas Texas
I assume that since you're have the legal power limit of 4 watts you also include the maximum legal distance limit of 155.3 miles (250 km) as defined by FCC rule 95.413 (CB Rule 13).

§ 95.413 (CB Rule 13) What communications
are prohibited?
(a) You must not use a CB station—
(1) In connection with any activity
which is against federal, state or local
law;
(2) To transmit obscence, indecent or
profane words, language or meaning;
.
.
.
(9) To communicate with, or attempt
to communicate with, any CB station
more than 250 kilometers (155.3 miles)
away;

http://www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Engineering_Technology/Documents/cfr/1998/47cfr95.pdf

ALWAYS gotta be one in every crowd. Must be a saint and NEVER done anything remotely wrong in your life huh?
 

ModelTrainGeek

Member
Premium Subscriber
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Jan 20, 2010
Messages
83
I don't curently have a CB, but looking in to getting a used one to have around.. But back in the day when I had my old Cobra 139xlr I use to try DXing.. But gave up as there was a local jerk (on air and off) and his uncle that use to like to moving beams while talking and stuff to make them look like DX and claim they were in different areas.. so I could never tell if I had a legit contact or just those twits..
 

chrismol1

P25 TruCking!
Joined
Mar 15, 2008
Messages
1,181
I was making contact with another CB and he gave me his location

Oh shoot, 155.4 miles and I had to end our conversation
 

n5ims

Member
Joined
Jul 25, 2004
Messages
3,993
ALWAYS gotta be one in every crowd. Must be a saint and NEVER done anything remotely wrong in your life huh?

Nope, just trying to establish the rules. Since the OP indicated that the radio had to be running no more than the 4 watt legal limit, I was just checking that legal power was the only stipulation or if the user had to be fully legal while operating.

Bu the way, I have done a few wrong things in my life. I was even caught speeding by a county police officer in rural Mississippi running 55 MPH in a 45 MPH zone. I stated to the officer that when I saw his lights turn on, I checked and was indeed doing 55 and asked what the issue was. He indicated that that road was now 45 and let me off with a warning (and followed me to the end of the county to make sure I kept it at the legal limit).

Just like I wasn't aware of the speed change, many folks aren't aware of the CB Rule 13 and may believe it is infact legal to use their CBs to communicate with stations further than the prescribed distance. While the FCC nearly certainly doesn't have enforcing this particular rule as their highest priority, for folks that attempt to follow the rules, it's nice to know that they exist. For the others, I hope that they have fun using their Collins S line hooked up to a Henry 2K linear to talk to the "good buddies" on the 11 meter band.
 

JayMojave

Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2007
Messages
722
Location
Mojave Ca
Good postings: John IMS you may want to use the Decafinated Brand.

When I was a kid living in Laveview Terrace Ca. near the San Fernando Valley we would hike to the top of the near by hills and talk on our 100 Milli Watt Walkie Takies, talking all over the place. What a gas. We as young kids sure got charged up over all the 1 and 2 mile contacts we made to the near by Hansen Dam area.

Then with just a Johnson 4 channel CB radio Four Wheeling on top of the mountains I was able to hit stations into Long Beach about 60 miles.

Shooting skip was a blast also, making new friends, and learing about radio theroy and such was great to learn.

We had CB Breaks in the Sunland Tujunga area in the 60's and 70's and brought in people from all over the California from San Diego to Bakersfield. They Had C&W and Rock n Roll bands and a very large dance floor and Bar in the basement of the local VFW, man we had a blast.

Dad use to give me 20 bucks for gas to drive up on the mountains and advertise the CB breaks over the air, on channel 15. Man what a criminal I was I used a Palmar Pulser Linear Amplifier, almost 30 watts! I should have been gived the chair for talking well over the 150 mile limit!..........

Ah the good ol days....

Jay in the Mojave
 

poikaa

Member
Joined
Dec 24, 2008
Messages
49
Location
Ishpeming,Michigan... A Yooper! "In Da U.P.&q
Best I have ever done with a bone stock radio and a 102 whip was just over 28 miles, terrain was hilly. No S meter reading in AM mode.
With a 28.322 mHz crystal oscillator, running about 1/10 of a milli watt, on a ten meter beam I made it to Virginia about 750 miles! Mode was CW. If you do the math that would be over 750,000 miles per watt!

73 KB8DNS
 

n5usr

Member
Premium Subscriber
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Messages
596
Location
Bethany, OK
When I was 16 I installed a CB in my car. Sitting in the driveway, I tuned around and found someone to ask how the thing sounded. Turns out the guy was in California (I was in OKC, OK). Wow, that was cool! :p

At the time I knew nothing about propagation and other RF niceties. But that sure helped spark my interest, which eventually led to getting my ham license.

In a way I'm going back to those low-power days. I now have an FT-817ND, which is a 5W HF rig. Doubt I'll ever use AM though (all my CB back then had), probably stick with CW or PSK31. I get far more excitement from mobile or QRP operations than sitting at home with the full shack at my disposal.
 

fmon

Silent Key Jan. 14, 2012
Joined
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Messages
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Location
Eclipse, Virginia
a better question would be.....
Has anyone been able to talk to someone from your own town?
We were stationed in Roosevelt Roads PR in 1967-68 and often talked to my parents and others in central KS. 7 years later while stationed in Guantanamo Bay over three years we often made the same connection.

Talking direct (non-skip), in 1965 I called my wife in Orange Park, FL while flying over Savannah at 27000 ft with a distance near 120 miles. She had a Sonar FS23 and stacked 5 Hi-Gain. Again just prior to transfer to PR while returning from Viet Nam, I called her sitting in our car at the squadron hanger in NAS Jax--she using a Sonar G with center loaded antenna We were over Pensacola at 30k with distance near 340 miles. In both cases her transmission was at 4+ watts and mine at 500 watts.
 
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