Is CHP Going P25 and/or Encrypted?

[HappilyRetired]

LOL your actually trying to chase $$ in the State of California .....good luck with that. (ref; the high speed trillion dollar train to no where funds that have been allocated, reallocated, spent, re-spent, reallocated etc etc etc...)

No sir. What I was actually trying to do was find the document that stated what the build-out plan was because I was getting frustrated being told I was wrong. I knew what I had read. That was just one of the documents and I posted the narrative portion of what the funds were going to be used for. It had absolutely nothing to do with the dollar amount.

 

[mmckenna]

You may not have noticed but the output power was expressed in ERP. An ERP of 100 watts corresponds to an actual radiated power of 5-10 watts, depending on the type of antenna used. Ham classes plus an online calculator...

No. I think you may be misunderstanding the way it works.
ERP = Effective Radiated Power
ERP takes into account transmitter output power. It subtracts duplexer losses (if it's a repeater), feedline losses, and anything else in the path. It then multiplies that by antenna gain.
The wattage of the transmitter could be anything, antenna gain can boost the ERP by focusing what power gets to the antenna in a specific direction.

An ERP of 100 watts would equal:
A 100 watt radio right at the antenna into a unity gain antenna.
A 50 watt radio right at the antenna into a 3dB gain antenna
Etc….

I live in the mountainous Temecula area that includes the Cleveland National Forest. 5-10 watts at 800mhz is not going to cover more than a couple of miles. I'm sure in more demanding areas like the 58 going from Mojave to Bakersfield their HT's would stand no chance of being heard on the station channel. Or in Forest Falls in the San Bernardino Mountains where I was hiking until the fires. The Arrowhead station is a very long ways away. I'm sure you didn't intend to, but you write as if the station frequency is a 700 MHz version of their low-band system. I get that from your statement that they're transmit power is ~100w. That would imply a wide area coverage. That it is not. According to the CHP radio instruction guide, the real purpose of this frequency is for VIP escorts through the area. It is intended more for car to car then station to car.

You are correct, 5 to 10 watts isn't going to work very far in most instances. However, it can under some conditions. Straight line of sight it can. I run a few 800MHz systems, and I can easily hit those 70 miles south if I have a clear path with a 15 watt radio, and if careful, a 3 watt portable.
But as you pointed out, in the mountainous areas of Southern California, that's not going to work reliably.

The low band traffic could easily be patched to the 700MHz channels. That's what happens on the mobile repeaters, and it's likely possible at the stations. Not sure if they actually do it, though.

The only question remaining is the original one. Will they go to encryption?

That is the $64,000 question. So far I don't think anyone has any proof one way or the other. If you can find something that says they'll encrypt on low band, I'd enjoy the read.

 

[Remington12G]

I've been reading up on this thread and @mmckenna is correct. Here are pictures from the latest install from CHP Fleet Services. They have a five radio install with a single control head, as far as I can tell it is the EFJ Varent of the full feature Kenwood control head (Since KW owns EFJ it all makes since). I have nothing else to offer to the thread other than this!

 

[HappilyRetired]

No. I think you may be misunderstanding the way it works.
ERP = Effective Radiated Power
ERP takes into account transmitter output power. It subtracts duplexer losses (if it's a repeater), feedline losses, and anything else in the path. It then multiplies that by antenna gain.
The wattage of the transmitter could be anything, antenna gain can boost the ERP by focusing what power gets to the antenna in a specific direction.

An ERP of 100 watts would equal:
A 100 watt radio right at the antenna into a unity gain antenna.
A 50 watt radio right at the antenna into a 3dB gain antenna
Etc….

You are correct, 5 to 10 watts isn't going to work very far in most instances. However, it can under some conditions. Straight line of sight it can. I run a few 800MHz systems, and I can easily hit those 70 miles south if I have a clear path with a 15 watt radio, and if careful, a 3 watt portable.
But as you pointed out, in the mountainous areas of Southern California, that's not going to work reliably.

The low band traffic could easily be patched to the 700MHz channels. That's what happens on the mobile repeaters, and it's likely possible at the stations. Not sure if they actually do it, though.

That is the $64,000 question. So far I don't think anyone has any proof one way or the other. If you can find something that says they'll encrypt on low band, I'd enjoy the read.

I'm not sure how I was incorrect. Straight from Google. The screenshot is below. But then you agreed with the answer. LOL.

"5-10 watts
An ERP of 100 watts corresponds to an actual radiated power of 5-10 watts, depending on the type of antenna used.

Federal Communications Commission › guides › hum...
Human Exposure to Radio Frequency Fields: Guidelines for Cellular Antenna ..."

Screenshot_20201103-121535_Google.jpg

As far as encryption, the only thing I found is the APCO 25 recommendation that the standard is for interoperability, encryption, and sending sms.

 

[mmckenna]

I've been reading up on this thread and @mmckenna is correct. Here are pictures from the latest install from CHP Fleet Services. They have a five radio install with a single control head, as far as I can tell it is the EFJ Varent of the full feature Kenwood control head (Since KW owns EFJ it all makes since). I have nothing else to offer to the thread other than this!

Evans and I have been trying to figure out the "five" part of the install. They only show 4 decks, at least from what we can see. Not sure if there is another hiding somewhere, or they are talking about a separate mobile extender radio. Kenwood/EFJ only make 5 bands in those radios (some have different power level options) VHF Low, VHF Hi, UHF low split, UHF high split and 700/800MHz. Not sure why they'd need the low split UHF.

 

[mmckenna]

I'm not sure how I was incorrect. Straight from Google. The screenshot is below. But then you agreed with the answer. LOL.

"5-10 watts
An ERP of 100 watts corresponds to an actual radiated power of 5-10 watts, depending on the type of antenna used.

Federal Communications Commission › guides › hum...
Human Exposure to Radio Frequency Fields: Guidelines for Cellular Antenna ..."

Screenshot_20201103-121535_Google.jpg

Not sure where that is coming from, but it's not accurate.

The FCC requirements on human exposure are a different thing all together.

As far as encryption, the only thing I found is the APCO 25 recommendation that the standard is for interoperability, encryption, and sending sms.

Yeah, APCO recommends a lot of stuff, but they are not in a position to require anything. The requirements for P25, encryption and interoperability come from the feds. P25 is recommended for interoperability, although there are lots assigned analog interoperability channels that the DHS has set aside. The only place FCC -requires- P25 is on the public safety portion of the 700MHz band.
From the feds standpoint, they require P25 and compatible encryption if and only if radios are being purchased with federal grant funds. Not sure if CHP is using federal grants to purchase their radios. From the documentation, it looks like it comes from vehicles fees from the state budget.
And the feds don't "require" use of P25 and encryption, only that the radio must be capable of using it.

SMS type text messages as well as GPS position data is achievable over most digital modes. DMR and NXDN will both do it, as will P25. GPS data is commonly used for tracking vehicles (known in the industry as Automatic Vehicle Locating, or in the amateur radio world as APRS Automatic Position Reporting system). I have not run across an agency using the text function on the radios, yet. I've played with it on my system, but quickly grew tired of trying to type out messages on the radio keypad. For the CHP, it's much easier to use the data terminal in the vehicle, or to use their FirstNet cell phones.

 

[Remington12G]

Figure out the "five" part of the install. They only show 4 decks, at least from what we can see.

I also thought that the advanced full feature head only allowed 4 decks at a time, that's at least what the EFJ website shows and I know based on my use of KW/EFJ radios.

or they are talking about a separate mobile extender radio.

I think that's the "fifth radio" they are referring to.

Not sure why they'd need the low split UHF.

I'm not from Cali but I also don't see a reason for it unless they plan on interoping with NTIA frequencies or .mil systems (with proper authorization of course).

 

[mmckenna]

I'm not from Cali but I also don't see a reason for it unless they plan on interoping with NTIA frequencies or .mil systems (with proper authorization of course).

Yeah, that's all I can come up with. The photos the CHP has shared only seems to show 4 decks. The Feds have different stuff on different bands, and I believe under NTIA rules can operate on the DHS interop channels. I'd find it more likely that CHP would want the higher split UHF radios to talk to local agencies on the higher end of the UHF band, T-band, etc. There's some agencies north of me that use 48x.MHz stuff.

 

[KK6ZTE]

Evans and I have been trying to figure out the "five" part of the install. They only show 4 decks, at least from what we can see. Not sure if there is another hiding somewhere, or they are talking about a separate mobile extender radio. Kenwood/EFJ only make 5 bands in those radios (some have different power level options) VHF Low, VHF Hi, UHF low split, UHF high split and 700/800MHz. Not sure why they'd need the low split UHF.

You can see the Pyramid SVR in the picture. Probably radio #5.

I can't stand more than 2 decks on a KCH-20R, I can't imagine how bad it is with 4 much less 5. I'm going to move my VHF#3 (V/U/V setup) deck onto another head once I get my 5600H.

 

[mmckenna]

As far as encryption, the only thing I found is the APCO 25 recommendation that the standard is for interoperability, encryption, and sending sms.

For the record, APCO did develop the APCO Project 25 standard over the last 25 or so years. They've had a number of other "Projects", including Project 16 (P16) used for early trunked radio systems. Only trouble with that was that P16 systems could meet the requirements to wear the P16 label, but still not interoperate with other P16 systems. Motorola SmartNet/SmartZone were P16, as was Ericsson/GE/whatevertherenameisnow EDACS, yet EDACS and SmartZone could not talk to each other.

 

[mmckenna]

You can see the Pyramid SVR in the picture. Probably radio #5.

That's what I was thinking. Proven system, so no point in changing it. Kenwood has well established capability to work with them, and using the internal mobile repeat function on the NX-5K radios would tie up the 700/800 deck.

Still looking for more info on these new setups.

 

[KK6ZTE]

That's what I was thinking. Proven system, so no point in changing it. Kenwood has well established capability to work with them, and using the internal mobile repeat function on the NX-5K radios would tie up the 700/800 deck.

Still looking for more info on these new setups.

If you've played with the internal mobile repeat, you'll find it's worthless. It shuts the whole radio down to play fake repeater.

Pyramid is where it's at. (Except when you have two that don't hear each other but hear the officer's portable...Santa Maria office has a ton of issues with that).

 

[HappilyRetired]

Not sure why they'd need the low split UHF.

Certain LAPD channels. Long Beach PD. LAX and Van Nuys airport police. Los Angeles County Fire Department but they're going I guess to LA-RICS. Numerous fire departments. That's just Los Angeles County.

From the massive amounts of stuff I've read, all radios and all units Statewide will have the same programming. When I looked at the specifications of the 5600 HP I saw its capable of 3000 channels. Before I retired our radio had 512 channels. We had access to LA County Sheriff, agencies that had not switched over to the current trunking system called ICIS?

 

[mmckenna]

If you've played with the internal mobile repeat, you'll find it's worthless. It shuts the whole radio down to play fake repeater.

Thanks. I haven't tried it yet. We're running NX-5700's and NX-5900's in all our new vehicles. We don't normally use extenders, but considered it as an option. Preference would have been a Pyramid anyway.

 

[scannerboy02]

If you've played with the internal mobile repeat, you'll find it's worthless. It shuts the whole radio down to play fake repeater.

Pyramid is where it's at. (Except when you have two that don't hear each other but hear the officer's portable...Santa Maria office has a ton of issues with that).

I have been wondering how they work around having more than one on at a time. I know back in the 154.905 days they had the audible tone that would sound when an extender was turned on and that was suppose to turn the others off, although it didn't work all the time.

I'm guessing P25 isn't as forgiving when having multiple extenders on the same frequency at the same time. I'm also wondering how interference between the 700 MHz P25 extender and whatever 700 MHz P25 channel(s) a mobile radio may be trying to use will be dealt with.

 

[mmckenna]

From the massive amounts of stuff I've read, all radios and all units Statewide will have the same programming. When I looked at the specifications of the 5600 HP I saw its capable of 3000 channels. Before I retired our radio had 512 channels. We had access to LA County Sheriff, agencies that had not switched over to the current trunking system called ICIS?

There's a licensed option on the radios to bump them to 4000 channels.

On the old CHP system, they had an interface that would allow them to remotely reprogram some of the radios. We had an incident where CHP was assisting us. They didn't have our VHF channel in their radios, so the CHP guys back in Sacramento built a new file to include it. They had the CHP guys connect to our local WiFI and they pushed a new file to the radio. Not sure if the new setups support that, but I'd be really surprised if it doesn't. Was a really nice setup.
No doubt CHP is running custom firmware in these setups. Would be interesting to know what toys have been added. 3000 installations of 4 RF decks is a hell of a lot of money for Kenwood.

 

[KK6ZTE]

Certain LAPD channels. Long Beach PD. LAX and Van Nuys airport police. Los Angeles County Fire Department but they're going I guess to LA-RICS. Numerous fire departments. That's just Los Angeles County.

From the massive amounts of stuff I've read, all radios and all units Statewide will have the same programming. When I looked at the specifications of the 5600 HP I saw its capable of 3000 channels. Before I retired our radio had 512 channels. We had access to LA County Sheriff, agencies that had not switched over to the current trunking system called ICIS?

There's no such thing as a "5600HP". It's the NX-5600HBF3 or just NX-5600H (or VM-5600 but I don't see it in the Viking info)

A "low split" is a 400-470MHz radio. A "high split" is a 450-520MHz radio. You're talking about high split (T-band, >470MHz) channels and they're talking about how a low split radio doesn't make sense because of T-band use in LA. You actually are agreeing but don't know it.

 

[HappilyRetired]

John W6JBH,

Actually, the type 2 NX-5800 is 380-470, not 400-470.

NX-5000_mobile_Specsheet_K_02_prnt.pdf

The sales brochure of the 5600 refers to it as the 5600HB.

Kenwood-NX-5600HB-brochure.pdf

Screenshot_20201103-141756_Drive.jpg

This is twice you have laughed at me today. I've made it abundantly clear that I am a new user. People learn by asking questions. People that laugh at people that ask questions are immature. I have looked at some Motorola radios and their band split was 450 - 470 and 470 - 512 and assumed the same. I was incorrect. I am too green to know the difference. Since you're more knowledgeable and have chosen to better inform me of the model number of the radio perhaps you could find a constructive way of helping me learn rather than laughing at me with railfan. It seems to me that you should be acting more like an ambassador of this site rather than laughing at new users. Why don't we work towards mutual respect rather than ridicule?

 

[KK6ZTE]

We're laughing at your attitude, not your questions. I have no problem helping someone who genuinely wants to learn, but you need to drop the attitude and stop getting defensive when people who have more experience in behind the scenes public safety communications comment on your thread. Great job using ULS! You've outed me!

 

[GTR8000]

Sorry to butt in, but that photo shows a Kenwood/EFJ Viking VM7000 setup, not the Kenwood NX series. The KCH-20 enhanced control head is capable of controlling four separate decks. That series is only capable of P25 digital modulation, not NXDN or DMR. The low band deck is only capable of analog.

VM7630 - Low band deck
VM7730 - VHF deck
VM7830 - UHF deck
VM7930 - 700/800 deck

https://d3cz7oi6fhv94u.cloudfront.net/0782-94208857-Viking%20VM7000%20Product%20Sheet.pdf?versionId=PnA1ngnqls25Hx96Y5tTzN09CVg1H5M2