Major disaster comms options

[rescuecomm]

Again, nuclear attack is the least likely disaster. If there is a nuclear missile strike, quite honestly I hope I am standing exactly at ground zero.

What if you are not? What happens to your family if you are and they aren't? That's the reasoning for these threads. I wish my wife would keep a GMRS portable in her car and keep it up. We have two GMRS repeaters in the area. One is on a 911 site and the other is on the local EAS site. Will they be up after a nuclear attack? Doesn't matter if she doesn't have the radio.

 

[smittie]

LOL! How likely do you think a nuclear attack is? How likely do you think any one of the other events the original poster listed is?

 

[rescuecomm]

The other things are more likely as long as our leaders don't push old Vlad too hard with sanctions.

 

[rescuecomm]

I don't want this thread to get locked, but some guys I worked with got on this subject. One of them made the "I want to die immediately" if nuclear attack happened. Amazingly, he was better prepared than anyone else at the table. He had a 24 foot travel trailer that got used three times a year at minimum. All he needed was communications gear to find out where to go. Although the Federals might indicate where to go on broadcast, I would think that you'd need CB, GMRS, and amatuer radio to find the best way. I think he had a CB in his truck.

 

[smittie]

That everyone ignored what I suspect was the intended thrust of the OP's message and went nuclear is hilarious to me.
We should all go out and buy one of those desks that was used in class rooms in the '60s. That was all the protection we needed.

 

[vagrant]

That everyone ignored what I suspect was the intended thrust of the OP's message and went nuclear is hilarious to me.
We should all go out and buy one of those desks that was used in class rooms in the '60s. That was all the protection we needed.

We also had those desks in the 70's. If I carry that on my back I'll never die.

On a serious note, whatever you have is all that you'll have during/after a non-obliteration event. I am extremely doubtful I would need to transmit, nor would I want to. Still, I would enjoy plenty of listening to find out where all the pizza is at.

 

[K6GBW]

Since I live right in the middle of a primary target area I'm not worried about a nuke strike. I'll probably never even realize what happened. Just a bright light followed by...hopefully, another bright light and Sgt. Saint Peter sitting behind the CQ desk wanting to see my orders. In my area, the biggest disaster to worry about is earthquake. I've been through a bunch of them. I hate the term "Prepper" because people envision a guy in camoflage and plate carriers with a serious paranoia problem, but I DO believe in being preppared. I have three weeks worth of stuff to keep me, the missus and the dogs going good until they can truck stuff in. I can stretch that if need be. During the 1994 quake we lost our phones for days. Fortunately, I was a brand new Tech and I used by shiny new Alinco dual band HT to find out how bad things really were. I did fifty times more listening than talking. I also used an AM radio to get undates. We had all the freeway overpasses down and it took months to get things moving again. Now I have HF, VHF, UHF and 220 and I also have a plan with my buddy that lives about sixty miles north of me. If we have another earthquake we go to 7.243MHz and check in with each other to make sure we're still alive.

 

[Boombox]

Key word short term. Terrestrial broadcasting is becoming less and less viable, as the corporate owners strip out local staff and replace with sat fed canned music and stop sets from Dallas or LA. None of this will help you when the tornado comes through or the flood waters rise in Omaha.

The local branches of these corporate owners invite you to "download our severe weather app" which will be utterly useless when the serving cell sites are offline or backhaul to the cellular network is taken out, or the non-replaceable battery on that flagship $1200 smartphone is dead.

Agreed on local radio. Most local radio is canned. It didn't help in Maui, for reasons mentioned in the Maui EMCOMM ham thread.

However, the EAS (Emergency Alert System) stations might work. Some AM stations are hardened for EMP attacks; FEMA funded such stations after 9-11. I know there is one in my area, hardened for EMP and earthquake proof (supposedly). Being that the PNW is 9 point earthquake country, such infrastructure is probably a good and workable idea. Such stations might still be operable after an EMP attack, and if they're 10KW or higher they'd be audible over a wide area, especially at night if they're an AMer.

As for severe weather, the Weather band does OK for alerts, but in a SHTF scenario, it probably won't be working. Really, if EMP hits, as the OP is concerned about, no one-on-one comms will be practical (GMRS, FMRS, ham, etc.). If you have GMRS, great. Who you going to talk to? Most citizens have no idea what GMRS is. Or ham radio, for that matter. Most hams aren't active now, when conditions are normal. When we had a local tornado warning (tornadoes are as rare as hen's teeth in this region), I switched on the Weather band, and there was a continuous alert. I switched on the 2 Meter band, and there was nothing but hiss.

But a working receiver -- AM/FM/SW -- would at least allow some access to information, providing the ionosphere is cooperating (and in the case of EMP, the radio itself isn't fried).

 

[MUTNAV]

That everyone ignored what I suspect was the intended thrust of the OP's message and went nuclear is hilarious to me.
We should all go out and buy one of those desks that was used in class rooms in the '60s. That was all the protection we needed.

Not everything, but in a lot of circumstances seems like a good thing to keep in mind

I'm not suggesting at all that unsurvivable events are survivable, but there is a lot of room between what is reasonable to do, an what is not.

At about the 2:12 time mark.

Aftermath in the street at 8:32

0:55 seconds for this one video part (1:05 for the slow motion version)

or about the 7:14 time mark on this on

Meteor Hits Russia Feb 15, 2013 - Event Archive


And here is some analyses of the whole idea of mocking duck and cover

Duck and Cover

Great discussion

Thanks
Joel

 

[MUTNAV]

I don't want this thread to get locked, but some guys I worked with got on this subject. One of them made the "I want to die immediately" if nuclear attack happened. Amazingly, he was better prepared than anyone else at the table. He had a 24 foot travel trailer that got used three times a year at minimum. All he needed was communications gear to find out where to go. Although the Federals might indicate where to go on broadcast, I would think that you'd need CB, GMRS, and amatuer radio to find the best way. I think he had a CB in his truck.

I like a lot of the ideas.... local information is super important, and CB/GMRS/2M may be the way to go for a lot of disaster information, just as important is to make contact ahead of time to know whom to trust with route information (as in who is providing the info...).

Thanks
Joel

 

[MUTNAV]

Agreed on local radio. Most local radio is canned. It didn't help in Maui, for reasons mentioned in the Maui EMCOMM ham thread.

However, the EAS (Emergency Alert System) stations might work. Some AM stations are hardened for EMP attacks; FEMA funded such stations after 9-11. I know there is one in my area, hardened for EMP and earthquake proof (supposedly). Being that the PNW is 9 point earthquake country, such infrastructure is probably a good and workable idea. Such stations might still be operable after an EMP attack, and if they're 10KW or higher they'd be audible over a wide area, especially at night if they're an AMer.

As for severe weather, the Weather band does OK for alerts, but in a SHTF scenario, it probably won't be working. Really, if EMP hits, as the OP is concerned about, no one-on-one comms will be practical (GMRS, FMRS, ham, etc.). If you have GMRS, great. Who you going to talk to? Most citizens have no idea what GMRS is. Or ham radio, for that matter. Most hams aren't active now, when conditions are normal. When we had a local tornado warning (tornadoes are as rare as hen's teeth in this region), I switched on the Weather band, and there was a continuous alert. I switched on the 2 Meter band, and there was nothing but hiss.

But a working receiver -- AM/FM/SW -- would at least allow some access to information, providing the ionosphere is cooperating (and in the case of EMP, the radio itself isn't fried).

EMP can hit in different ways also, a rogue state might try and just put one up that could only cover part of the east (or west coast) or may be under-powered etc...

All of this is also ignoring the possibility of cyber attacks affecting communications, from full blown nothing works to just intermittent cell phone outages.

Ideas exist for many levels of disaster, some pretty detailed, this is one of them, it should give a good idea of a semi-local to regional disaster, the communications for your personal use is up to you (us?) to figure out.

https://irp.fas.org/agency/dhs/fema/ncr.pdf

It's a lot of info and the quantity and quality of the information isn't for everyone, but it's nice to know someone is thinking about it.

I found the timed movement of people out of affected areas very interesting.



Thanks
Joel

 

[alcahuete]

Who are you going to talk to, and what are they going to do for you?

A major earthquake hits. Here I am getting on HF with whomever. Whomever calls the police in my area to tell them I need XYZ. There is no way in hell they are going to drop the rest of the disaster recovery stuff they're doing and come for me. Doesn't work that way. They'll get to me when they get to me. Same goes for the local ham repeaters. Who exacty am I going to contact and why? What are those random hams going to do for me?

What does make sense is having some sort of local communications plan, so people nearby can help each other. In our small-ish town in unincorporated LA County, a very high number of us have GMRS radios as well as a handful of Part 90 frequencies at our disposal. We have two repeaters set up with solar and battery backup. We use the system regularly when it rains or snows (people stuck in the mud constantly) and for neighborhood watch purposes. Works great and it actually gives people a chance to use/test their radio equipment so it isn't just sitting around until an event happens.

EMP? My guns are going to be far more important tools than any radio I own. I have a backpack full of radios I'll grab, but most of what I'm carrying with me is going to be ammo....lots of it.

 

[MUTNAV]

Who are you going to talk to, and what are they going to do for you?

A major earthquake hits. Here I am getting on HF with whomever. Whomever calls the police in my area to tell them I need XYZ. There is no way in hell they are going to drop the rest of the disaster recovery stuff they're doing and come for me. Doesn't work that way. They'll get to me when they get to me. Same goes for the local ham repeaters. Who exacty am I going to contact and why? What are those random hams going to do for me?

What does make sense is having some sort of local communications plan, so people nearby can help each other. In our small-ish town in unincorporated LA County, a very high number of us have GMRS radios as well as a handful of Part 90 frequencies at our disposal. We have two repeaters set up with solar and battery backup. We use the system regularly when it rains or snows (people stuck in the mud constantly) and for neighborhood watch purposes. Works great and it actually gives people a chance to use/test their radio equipment so it isn't just sitting around until an event happens.

EMP? My guns are going to be far more important tools than any radio I own. I have a backpack full of radios I'll grab, but most of what I'm carrying with me is going to be ammo....lots of it.

In my case, HF and AM radio are more for finding out information about the extent of something, not calling for help. Although in alaska in the past it was vital for letting the outside world know about it When a Quake Shook Alaska, a Radio Reporter Led the Public Through the Devastating Crisis, of course everything was different then.

The GMRS situation for you sounds great, basically any jerk can pick up a radio, the contacts that you have that can communicate by radio seems to be whats important to me.

I have to wonder how many people on this thread have a "Family Communications plan" https://www.ready.gov/sites/default...emergency-communication-planning-document.pdf .

I remember at one point a FEMA person doing a class for other FEMA people, asked how many of them had a family communications plan, when not many people raised their hands, he asked what they were even doing there.


Thanks
Joel

 

[smittie]

In my case, HF and AM radio are more for finding out information about the extent of something, not calling for help.

I disagree with regard to HF. In the military, HF is a long haul communication tool. I have communicated two way with NavCommSta Hawaii from locations in Kuwait and Iraq. People with CB radios and decent antenna systems communicate across the country on a regular basis. It is entirely possible to use HF to communicate situation, status and needs. HF is the only reason I consider getting my HAM ticket, in order to tap into that better long haul.

Respectfully,
Smittie

 

[alcahuete]

I disagree with regard to HF. In the military, HF is a long haul communication tool. I have communicated two way with NavCommSta Hawaii from locations in Kuwait and Iraq. People with CB radios and decent antenna systems communicate across the country on a regular basis. It is entirely possible to use HF to communicate situation, status and needs. HF is the only reason I consider getting my HAM ticket, in order to tap into that better long haul.

Respectfully,
Smittie

HF is great. I use it on almost a daily basis to talk around the world. But who am I going to communicate with? That's still the problem I have with HF. So we have an earthquake, I get a hold of a ham in New York....or Italy. What exactly are they going to do to help me? Once I communicate the situation, status, and needs, the first responders are not going to get to me any quicker than they normally would.

The GMRS situation for you sounds great, basically any jerk can pick up a radio, the contacts that you have that can communicate by radio seems to be whats important to me.

Yep, that's pretty much the idea. Anybody from kids to grandma can turn the radio on, talk, and hopefully get a hold of somebody. We have a couple hundred people with radios, and 800 people on the Facebook group. That's for a town with a population of about 2,800-3,000. That's pretty good coverage.

I have to wonder how many people on this thread have a "Family Communications plan" https://www.ready.gov/sites/default...emergency-communication-planning-document.pdf

In this thread, probably a decent amount. The general public though? I'd say it's less than 5% of the general population, and 4% of those have a plan that relies on cell phones.

 

[smittie]

HF is great. I use it on almost a daily basis to talk around the world. But who am I going to communicate with? That's still the problem I have with HF. So we have an earthquake, I get a hold of a ham in New York....or Italy. What exactly are they going to do to help me? Once I communicate the situation, status, and needs, the first responders are not going to get to me any quicker than they normally would.

Depends on what you need. If you need immediate attention, HF probably isn't the right solution. If you need to organize and coordinate food and water from a source outside your immediate region, that enterprising dude in New York is probably just the ticket. I have been involved in efforts to bring food, water, and cooking equipment into disaster areas. In one such case, materials were collected in a town 800 miles away from the community in need. The town collected donations of materials and cash. Hired a couple of trucks and drove the materials in. It all started because someone in the devastated community figured out a way to reach out to a church in the town that provided the help. That individual called about 30 churches before they found one that said we will help.

You're welcome to write it off and discount it. However, communication to the outside world that you're in trouble and need help is a valuable asset. I listen to CB and GMRS when I travel specifically for the possibility that someone in need of help might be reaching out via CB or GMRS. Where I live, there are long stretches of highway that have no cell phone coverage, ever.

Communication is a asset.

 

[MUTNAV]

HF is great. I use it on almost a daily basis to talk around the world. But who am I going to communicate with? That's still the problem I have with HF. So we have an earthquake, I get a hold of a ham in New York....or Italy. What exactly are they going to do to help me? Once I communicate the situation, status, and needs, the first responders are not going to get to me any quicker than they normally would.



Yep, that's pretty much the idea. Anybody from kids to grandma can turn the radio on, talk, and hopefully get a hold of somebody. We have a couple hundred people with radios, and 800 people on the Facebook group. That's for a town with a population of about 2,800-3,000. That's pretty good coverage.



In this thread, probably a decent amount. The general public though? I'd say it's less than 5% of the general population, and 4% of those have a plan that relies on cell phones.

It's the who am I going to communicate with part that I was addressing, with a shortage of information MW and HF are a good way to get information about (for example) how widespread of a power outage exists, whether it has affected other countries etc... Of course this assumes satallite TV doesn't work. Since all of this is kind of along the lines of major communications issues (cell outage or overloaded system) to begin with, it's not a far stretch to consider satallite tv being out.

The MW/HF avenue also lets people get second and third sources of information, for example: in the earthquake in Alaska situation,, It's mentioned that the one newperson had to over-ride information coming out from a different station saying that everything was ok, no more danger of tsunamis or anything, so it was safe to go back to the coast (it wasn't).

Sometimes we focus so much on the equipment that we forget the people that can make a real difference (neighbors and others in the town).

Thanks
Joel

 

[Boombox]

EMP can hit in different ways also, a rogue state might try and just put one up that could only cover part of the east (or west coast) or may be under-powered etc...

All of this is also ignoring the possibility of cyber attacks affecting communications, from full blown nothing works to just intermittent cell phone outages.

Ideas exist for many levels of disaster, some pretty detailed, this is one of them, it should give a good idea of a semi-local to regional disaster, the communications for your personal use is up to you (us?) to figure out.

https://irp.fas.org/agency/dhs/fema/ncr.pdf

It's a lot of info and the quantity and quality of the information isn't for everyone, but it's nice to know someone is thinking about it.

I found the timed movement of people out of affected areas very interesting.



Thanks
Joel

Thank you for posting that PDF link. it looks extensive. I'll read it.

The one from FEMA that I read in 2005 or so was about the 9 point Juan De Fuca quake that is destined to eventually hit the PNW, the region where I live, where FEMA said large sections would be 'toast'. In that PDF they mentioned AM radio particularly, and AM/FM radio in general (in vehicles, especially) as being important to have access to, because local radio in the most affected areas may be out of service because there may not be enough electrical infrastructure left. AM and FM radio from nearby regions less affected or unaffected may still be able to deliver news and information -- at least, that's the theory.

As for a 'family communications plan' mentioned upthread, if you're the only 'family', no plan needed. Makes life simple.

Sounds like Alcahuete's community is pretty tight knit. Community is important when SHTF. Unfortunately, in the US, community is a variable thing, i.e. mobility has made communities fluid enough to where a lot of people have no idea who their neighbors are. Some cities, like mine, have set up neighborhood programs to combat this, with varying degrees of success.

 

[MUTNAV]

Thank you for posting that PDF link. it looks extensive. I'll read it.

The one from FEMA that I read in 2005 or so was about the 9 point Juan De Fuca quake that is destined to eventually hit the PNW, the region where I live, where FEMA said large sections would be 'toast'. In that PDF they mentioned AM radio particularly, and AM/FM radio in general (in vehicles, especially) as being important to have access to, because local radio in the most affected areas may be out of service because there may not be enough electrical infrastructure left. AM and FM radio from nearby regions less affected or unaffected may still be able to deliver news and information -- at least, that's the theory.

As for a 'family communications plan' mentioned upthread, if you're the only 'family', no plan needed. Makes life simple.

Sounds like Alcahuete's community is pretty tight knit. Community is important when SHTF. Unfortunately, in the US, community is a variable thing, i.e. mobility has made communities fluid enough to where a lot of people have no idea who their neighbors are. Some cities, like mine, have set up neighborhood programs to combat this, with varying degrees of success.

Family is important, a close second is friends, some of which I don't even know.... I used to walk a LOT, no car available, and after awhile it seemed like everyone I met "knew" me, just from passing me, I had never said two words to them. But if I saw them in a store or anywhere they knew me and considered me their friend (it's kind of hard to describe, it may be more of a "it's nice to see a friendly face").

My guess is that you have more friends than you know of.

Thanks
Joel

 

[db_gain]

Sadly I think the die is cast, the genie is out of the bottle, and nuclear war is inevitable. What should we expect putin to do if hes crushed in a conventional war and "fears" for the Russian state aka his personal safety, not press the button? You're kidding yourself if you think he wouldn't. Besides, we as of this instance have lunatics/psychopaths in charge of most every nuclear armed nation, what could go wrong? In that light, tube gear, the most likely to survive emp, will be more or less useless unless you can power it as most power plants will be ruined or shut down, and using 12v batteries and an inverter to power tube gear is hugely inefficient. Settling on 12v dc devices might be best. As said cb and gmrs/frs and HAM radio will likely be the only comms available to the non billionaires who want to reset the world and re-imagine it to their liking.. Not that they'd let a crisis like nuclear war go to waste. Remember, in their brave new world you'll own nothing and be happy.