Let me see your license...

[bill4long]

In states like that I can see one asking. But then one has to ask, does the law really stop a criminal from getting, using or having in possession a radio to do his doings. I doubt it as he would care less as he has no issue going to his second home at pine hills pen. Same as the red flag laws.

No. But as I said last comment, IMO, the statute provides a "pile on" charge, for people caught using scanners in the commission of illegal activities. "Piling on" is one of the techniques prosecutors use to get people to accept plea deals with reduced charges to avoid a trial.

 

[NC1]

You may need to educate the officer about the FCC regulations where having physical possession of an issued license is no longer required. If you are in the database, then as far as the FCC is concerned you are legally licensed according to your privileges. Almost every police officer is able to to confirm your license within minutes. Quite frankly I don't see a problem here. If you have exemptions in your state or county, then I am sure you are already aware of documentation you may be required to produce.

As for the "nothing to hide" argument, it fundamentally and mistakenly suggests that privacy is something only criminals desire. It also has things backwards because it suggests that we are all worthy of suspicion until proven otherwise. Fences, locked doors, and drawn curtains, are ways to ensure a measure of privacy, not indicators of criminal behavior. Even if we have nothing to hide, that does not mean we want to have nothing private. Privacy is a fundamental right of a dignified life. Some have very large boundaries where privacy is concerned, and others like having people in their personal business, it is a matter of personal preference and not a socially agreed upon line in the sand.

As for me, I am legally licensed and am not required to carry paperwork to prove it. I keep as little information on me as possible in case my wallet is lost/stolen, or someone breaks into/steals the car, etc. The more information someone gathers on you, chances grow exponentially that they will have a more than normal (think "abnormal") level of interest in your affairs - and sometimes that can be inconsequential, or it can go VERY bad.

 

[KK4JUG]

I completely agree. In GA, one need only attend 6 weeks of training (standard police academy) to deprive someone of ALL of their civil rights and it takes someone with a doctoral degree to get your rights returned. One of the reasons we have "bad" cops is poor training. It is the same of the constabulary wants to search my car. Get a warrant or a dog or release me.

What academy in Georgia did you attend? It's 11-week state training regimen plus whatever training the local agency goes through to familiarize you with the local procedures.

You don't need police training to deprive someone of their civil rights.

 

[Giddyuptd]

What academy in Georgia did you attend? It's 11-week state training regimen plus whatever training the local agency goes through to familiarize you with the local procedures.

You don't need police training to deprive someone of their civil rights.

It wasn't the one where the group got caught on radar cheating was it. Jk. I had to.

 

[bill4long]

You may need to educate the officer about the FCC regulations where having physical possession of an issued license is no longer required... I am legally licensed and am not required to carry paperwork to prove it.

Irrelevant. The FCC requirements have nothing to do with individual state statutes. The FCC regulations pertain to operation of radios, more specificially, to transmitting on radios. The state statutes (at least Indiana) pertain to the possession of radios.

Sidebar #1: the FCC has preemption over states in the matter of regulating radio transmissions. (And in some cases, possession as well.) States have no authority to alter or amend any FCC regulation in this matter. (There are very slim exceptions to this. See sidebar #2.) For example, a state cannot add extra requirements for who can get an Amateur Radio license. However, states do have authority to regulate the physical possession of radios.

Sidebar #2: States can regulate the manner or content in which radios are used. For example, in Indiana, (a) A person who, with intent to harass, annoy, or alarm another person but with no intent of legitimate communication: (1) makes a telephone call, whether or not a conversation ensues; (2) communicates with a person by telegraph, mail, or other form of written communication; (3) transmits an obscene message, or indecent or profane words, on a Citizens Radio Service channel; [ed: which includes CB and FRS] .... commits harassment, a Class B misdemeanor. IC 35-45-2-2.

 

[kittrav]

A number of responses assume that the licensed amateur is in the vehicle being stopped. But what if there is radio equipment installed or being transported, and the driver is the spouse of, child of or other person using the vehicle with permission and without the licensed amateur present?

The Florida Statues are that if the installer of the radio equipment is an amateur operator, then the prohibition against having radio receiving equipment, capable of being tuned to law enforcement channels, does not apply to anyone operating the vehicle. But how many drivers or law enforcement personnel would know that?

843.16 Unlawful to install or transport radio equipment using assigned frequency of state or law enforcement officers; definitions; exceptions; penalties.—
(1) A person, firm, or corporation may not install or transport in any motor vehicle or business establishment, except an emergency vehicle or crime watch vehicle as herein defined or a place established by municipal, county, state, or federal authority for governmental purposes, any frequency modulation radio receiving equipment so adjusted or tuned as to receive messages or signals on frequencies assigned by the Federal Communications Commission to police or law enforcement officers or fire rescue personnel of any city or county of the state or to the state or any of its agencies. Provided, nothing herein shall be construed to affect any radio station licensed by the Federal Communications System or to affect any recognized newspaper or news publication engaged in covering the news on a full-time basis or any alarm system contractor certified pursuant to part II of chapter 489, operating a central monitoring system.

3) This section does not apply to the following:
(a) Any holder of a valid amateur radio operator or station license issued by the Federal Communications Commission.

 

[NC1]

Irrelevant. The FCC requirements have nothing to do with individual state statutes. The FCC regulations pertain to operation of radios, more specificially, to transmitting on radios. The state statutes (at least Indiana) pertain to the possession of radios.

Sidebar #1: the FCC has preemption over states in the matter of regulating radio transmissions. (And in some cases, possession as well.) States have no authority to alter or amend any FCC regulation in this matter. (There are very slim exceptions to this. See sidebar #2.) For example, a state cannot add extra requirements for who can get an Amateur Radio license. However, states do have authority to regulate the physical possession of radios.

Sidebar #2: States can regulate the manner or content in which radios are used. For example, in Indiana, (a) A person who, with intent to harass, annoy, or alarm another person but with no intent of legitimate communication: (1) makes a telephone call, whether or not a conversation ensues; (2) communicates with a person by telegraph, mail, or other form of written communication; (3) transmits an obscene message, or indecent or profane words, on a Citizens Radio Service channel; [ed: which includes CB and FRS] .... commits harassment, a Class B misdemeanor. IC 35-45-2-2.

Possession of a radio is an entirely different matter. I thought this was about showing a license, or am I way off base?

 

[KK4JUG]

It wasn't the one where the group got caught on radar cheating was it. Jk. I had to.

I saw a billboard yesterday trying to recruit new troopers. I've lived in this state for almost half a century and that's the first time I've ever seen the troopers advertise that way. I guess the sudden plummet of 30 had a definite effect.

But, yes, it was the same academy. The standard police academy has satellite academies across the state for local police and deputies but the troopers are trained at the big one in Forsyth, GA.

 

[kittrav]

Possession of a radio is an entirely different matter. I thought this was about showing a license, or am I way off base?

My point was that a licensed amateur could show a FCC license to a Florida LEO, to show that s/he is exempt from the law, but someone else using the vehicle would not have their own FCC license.

 

[kittrav]

My advice for anyone driving in Florida, is to have, in their glove box folder along with the vehicle registration and proof of insurance, a notarized affidavit that any auxiliary radio receiving equipment was installed by a licensed amateur radio operator, along with a copy of that amateur's license and a copy of the law, 843.16, Florida Statutes.

Any legal eagles have access to Shepard's Citations for Florida? Would be instructive to know if 843.16, F.S. has been cited in an appellate court opinion and affirmed, interpreted, declared unconstitutional or void.

 

[KK4JUG]

Whether those posting here are private, "principled," or just plain obstinate, nothing said here is going to change anybody's mind. I think it's time to go.

 

[AK9R]

I thought this was about showing a license, or am I way off base?

That was the OP's question. Folks are trying to explain why a law enforcement officer might have justification for asking to see your license. Several examples posted here have shown that the LEO has a legitimate reason to ask for your license if that license provides justification, under state or local statute, for your possession of equipment used for amateur radio.

IMHO, asking these kinds of questions in an online forum with participants from all over the country and, possibly, all over the world is a bit pointless. I don't think many of us who have responded to this thread are attorneys licensed to practice law in the OP's state. We can offer up opinions and provide examples. But, if the OP wants an accurate read on the question, he should probably talk to the local prosecutor/district attorney/state's attorney in his jurisdiction.

 

[NC1]

That was the OP's question. Folks are trying to explain why a law enforcement officer might have justification for asking to see your license. Several examples posted here have shown that the LEO has a legitimate reason to ask for your license if that license provides justification, under state or local statute, for your possession of equipment used for amateur radio.

IMHO, asking these kinds of questions in an online forum with participants from all over the country and, possibly, all over the world is a bit pointless. I don't think many of us who have responded to this thread are attorneys licensed to practice law in the OP's state. We can offer up opinions and provide examples. But, if the OP wants an accurate read on the question, he should probably talk to the local prosecutor/district attorney/state's attorney in his jurisdiction.

Yes, I agree that it really is a State specific issue if further "permission" is required due to restrictive laws applied in that state. If such a situation exists, then one would have to produce an approved exemption via paperwork or electronic verification.
As long as you are in compliance with applicable laws, whether you carry unnecessary paperwork or not, all is good.
Checking with a local Amateur club or two will probably yield better information in this particular scenario.

 

[rapidcharger]

(1) A person, firm, or corporation may not install or transport in any motor vehicle or business establishment, except an emergency vehicle or crime watch vehicle as herein defined or a place established by municipal, county, state, or federal authority for governmental purposes, any frequency modulation radio receiving equipment so adjusted or tuned as to receive messages or signals on frequencies assigned by the Federal Communications Commission to police or law enforcement officers or fire rescue personnel of any city or county of the state or to the state or any of its agencies.

Just noticing this. So if it's a C4FM or TDMA radio then you're exempt, right? Only FM radios are prohibited it sounds like. You'd just have to educate the cop and that always goes super smooth.

 

[prcguy]

"A person, firm, or corporation may not install or transport in any motor vehicle or business establishment". Wow, that means if you bring a police scanner or other receiver or transceiver programmed with any FL city, county, state fire or police freqs to work or a restaurant or any other "place of business" you are breaking the law. That would also mean if you are in a ham radio store and you purchase a police scanner or other radio and program a cop channel while still in the store you are breaking the law. What pinhead wrote that stupid law? Why is this not on the front pages of every newspaper in FL pointing out the police are trying to hide what they are doing from the public???

 

[kittrav]

"A person, firm, or corporation may not install or transport in any motor vehicle or business establishment". Wow, that means if you bring a police scanner or other receiver or transceiver programmed with any FL city, county, state fire or police freqs to work or a restaurant or any other "place of business" you are breaking the law. That would also mean if you are in a ham radio store and you purchase a police scanner or other radio and program a cop channel while still in the store you are breaking the law. What pinhead wrote that stupid law? Why is this not on the front pages of every newspaper in FL pointing out the police are trying to hide what they are doing from the public???

Thus my question: is there anyone with access to Shepard's Citations for Florida to check whether this statue has been challenged in court?

 

[KK2DOG]

This happened in the town where I live:

index

 

[KE0GXN]

"A person, firm, or corporation may not install or transport in any motor vehicle or business establishment". Wow, that means if you bring a police scanner or other receiver or transceiver programmed with any FL city, county, state fire or police freqs to work or a restaurant or any other "place of business" you are breaking the law. That would also mean if you are in a ham radio store and you purchase a police scanner or other radio and program a cop channel while still in the store you are breaking the law. What pinhead wrote that stupid law? Why is this not on the front pages of every newspaper in FL pointing out the police are trying to hide what they are doing from the public???

A couple years ago I went down to Florida and took my scanner mobile in my wife’s car. Used a very obvious Larsen scanner antenna on a mag mount on the roof of the car the entire time I was down there. Never once was I stopped by LE. I had my ticket, so I would have been covered regardless at the time, but my point is FL LE or LE in general has much bigger fish to fry then some Joe Smoe running around with a scanner. Some on here need to take a chill pill..... the police are not coming after your scanners.

Needless to say, everything I wanted to listen to LE dispatch wise was encrypted down there anyway, so as far as “the police trying to hide what they are doing from the public” mantra, having the scanner or not in my vehicle was a moot point.

At the end of the day, if you don’t like the laws in place where you live, elect lawmakers who align with your views, otherwise don’t fault LE.

 

[rapidcharger]

This happened in the town where I live:

index

Even though that happened a long time ago and ham radios aren't capable of receiving police anymore (upstate NY might still be one of the few exceptions for now) we can still learn from this.
In 1995, in a casual group dinner gathering, I learned from a cop, the importance not drawing attention to oneself. That would include not having devices in plain view that they might perceive to be suspicious. Yes, I know they might be perfectly legal but the object of this game is to not end up spending any time on the side of the road arguing with cops. 3 years later, I did not follow the advice and nearly got beaten to death and shot in the head (yes, the head) by a cop because my car caught their attention.

The second thing I noticed about that story is Lalone did not keep his mouth shut. I know this is a very difficult thing to do and for me it took practice, but in the US, we are under no obligation to answer questions and provide potentially self-incriminating evidence. It's the cop's job to investigate not the suspect's. If Lalone didn't answer "Yes, but....." and instead just piped down and didn't say a thing, there are a couple most likely scenarios. 1.) After giving up asking the question a hundred times, the cop would let him go after being satisfied he was not drunk; 2.) The cop could have told him to get out of the Jeep because they had probable cause to search it. They would have turned on the radio, it would have more than likely been on some HF amateur frequency to which the cop and their backup would have probably said to themselves that it is just a CB and then let him go.

In summary. Don't call attention to your vehicle. Keep radios out of plain sight.
Do not argue with cops. Ever. Do not attempt to educate cops. This will not go well. Your goal is to spend 0 minutes on the side of the road. ZERO. If you spend any more time than zero minutes, you lose. If you get a ticket, you lose. If you go to jail, you lose. If you get shot, you lose.
Just provide the necessary documentation and do not answer any questions even if you think the answer will help clear you of any wrongdoing.

 

[jim202]

Way back in the late 60's I had the chief of police knock on the door of my Aunt's house in New Hampshire. In those days you could have a second license at another location. He started giving me a hard time about causing TVI to a neighbor's TV set.. Told me I couldn't use my radio again. I asked him if he was from the FCC. He said no that he was the chief of police. I then asked him what power he had to demand that I cease operating my ham radio set. He again said that He was the chief of police. I asked him for a business card and thanked him for the visit.

The next day I sent a letter to the FCC and asked them what power the local police chief had to tell me I couldn't use my ham radio transmitter. About a week later I received a copy of the letter that the FCC sent the police chief. Never had another problem with the chief.

There are times when the local law might bother you. But pick your battles carefully before rocking the boat.