Info on the delays/issues with the Metrocrest Quad Cities Public Safety Radio System

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TLF82

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Well when you consider NY State, Vegas, Oakland, Metro Crest, and others i'm sure this just comes down to the product & parent company itself (Harris, Tyco, Macom, CommNet, Ericsson, GE) . How many Motorola systems are being bought back (honest question)? The Houston issues were mostly the fault of the city system administrators that restricted talkgroups geographically, using mismatched encryption keys, and providing no training to end users that have never operated on a trunked system before.

Honestly I do not think Harris realized what a turd the product line was when they bought it, because the green radio company makes a pretty damn good product.

It's definitely the Harris infrastructure that's the issue... It's been proven too many times around the country that it has issues.

I know a lot of guys either using or maintaining Phase 2 Motorola systems and I've not once heard any issues about their systems like I've heard about the Harris systems.
 

KevinC

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It's definitely the Harris infrastructure that's the issue... It's been proven too many times around the country that it has issues.

I know a lot of guys either using or maintaining Phase 2 Motorola systems and I've not once heard any issues about their systems like I've heard about the Harris systems.

I've not seen any other reports of Harris P25 simulcast P2 TDMA issues...maybe I missed them though.

I've seen numerous reports of OpenSky not working well though.
 

Kitn1mcc

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All the open sky system are stuff they got from MA-Com and now they have to fix them. Here in CT harris has Waterford and New London and the systems work on p25
 

mostinterestingman

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All the open sky system are stuff they got from MA-Com and now they have to fix them. Here in CT harris has Waterford and New London and the systems work on p25


It's their Phase 1 & 2 simulcast that seem to be unreliable. Their Phase 1 multi-sites seem to do ok , but once they get into LSM forget it.
 

TexasTalker

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Similcast Distortion on Metrocrest Quad Cities Public Safety Radio System

I agree that this sounds like simulcast distortion. To me it sounds somewhat similar to what happens when you simulcast audio from one digital system through another digital system. I've seen similar problems on the SAUA P25 system, which is a simulcast of the San Antonio/Bexar County EDACS system. By the time the audio has been encoded as EDACS ProVoice, decoded by the ProVoice radio, and re-encoded by the P25 radio, it gets pretty nasty and difficult to understand. This may be oversimplifying the situation a bit, but that does appear to at least partially explain the issue.

EDIT: Also, having those interop frequencies is not only convenient for working with other agencies - it could be a matter of life or death in the event that one of these large, complicated systems goes down. Having them and knowing how to switch to them should be a safety requirement. As I recall, those Harris portables should be capable of VHF as well, so it would probably be helpful to have the old VHF interop channels as well. A vast majority of departments still have those programmed into at least some of their radios.

I am the feed provider for the Broadcastify audio service, providing audio of the Metrocrest Quad Cities Public Safety Radio System using both the Uniden Bearcat BCT536HP and BCD996XYP2 radios. I have struggled to adequately receive and properly decode the digital voice of this system for months.

Despite very strong received signal strength, both of my receive radios were equally unable to adequately decode the digital audio. My receive point is roughly equidistant from two (2) of the simulcast radio transmitters, both located at municipal water towers, approximately 120-150 AGL. So far, I have resisted the use of any type of directional antenna, as, in actual service, the field handheld units will also not be using type of directional antennas. I have no doubt that my radios are incapable of receiving and decoding the digital voice signals due to the high level of multi-path distortion at the radio receive location, multi-path created by the simulcast of two identical modulation envelopes from two separate transmitters, each located about 3 miles from my receiver. Hearing the garbled audio, I wondered how-in-the-hell police officers, using a handheld transceiver, might establish reliable voice communications with dispatch and each other? Apparently, Carrollton officials are now wondering the same thing.

In my opinion, the technology of digital voice CODECs does not work well and sometimes does not work at all in a distributed or simulcast radio system. The problems recently published by the NTECC and WFAA-TV are a good indication that my poor receive and decode experience is not unique.

The police officers and City Manager of the City of Carrollton are dissatisfied and disgusted with the Harris radio problems.

As is evidenced by the recent audio coming from my scanner receiver tonight and observing the scanner's display, Carrollton, Addison and Farmers Branch have now transitioned back to their legacy Motorola trunked radio system, using the old, reliable, 9600 baud digital control channel and the old, reliable ANALOG voice. Analog voice, complete with picket-fencing, noise, squelch-tails and other distortions we are familiar with is 100% intelligible and not subject to failures related to computer software and GPS failures. Thumbs down to Harris! Go Motorola!

TexasTalker
 
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nd5y

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I wondered how-in-the-hell police officers, using a handheld transceiver, might establish reliable voice communications with dispatch and each other?
Real radios don't have that problem.
Scanners are consumer grade junk and the scanner manufacters aren't capable or refuse to make a receiver that works properly on a P25 simulcast system.
 

TexasTalker

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Harris Radio Severe Problems in Carrollton, Texas

Real radios don't have that problem.
Scanners are consumer grade junk and the scanner manufacters aren't capable or refuse to make a receiver that works properly on a P25 simulcast system.

Tom, Agreed that the consumer radios do not have the robust front-ends and IF sections that the "real" radios may have. But the City of Carrollton, Texas has several million dollars worth or "real" Harris Corporation radios and has not been able to get them to work reliably either. Carrollton has recently transitioned back to the Motorola analog radios and, pending the outcome of the attempted repairs, has withheld several million dollars payment to Harris and may sue.
 

fasteddy64

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because I am an optimist, and because we have experienced absolutely flawless performance from our EDACS system, I am going to believe that things wont go that way here in Abilene when the big switch takes place......
 

mostinterestingman

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because I am an optimist, and because we have experienced absolutely flawless performance from our EDACS system, I am going to believe that things wont go that way here in Abilene when the big switch takes place......


Edacs is a totally different animal than TDMA LSM. I agree that EDACS infrastructure has been a rock solid performer, unfortunately their portable subscribers have the audio quality of a $60 Puxing.

I hope you guys go with FDMA and don't even waste Your time with their TDMA infrastructure. I would say go with an APX or a Viking but Harris cannot get their own radios to work on their own P2 systems.
 

fasteddy64

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We have already purchased the radios, mostly XG-75 portables, a few XG-25's.
Same with the mobiles a mix of 75's and 25's.

Migration will happen in the next 3 years.
 

Russell

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So .... is anything happening with the new Metro Crest system? Aside from everybody moving back to Moto system, is Harris doing anything at all right now?
 

n5ims

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My logging using Unitrunker shows that various Public Works channels are still on the Harris system. There are a few "Joins" on some PD and FD talkgroups, but little else. There are times when the control channel changes, at times several times per hour.

There have been some apparent testing using 706xxx radio IDs on talkgroup 700 and a few others, but much of this has been encrypted so it can't be said for certain that this is testing related.

On a somewhat related note, I received word that Farmers Branch will soon move to the new combined dispatch center, but using the old Motorola system. This is because they are past the date that their old dispatch area was to be turned over to the new tenants. Most of the necessary equipment is already in place at the new location so they're just waiting on the old radio folks (Xerox) to get the old Motorola systems set up and working on the new dispatch consoles.
 

n5ims

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Someone is currently testing on one of the FB Fire TAC channels on the old system. It is unknown if this is Harris testing or Xerox fixing some issues on the old system. They are being pretty specific on what they're testing ("mic is x" from mouth, with settings of ..."). Frankly some of those test transmissions sound good and others sound pretty bad. I doubt if it's a test of a link between the old and new systems since there's nothing on the new system in the 160x talkgroup range, which is where I would expect that FB Fire TAC channel to map.

There is some good news, although this would be from the Jan 7, 2016 meeting, prior to the negative local news story where lawsuits between the cities and Harris were hinted at.

http://ntecc.org/DocumentCenter/View/81
Harris radio system is another high risk item but has improved based on feedback from Farmers Branch. Some of the small problems have been addressed.
 

urdumb

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Some of these comments are insane. Harris's LSM P25 platform is wonderful. I maintain one of them (I don't work for Harris) and it's rock solid stuff.

Every manufacturer has system deployments that don't go well. You can replace the name of the manufacture with any other manufacture and see the same things across the country and the world. It nearly always comes down to the following:

A) Training
B) poor implementation
C) coverage not being contractually binding
D) did I say training?

Was a consultant hired here?
 

KevinC

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Some of these comments are insane. Harris's LSM P25 platform is wonderful. I maintain one of them (I don't work for Harris) and it's rock solid stuff.

Every manufacturer has system deployments that don't go well. You can replace the name of the manufacture with any other manufacture and see the same things across the country and the world. It nearly always comes down to the following:

A) Training
B) poor implementation
C) coverage not being contractually binding
D) did I say training?

Was a consultant hired here?

Is your system TDMA?
 

mostinterestingman

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Some of these comments are insane. Harris's LSM P25 platform is wonderful. I maintain one of them (I don't work for Harris) and it's rock solid stuff.

Every manufacturer has system deployments that don't go well. You can replace the name of the manufacture with any other manufacture and see the same things across the country and the world. It nearly always comes down to the following:(
A) Training ( training prevents system crashes & unintelligible audio? )
B) poor implementation ( Agree 100%, don't put public safety on a crashing/failing system)
C) coverage not being contractually binding (coverage is only an issue here when the system crashes)
D) did I say training? ( training prevents system crashes & unintelligible audio? )

Was a consultant hired here?
yep, RCC

I don't see Motorola buying back failed new systems, nor have I ever seen new Motorola users running to bring all their old Harris gear back to life because their system is unreliable. )

It nearly always comes down to the following:(
A) Training ( training prevents system crashes & unintelligible audio? )
B) poor implementation ( Agree 100%, don't put public safety on a crashing/failing system)
C) coverage not being contractually binding (coverage is only an issue here when the system crashes)
D) did I say training? ( training prevents system crashes & unintelligible audio? )
 

Vanyel

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The most costly disruptions always happen when something we take completely for granted stops working for a minute.

Just my 2 pennies worth.
 
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