BigDog-911
Member
jcpd9720 said:
Concur totally!!
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Concur totally!!
Why isn't LFD being a team player?
LFD went to the "with our own dispatchers we get better service." school.
I'm sure there are labor issues as well. LFD's dispatchers are IAFF folks and have a whole different set of working conditions in their contract. One thing is the lucrative 24 on/48 off shift. I would suspect there are salary/monetary issues too.
With that being said, eventually LFD's dispatching will be blended completely with MetroSafe. The county departments have done some preparatory things for when that happens. That's why you hear "Engine 1234" instead of "Unit 1234". Those familiar with the local until numbering scheme for suburban departments know that the 3rd digit, the three in the this example means it's an engine company. With the LFD folks being used to hearing the type of unit before the number, that may be of assistance in learning the county numbering system.
Personally I think it was unnecessary to do that, because I got this philosophy that most dispatchers are smart enough to learn the numbering system.
That's life in the democracy for you.
I'm sure there are labor issues as well. LFD's dispatchers are IAFF folks and have a whole different set of working conditions in their contract. One thing is the lucrative 24 on/48 off shift. I would suspect there are salary/monetary issues too.
With that being said, eventually LFD's dispatching will be blended completely with MetroSafe. The county departments have done some preparatory things for when that happens. That's why you hear "Engine 1234" instead of "Unit 1234". Those familiar with the local until numbering scheme for suburban departments know that the 3rd digit, the three in the this example means it's an engine company. With the LFD folks being used to hearing the type of unit before the number, that may be of assistance in learning the county numbering system.
Personally I think it was unnecessary to do that, because I got this philosophy that most dispatchers are smart enough to learn the numbering system.
That's life in the democracy for you.
Hmm, it didn't notify me their were any more responses, which is the reason for the delay in responding. So is LFD still at Brook and Bloom or are they actually at MetroSafe? Are they part of the Intergraph CAD? On another note, I thought the Positron system was just for the phone. The only CAD system prior to 2005 was for the police, correct? Fire/EMS were done on run cards before, correct? An LFD dispatcher told me once that they would receive calls from county asking who's jurisdiction such and such was in because LFD could look it up in [don't remember the name] whereas the county couldn't.
When a call is transferred to a different police agency, do they receive the ANI/ALI info?
I understand everything about the ESN, which is why I don't understand why it was such a problem in the past (or maybe still is) about figuring out who's district it's in. Such as R/M in J-Town or the Prospect Police Dept.
One last question. Is MetroSafe E-911 Phase II compliant? The NENA site lists it as only being Phase I compliant, along with Lexington and the other large/prominent cities. Some of these small counties, some of which are still BLS (Bracken) are able to locate cell phone callers yet places like Louisville and Lexington can't!
Thanks for the responses.
When a call is transferred to a different police agency, do they receive the ANI/ALI info?
I understand everything about the ESN, which is why I don't understand why it was such a problem in the past (or maybe still is) about figuring out who's district it's in. Such as R/M in J-Town or the Prospect Police Dept.
One last question. Is MetroSafe E-911 Phase II compliant? The NENA site lists it as only being Phase I compliant, along with Lexington and the other large/prominent cities. Some of these small counties, some of which are still BLS (Bracken) are able to locate cell phone callers yet places like Louisville and Lexington can't!
Thanks for the responses.
I can tell you for a fact that MetroSafe is not phase II compliant.Just the other day I heard a call for EMS on my scanner and the caller didn't know where he/she was at all.All the caller could tell the calltaker was that they were near the Ohio river,a freeway and some trees.LMPD had cars in about 4 divisons looking for this person,I don't know how that call turned out but I do know that not only MetroSafe but the cell phone companies need to get on the ball with the E911 program.
In regards to my first post on this forum about digital radio systems being a ticking timebomb I thought I should post this article from the Philadelphia Inquirer that I found on the RR home page incase none of you have seen it.
Firefighters' families file suit!
The lawsuits allege that Motorola's faulty radios led to two deaths in a basement marijuana farm.
By Julie Shaw
Inquirer Staff Writer
The families of two firefighters who died after being trapped in a smoky fire in a Port Richmond basement where a man had been growing marijuana have sued Motorola Inc., claiming the company's faulty radio equipment led to the deaths.
Two civil lawsuits, filed in Philadelphia Court of Common Pleas, each seek more than $50,000 jointly or separately from Motorola, another communications company and Daniel Brough - the man who had set up the pot farm. The suits also seek a jury trial.
Philadelphia Fire Department Capt. John Taylor, 53, of Northeast Philadelphia, and firefighter Rey Rubio, 42, of North Philadelphia, both died of asphyxiation in Brough's basement on the 3600 block of Belgrade Street while responding to an Aug. 20, 2004, fire.
The lawsuits, filed on behalf of Charlene Taylor, Taylor's wife, and Amelia Hyden, Rubio's daughter, contend that "the malfunctioning Motorola radio system prevented Capt. Taylor from communicating with other firefighters while he was in the basement" to let them know that he and Rubio needed assistance.
Taylor's repeated attempts to use his radio to signal for help were not heard by firefighters outside, the lawsuits say. Meanwhile, in the burning basement, Rubio, then Taylor, collapsed on the floor after each of their air supply packs ran out.
"Both men suffered agonizing and horrible deaths from asphyxiation, before they could be rescued," the lawsuits say.
Taylor's radio was part of the city's new $62 million emergency communications system, purchased from Motorola, for use by the police and fire departments.
Installed in 2002, the digital radios became the source of numerous complaints, many from firefighters whose calls were blocked by busy signals.
A Philadelphia Fire Department spokesman yesterday said he would not comment on the lawsuits because of the pending litigation.
Spokesmen for Illinois-based Motorola and Wireless Communications and Electronics Inc. of Philadelphia, a codefendant in the lawsuits, also said yesterday they had no comment because of the pending litigation.
At Brough's criminal trial last year, the prosecution contended that the fire was caused by the intense heat from the 1,000-watt lamps Brough used to grow marijuana plants in a small plywood basement closet.
Brough, 37, was convicted of two counts of involuntary manslaughter and other offenses and sentenced in December to 15 months to four years in prison. He is currently serving his time at the State Regional Correctional Facility in Mercer.
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In regards to my first post on this forum about digital radio systems being a ticking timebomb I thought I should post this article from the Philadelphia Inquirer that I found on the RR home page incase none of you have seen it.
Firefighters' families file suit!
The lawsuits allege that Motorola's faulty radios led to two deaths in a basement marijuana farm.
By Julie Shaw
Inquirer Staff Writer
The families of two firefighters who died after being trapped in a smoky fire in a Port Richmond basement where a man had been growing marijuana have sued Motorola Inc., claiming the company's faulty radio equipment led to the deaths.
Two civil lawsuits, filed in Philadelphia Court of Common Pleas, each seek more than $50,000 jointly or separately from Motorola, another communications company and Daniel Brough - the man who had set up the pot farm. The suits also seek a jury trial.
Philadelphia Fire Department Capt. John Taylor, 53, of Northeast Philadelphia, and firefighter Rey Rubio, 42, of North Philadelphia, both died of asphyxiation in Brough's basement on the 3600 block of Belgrade Street while responding to an Aug. 20, 2004, fire.
The lawsuits, filed on behalf of Charlene Taylor, Taylor's wife, and Amelia Hyden, Rubio's daughter, contend that "the malfunctioning Motorola radio system prevented Capt. Taylor from communicating with other firefighters while he was in the basement" to let them know that he and Rubio needed assistance.
Taylor's repeated attempts to use his radio to signal for help were not heard by firefighters outside, the lawsuits say. Meanwhile, in the burning basement, Rubio, then Taylor, collapsed on the floor after each of their air supply packs ran out.
"Both men suffered agonizing and horrible deaths from asphyxiation, before they could be rescued," the lawsuits say.
Taylor's radio was part of the city's new $62 million emergency communications system, purchased from Motorola, for use by the police and fire departments.
Installed in 2002, the digital radios became the source of numerous complaints, many from firefighters whose calls were blocked by busy signals.
A Philadelphia Fire Department spokesman yesterday said he would not comment on the lawsuits because of the pending litigation.
Spokesmen for Illinois-based Motorola and Wireless Communications and Electronics Inc. of Philadelphia, a codefendant in the lawsuits, also said yesterday they had no comment because of the pending litigation.
At Brough's criminal trial last year, the prosecution contended that the fire was caused by the intense heat from the 1,000-watt lamps Brough used to grow marijuana plants in a small plywood basement closet.
Brough, 37, was convicted of two counts of involuntary manslaughter and other offenses and sentenced in December to 15 months to four years in prison. He is currently serving his time at the State Regional Correctional Facility in Mercer.
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N_Jay
Guest
Bluegrass1dcr1 said:
Don't forget, you can be Phase II compliant and still get bad/no locations due to the specifics of the call and the callers equipment.:roll:
BigDog-911
Member
kyparamedic said:
LFR Dispatchers are at Barret Ave and we all work very well together. The trouble, if that is what you want to call it, is that they are IAFF as Chief mentioned and they have a very strong union. So strong that the majority of members of MetroSafe wanted to switch to their own version of IAFF and were shot down by Louisville Metro Council.(another story all together)
When transferring a call to another Law Enforcement PSAP, Shively, Anchorage, J-Town and St. Matthews, the ani-ali information is tranferred with the call. When it is transferred to Rural Metro, to my knowledge, it is not transferred. Also, with Rural Metro being the EMS for J-Town, their dispatchers do not provide prearrival instructions to callers who might have a full arrest on their hands or something like that. Not sure of their training or capabilities but a general thought is that they should be at least EMD(Emergency Medical Dispatch certified) to provide that assistance to the citizens of J-Town.
In reference to the question of Phase II compliant, at this time, to my knowledge, we are not Phase II compliant. But that is not fully the fault or responsibility of MetroSafe but the cellular providers that provide us with that information. In response to the EMS call heard down by the river, if the caller is using a 911 phone, one that can only dial 911 and has no service associated with it, it still may not be able to provide Phase II information to the center. Also, with the location that you provided in your post, even with Phase II it doesn't put you right to the front door of where the emergency is but gets you very close. Very close might be a 4 block area, that in the area that you mentioned, could be in the river or the skateboard park, one of the office buildings in the area.
We are not perfect and do not claim to be. We do the best we can with the information and technology provided to us and sometimes, yes sometimes, we make mistakes. The only time Dispatch is mentioned in a conversation involving an incident is when someone perceives that there was a mistake by someone in the center. The lone Lexington Airport Dispatcher has never been mentioned because he wasn't a front line hero, not taking anything away from the Police and Fire personel that responded, they busted their humps in a very trying situation that no training could prepare you for.
Just my thoughts and observations.
Have a great holiday weekend all.
D
I hear that they dedicated the new MetroSafe building yesterday.Maybe this means that the project will sometime soon be complete.
BigDog-911
Member
By soon you are referring to the next 2 yrs? They dedicated a shell of a building that, to my knowledge, hasn't had the first wall moved or piece of left behind furniture auctioned off yet.
It is still a long way to go before MetroSafe's "new" building is up and running.
It is still a long way to go before MetroSafe's "new" building is up and running.
The MetroSafe project consists of many different pieces, or what "they" call phases. Some of the phases are done, those are putting most of the dispatch operations under the same roof, putting all or most all of the dispatchers under 1 chain of command (or as best as it can be under the system of how we do things) and the MotoBridge (rubber band/bubble gum/paper-clip). Please note the word "most" which means more than half but not "all".
The last phases are to convert the old Federal Reserve Bank to the primary dispatch center, and to replace the voice radio system. Also, some where in there is an MDT phase. The dedication yesterday was pretty much just a point in time pretty much for symbolic purposes that there is a desire to have a reasonable degree of communications commonality for emergency responders. As we know 5 years ago, the need for commonality was clearly shown.
Right now the building is pretty close to a shell, but a little more than that. The Emergency Management Agency (MetroSafe's parents) have moved their offices there. The EOC is there and Louisville IT is probably going there reasonably soon (but realizing in government-speak reasonably soon is usually measured in months).
The bottom line is finality for the whole MetroSafe shee-bang is probably every bit of two years down the road. I'm putting my money on it being even later, and might even be inclined to give odds that it won't be any sooner.
The last phases are to convert the old Federal Reserve Bank to the primary dispatch center, and to replace the voice radio system. Also, some where in there is an MDT phase. The dedication yesterday was pretty much just a point in time pretty much for symbolic purposes that there is a desire to have a reasonable degree of communications commonality for emergency responders. As we know 5 years ago, the need for commonality was clearly shown.
Right now the building is pretty close to a shell, but a little more than that. The Emergency Management Agency (MetroSafe's parents) have moved their offices there. The EOC is there and Louisville IT is probably going there reasonably soon (but realizing in government-speak reasonably soon is usually measured in months).
The bottom line is finality for the whole MetroSafe shee-bang is probably every bit of two years down the road. I'm putting my money on it being even later, and might even be inclined to give odds that it won't be any sooner.
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Thanks for the responses. MetroSafe's website says that 25-30% of cellular 911 calls have location data sent with them. To me this means that MetroSafe is Phase II compliant, at least in terms of being able to receive the information, but NENA lists it as Phase I only. If by location info they mean the address of the tower, then that would be Phase I. The location information for Phase II is sent in the form of lat/long coordinates, so does MetroSafe have a GIS system to show the approximate location on a map? I think most cell carriers in this area are Phase II compliant since other PSAP's are receiving all the location information. Nextel, Sprint and Verizon are using handset-based GPS whereas Cingular and some others are using a system-based solution that uses triangulation from the cell towers. The GPS solution being more accurate, but as was pointed out, may be a 4-block area. I believe GPS is supposed to be within 100 yards 67% of the time. I don't have the numbers in front of me. How is MetroSafe handling VoIP (internet) phone calls? I've heard this called E911 Phase III by some people.
Is LFR on the same CAD as MetroSafe? If not, how will this new CAD prevent the same issue that happened before with the child who was shot and transported by police while the call was being transferred and dispatched by LFR?
You are correct that Rural/Metro does not receive ANI/ALI info, the call just goes to a standard POTS line, to the "bat phone." The dispatchers are not trained at the academy in Richmond unless they got it from a prior job although they do have the ProQA or MPDS flip cards, but don't use them. Some dispatchers will give CPR instructions or some prearrival instructions but it's hit or miss, there's no real training or standards as they're not a primary PSAP. At one point they were talking about using LFR's protocols and had them but don't know if anything ever came about with it. There was a while when many of the calls weren't being forwarded but the info was just called over by a dispatcher.
Anyway thanks for the info and keep up the good work!
Is LFR on the same CAD as MetroSafe? If not, how will this new CAD prevent the same issue that happened before with the child who was shot and transported by police while the call was being transferred and dispatched by LFR?
You are correct that Rural/Metro does not receive ANI/ALI info, the call just goes to a standard POTS line, to the "bat phone." The dispatchers are not trained at the academy in Richmond unless they got it from a prior job although they do have the ProQA or MPDS flip cards, but don't use them. Some dispatchers will give CPR instructions or some prearrival instructions but it's hit or miss, there's no real training or standards as they're not a primary PSAP. At one point they were talking about using LFR's protocols and had them but don't know if anything ever came about with it. There was a while when many of the calls weren't being forwarded but the info was just called over by a dispatcher.
Anyway thanks for the info and keep up the good work!
BigDog-911
Member
kyparamedic said:
Yes they are, but In reference to the statement made above, and I was not working that day, but as I understand it the closest ambulance had just cleared Floyd Memorial Hospital. The closest fly car and med unit were dispatched to the run. The police officers and firefighters that transported the young lady waited as long as they thought they could/should and transported. As far as I understand, and be mindful I do not have the data in front of me, but the fly car was on scene when the police officers transported. If it was not, it was maybe 1-2 minutes later. I believe that the first EMS responder was on the scene in about 9 minutes. But on the other hand, being the devils advocate, why don't police transport anyone else to hospital like they did other than that child? It hadn't been done in a long time before that and hasn't been done since.
The police and firefighter/emt's on the scene that day are without a doubt heroes, in every meaning of the word. Nothing was said about the Dispatchers and CAD sending the closest police units and fire units to the scene so that they could expedite the saving of a life. Just that how could it take so long for an ambulance to get to the scene and it had to the error of the either the dispatcher or the CAD.
I will get off my soap box.
My God keep all responders safe!!
I don't like how the media always portrays ambulances taking a long time either. It's not like we do it on purpose. They should focus on the issue of WHY they take a long time which more times than not is because of non-emergenct runs. Maybe they should do an expose on the abuses of the 911 system. In the situation with the child who was shot though, I remember the news reporting that the initial call was answered and police were dispatched and on-scene within 2 minutes but the call was then transferred to LFR and there was an additional 3-4 minutes of info-gathering before the ambulance was dispatched, by which time the child was already en route to or at the hospital. I think this was prior to the integrated CAD system though come to think about it, as they used this case as an example of why the new CAD was necessary and would allow all the dispatchers from each agency to know where the units were and give updates to their respective officers/med units/fire units.
The unfortunate part of being in public safety, probably for any part of government service, is this: It only takes seconds to say we did something wrong, or it took a half hour for _____ to arrive. To explain what really happened takes minutes and the media seems to be only interested in the negative stuff because of its drama, and drama sells newspapers.
Usually when someone gets critical of how long it takes us to arrive, I end us saying that it wasn't our fault that the line at McDonald's was so long, or we wanted to see how the movie ended, before we made the run.
Usually when someone gets critical of how long it takes us to arrive, I end us saying that it wasn't our fault that the line at McDonald's was so long, or we wanted to see how the movie ended, before we made the run.
unitcharlie
a Kentucky DB Admin...
I am interested in the drama.... but I don't dismiss facts that need to be reported. Two police officers running through a burning apartment building pounding on doors to get people out is pretty dramatic. The fact that it took less than five minutes for the first-in engine to arrive didn't matter, that's normal at that hour of the morning.... they knocked the fire down with minimal extension and no injuries.... a really good series of stories that day.
You can blame the media for bad information and keep the problem going or you can educate members of the media about procedures, timing and everything else that goes into being in public service. Response time is the biggest problem because too many "eyewitnesses" have no concept of time.... just as time stands still for first responders at a scene, time is incomprehensible to those who have witnessed something that requires a response (and most folks have no concept of time anyway). And very few media people listen to scanners well enough to know which unit was dispatched and note the time of dispatch.... much less what time the first units go on scene.
As soon as is safe and practical the Incident Commander or someone so designated to release information should offer a quick media briefing to those present explaining the basic facts as they are known at that time including dispatch and arrival times.... All-to-often the incorrect information becomes fact because it is the only information out there until well after an incident.....
You can blame the media for bad information and keep the problem going or you can educate members of the media about procedures, timing and everything else that goes into being in public service. Response time is the biggest problem because too many "eyewitnesses" have no concept of time.... just as time stands still for first responders at a scene, time is incomprehensible to those who have witnessed something that requires a response (and most folks have no concept of time anyway). And very few media people listen to scanners well enough to know which unit was dispatched and note the time of dispatch.... much less what time the first units go on scene.
As soon as is safe and practical the Incident Commander or someone so designated to release information should offer a quick media briefing to those present explaining the basic facts as they are known at that time including dispatch and arrival times.... All-to-often the incorrect information becomes fact because it is the only information out there until well after an incident.....
BigDog-911
Member
But my question to the media is this then, why report something that they do not know is true or not until they find the correct information out? Officer involved shootings are usually first told from the perspective of the bystander. Which in Louisville means it is almost always someone that is disgruntled with the Police for pulling their brother over or arresting their sister for DUI or drug charges or whatever and you get such a skewered view and they run with it. "Officer kills suspect without provacation, suspect little Johnny Doe was a good upstanding member of the community who would never do any wrong and was killed by police" Disregard the fact that he was armed with a Mac 10 and had narcotics on him.
Also be mindful of this, as most members of the media are not biased towards emergency services, I am not biased towards the media. Several of the news desk people that call into our center are good people doing a job.
Also be mindful of this, as most members of the media are not biased towards emergency services, I am not biased towards the media. Several of the news desk people that call into our center are good people doing a job.
I don't think its an issue with educating the media. Most emergency services around here make every effort to respond to, and correctly inform the media. Whenever there are inconsistencies, every effort is made to correct them.
My point is that from time to time, we are guilty and have to prove our innocence.
I'd be willing to bet at least one fine meal on the following. Reporters stick microphones in the face of emergency responders and say "The neighbors said you took too long to get here" much more often than you see them stick microphones in the faces of neighbors and say "The fire department said they got here real fast".
My point is that from time to time, we are guilty and have to prove our innocence.
I'd be willing to bet at least one fine meal on the following. Reporters stick microphones in the face of emergency responders and say "The neighbors said you took too long to get here" much more often than you see them stick microphones in the faces of neighbors and say "The fire department said they got here real fast".
red8
Member
Metrosafe
are left to be desired. Oh by the way Patrick Go Cats Boo Cards lol
from a UK fan from Louisiana
I agree with you Patrick that UHF system does leave some things thatpblumer said:
are left to be desired. Oh by the way Patrick Go Cats Boo Cards lol
from a UK fan from Louisiana
Cats Rule! Cards Drool! Nuff Said.
BigDog-911
Member
I believe the current rankings and records speak for themselves at this time. Not saying that things won't change for the Cards. But I digress...for another forum
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