Mid-Atlantic MilAir 2025

Mark

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Seems vid was a fake or unauthorized release. Looked real to me like someone with
cellphone copying ATC screen but these days who knows with AI etc.. Truth from FAA investigation will get out someday.

That sure is dangerous busy traffic space around there. I was always amazed how they kept all
those choppers and DCA traffic nearby separated.Maybe it was an inevitable accident awaiting to happen someday.
Watched a lot of those Airline crash shows where investigators almost always say cause was a series of mistakes
and not just one. :(
OT: Saw pilot vid who says when DCA had CRJ flight switch landing runways to 33 that the approach area near
that runway should have been immediately closed.Why didn't they tell the chopper that?
Like I said seems a series of mistakes.
 

TerryPavlick

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OT: Saw pilot vid who says when DCA had CRJ flight switch landing runways to 33 that the approach area near
that runway should have been immediately closed.Why didn't they tell the chopper that?
Like I said seems a series of mistakes.
Based on everything I have read and watched it just appears the the helo crew did not visually have the CRJ in sight that the tower was talking about...they probably confused it with other traffic and never saw the CRJ. Unfortunate but sometimes the simplest answer is the correct one. Simple solution is to prohibit the helo traffic from crossing the approach path at a meeting altitude, aka the helo at 500 feet crosses the approach path when the commercial aircraft are at 1000 feet or higher. They were too close to the touchdown zone on the approach at their altitude so they became conflicting traffic.
 

Mark

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Based on everything I have read and watched it just appears the the helo crew did not visually have the CRJ in sight that the tower was talking about...they probably confused it with other traffic and never saw the CRJ. Unfortunate but sometimes the simplest answer is the correct one. Simple solution is to prohibit the helo traffic from crossing the approach path at a meeting altitude, aka the helo at 500 feet crosses the approach path when the commercial aircraft are at 1000 feet or higher. They were too close to the touchdown zone on the approach at their altitude so they became conflicting traffic.
Also one aviation expert said tower should have asked chopper do you see traffic at say your 12 o clock position
and not just do you see the CRJ.. Also if routine training flight why was chopper ADSB off. Mechanical or crew choice?
Chopper was supposed to stay at 200 feet and not the 350 feet it was.. Just a whole lot of errors here.
 

krokus

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Based on everything I have read and watched it just appears the the helo crew did not visually have the CRJ in sight that the tower was talking about...they probably confused it with other traffic and never saw the CRJ. Unfortunate but sometimes the simplest answer is the correct one. Simple solution is to prohibit the helo traffic from crossing the approach path at a meeting altitude, aka the helo at 500 feet crosses the approach path when the commercial aircraft are at 1000 feet or higher. They were too close to the touchdown zone on the approach at their altitude so they became conflicting traffic.

Also one aviation expert said tower should have asked chopper do you see traffic at say your 12 o clock position
and not just do you see the CRJ.. Also if routine training flight why was chopper ADSB off. Mechanical or crew choice?
Chopper was supposed to stay at 200 feet and not the 350 feet it was.. Just a whole lot of errors here.
There were two CRJ aircraft, one behind the other. My guess is the chopper saw the first one, not realizing there was another one, that they were supposed to cross behind.
 

MUTNAV

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Based on everything I have read and watched it just appears the the helo crew did not visually have the CRJ in sight that the tower was talking about...they probably confused it with other traffic and never saw the CRJ. Unfortunate but sometimes the simplest answer is the correct one. Simple solution is to prohibit the helo traffic from crossing the approach path at a meeting altitude, aka the helo at 500 feet crosses the approach path when the commercial aircraft are at 1000 feet or higher. They were too close to the touchdown zone on the approach at their altitude so they became conflicting traffic.
I don't know if the altitude thing is possible with the pentagon and any helicopter activity with its heliport...

If you look at where the pentagon is in relationship to the runways on a map, the distance
looks like 3,000 to 4000 feet away. something like 185 feet AGL at a 3 degree glideslope angle. Not including the height of the pentagon (about 70 feet).

The pentagons heliport isn't used much as far as I can tell

Personally when driving by, I was suprised at how low airliners were allowed to get to the top of the pentagon when on approach.

(Let me know of any major math or logic issues with this).
Thanks
Joel
 

TerryPavlick

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Also one aviation expert said tower should have asked chopper do you see traffic at say your 12 o clock position
and not just do you see the CRJ.. Also if routine training flight why was chopper ADSB off. Mechanical or crew choice?
Chopper was supposed to stay at 200 feet and not the 350 feet it was.. Just a whole lot of errors here.
The only traffic for the helo was the one CRJ the previous CRJ had already landed. The helo should have made a left turn to pass behind the CRJ but did not. The winds were favoring runway 33 for landing so that was the best runway...the previous CRJ landed on runway 1 not 33.
Had the helo followed tower instruction to pass behind the CRJ this would not have occurred - and the helo was more maneuverable than a CRJ on its landing approach.
 

TerryPavlick

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I don't know if the altitude thing is possible with the pentagon and any helicopter activity with its heliport...

If you look at where the pentagon is in relationship to the runways on a map, the distance
looks like 3,000 to 4000 feet away. something like 185 feet AGL at a 3 degree glideslope angle. Not including the height of the pentagon (about 70 feet).

The pentagons heliport isn't used much as far as I can tell

Personally when driving by, I was suprised at how low airliners were allowed to get to the top of the pentagon when on approach.

(Let me know of any major math or logic issues with this).
Thanks
Joel
The idea is to either visually separate yourself from the landing traffic (pass behind or plan your crossing so that your speed brings you over the approach path after the aircraft passes you). They could always require the helos to not cross the path of the approach unless at a certain distance from the end of the runway and below a certain altitude versus just trying to squeeze between arrivals.
 

IlikeRF

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Also one aviation expert said tower should have asked chopper do you see traffic at say your 12 o clock position
and not just do you see the CRJ.. Also if routine training flight why was chopper ADSB off. Mechanical or crew choice?
Chopper was supposed to stay at 200 feet and not the 350 feet it was.. Just a whole lot of errors here.

How often are local mil helos ever transmitting ADS-B? From what I've seen ADS-B is off way more than on and mode-S isn't used plenty as well.. Last night was the first time that airframe showed up with mode-S since mid-November. Seems like they only turned on mode-S later in the flight.
 

MUTNAV

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The idea is to either visually separate yourself from the landing traffic (pass behind or plan your crossing so that your speed brings you over the approach path after the aircraft passes you). They could always require the helos to not cross the path of the approach unless at a certain distance from the end of the runway and below a certain altitude versus just trying to squeeze between arrivals.
I get the idea... Just that at the altitudes and distances that we're looking at, it seems pretty tight even when things are going well.

They could always require the helos to not cross the path of the approach unless at a certain distance from the end of the runway and below a certain altitude versus just trying to squeeze between arrivals.

IMHO That would work, as long as it were permanent.

This seems like a good idea to keep in mind, and see if the safety board comes up with the same idea as the solution. We can refer back to it in 6 months or a year and check it.

Thanks
Joel
 

etr37

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From an unrelated board re: last nights mid-air collision, please remove if needed:
So everyone can understand, and avoid speculation.

As a reminder, I'm a USAF vet with ATC experience, a licensed pilot and scored perfect on the ATC entrance exam, only to have my invitation / job offer rescinded when GHWB froze ATC hiring upon taking office.

Setup: AA5342 was on an ILS approach to DCA Runway 1. At the outer marker he asked ATC for a visual approach / circle to land on R33. This is common. The CRJ can land shorter than larger aircraft (R1 is ~6900' long, R33 is 5200' long and the turnoff places them closer to their arrival gate) so the request is not unusual. ATC has the authority to either grant or deny.

PAT25 (the SH-60 Blackhawk) was headed south alongside the Potomac and requested clearance to transit the airport's Class C airspace on a course that would intersect the approaches for both R1 and R33. That clearance was granted.

It should be noted that the 2 events - AA5342 deviating from its approach to R1 and PAT25 transiting the airspace across the approach path - would have created a distraction for the approach controller by invoking 2 events that, while not unexpected, were exceptional with regard to the normal traffic flow.

The controller asked PAT25 if he had visually acquired the CRJ. The helo pilot responded in the affirmative so the controller issued an instruction for the SH-60 to pass behind the jet.

This would have been perfectly fine if PAT25 had, in fact, acquired a visual target that actually was AA5342. In the visual confusion of all the lights in the area, it's clear that what he thought was a CRJ on approach to R33 was, in fact, something completely different.

The resulting error (failure to "see and avoid") on the part of the PAT25 crew resulted in the collision.

Ultimately the NTSB will likely conclude that the "see and avoid" failure was determinant.

However, some logical blame also lies with the controller. With multiple aircraft on final approach, he could easily have refused PAT25's initial request with the instruction to "avoid the Class C". Additionally, rather than pass responsibility for separation to the helo pilot - at night, in congested airspace, with multiple converging targets, he could have "handled" the SH-60 by instructing it to make a shallow left turn which would have put it, with 100% certainty, behind and underneath the CRJ.

Objectively, this is just a tragedy. But all aviation tragedies are rooted in human error, at some point along the way. We should insist that federal authorities work to ensure that procedures - and training - are grounded in common sense and logic and that traffic flow around airports like DCA (which is, at all times, an accident waiting to happen) is closely examined and appropriate remediation steps are taken.
Thanks 4Real for the info. I read a report somewhere this am that the PAT25 crew were using night-vision equipment. Have you heard that? I would imagine that could have some implications.

I haven't heard anything about NVGs, although it wouldn't be unusual for these crews to do so. Depending on type, they can be prone to light saturation which could be distracting.

I heard the plane probably had its collision detection system off because it doesn't work well at low altitudes, but does ATC have any kind of system to warn about an impending collision? They didn't have much time to react to the misunderstanding, but it seems there should have been, in an ideal world, an alert that the problem had not been corrected, or is that beyond the capabilities of the systems in use?

TCAS wasn't "off". It's designed & configured to automatically suppress alerts below 500 feet. If you think about it, it makes sense - their extrapolated course is directly toward the ground / airport, so any aircraft on the tarmac with its transponder on is going to interpreted as a potential collision target.

Yes - ATC radars have similar algorithms built in. Back when it was first implemented we called it the "snitch patch" because the avoidance limitations built in were quite commonly at a more conservative threshold than pilots and controllers were accustomed to, so the software would alert frequently. On the radar playback from last night (actual radar, not ADS-B systems that are common on the internet) you can see the target symbol representing PAT25 start flashing red right before the collision. There is a period of about 7 seconds where the controller's display was alerting, but there was no corresponding action from the controller. Again, he may have just assumed it was a "near miss" since the UH-60 pilot had confirmed visual acquisition.

Why not remove the copters from the equation by not allowing them in final approach air space?

That's a good - and entirely actionable - question.

There have been numerous occasions when I was denied airspace transit by controllers - most commonly at TTN. My guess is that the controller was trying to accommodate the Blackhawk because those flights are a common occurrence and considered routine.

100% my own opinion, it was a bad idea. And it was an especially bad idea to hand off separation to the helo pilot. The whole tragedy is avoided with a simple "PAT25, traffic your 12:00 and 1 mile is a CRJ on final to Runway 33. Turn left 20 degrees." That one basic call and 67 people are alive today.
 

TerryPavlick

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How often are local mil helos ever transmitting ADS-B? From what I've seen ADS-B is off way more than on and mode-S isn't used plenty as well.. Last night was the first time that airframe showed up with mode-S since mid-November. Seems like they only turned on mode-S later in the flight.
Down here in South Jersey they are tracking on ADS-B more than they are not - but it could be to reduce clutter on the radar screen in a high volume environment with lots of helicopters near DC...

this one popped up on my ADS-B screen as I was typing this....I noticed it first on my monitor

1738273124009.png

 

TerryPavlick

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I get the idea... Just that at the altitudes and distances that we're looking at, it seems pretty tight even when things are going well.



IMHO That would work, as long as it were permanent.

This seems like a good idea to keep in mind, and see if the safety board comes up with the same idea as the solution. We can refer back to it in 6 months or a year and check it.

Thanks
Joel
Probably a good solution unless there is an requirement for an emergency crossing over the airfield....better to take a few more minutes than to have what happen last night occur again.
 

TerryPavlick

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From an unrelated board re: last nights mid-air collision, please remove if needed:
Well just a couple of points.....the controller was in the tower not an approach controller. Big difference as the tower controller can visually see what is occurring unlike the radar approach controller who relies on the screen in front of him. The tower controller offered the circle to Runway 33 approach since the winds favored that runway unless I heard the audio incorrectly. The controller is responsible for the traffic in his area of control. He acted based on what I have heard controllers tell pilots for years. He tells the helo that there is commercial traffic on the approach for the runway and the helo confirmed visual contact and that they would maintain separation from the airliner.

For whatever reason - the helo crew hit the airliner....the pilots in the CRJ were busy with the landing procedure with 60 passengers as their concern. If the helo did not really have the CRJ - you cannot blame the controller - since it is recorded at least twice on the audio as the helo confirming visual and would maintain separation. The controller cannot read the mind of the helo pilot/crew - what he heard was a helo had visual contact and they (the helo) would maintain the separation. If the helo did not confirm visual - the controller would have taken other action - a quick 360 north of the approach path - a left turn to a heading or change of altitude.
 

TerryPavlick

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O/T- 1655L- NOAA 57 (DHC-6) off the NJ coast near Monmouth County running large patterns at 700 ft
Probably doing one of these missions

The NOAA De Havilland DHC-6 Twin Otter aircraft supports many missions, including:
  • Coastal and offshore wildlife: The Twin Otter tracks wildlife from the Aleutian Islands to the Atlantic Ocean.
    Coastline mapping: The Twin Otter maps coastlines.
    Marine mammals: The Twin Otter supports airborne marine mammal programs.
  • Hydrology: The Twin Otter supports hydrological programs.
    Remote sensing: The Twin Otter supports remote sensing programs
 

RaleighGuy

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Thats why I said we can stick a pin in it and see what happens in the final report.

Thanks
Joel

Totally agree with @MUTNAV let's wait and see rather than all the good guesses. For those that want to continue to talk about it please continue your discussion in the thread for this disaster. Thank you so much!

 
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