Milwaukee, WI - Police OpenSky radio failure

[tencom]

Elroy is right. This type of system was never made for public safety. There are other digital trunking system beside P25 that work. Pro-voice that system works and a scanner user can't decode the audio not many people complain because that type of system is works in public safety.
Hopefully Milwaukee bought radios with the option to program P25 systems in it. If they can't get their CLOUDY-SKY system working at least they will be able to use something from this failure. Maybe they can get onto the counties new P25 system, whenever that gets going.
Or maybe a miracle will happen and the system will work, but don't hold you breath.

If the OPEN-SKY system is not working why is the MILWAUKEE PD almost 100% on the OPEN-SKY system I haven't seen a PD vehicle in ages that still have a mounted UHF antenna all have a Dual tubular antennas and not seen one officer since about June of this year still carrying a old motorola portable. All observed officers are carrying, the dual antenna one antenna for GPS OPEN-SKY radios. How can one say that the system is not working when so far the evidence is proving otherwise.

The control console problems is a seperate issue and not associated with OPEN-SKY which uses a different modulation scheme. then other conventinal systems

 

[mkescan]

Tencom, can you please please share the proof you have that Milwaukee OpenSky has no problems. You get on everyones case for not having proof opensky has problems even though some of the users of the system have complained here and the media is talking about it.

Also I wish others here would stop saying most people here are only complaining because they won't be able to monitor MPD. Most of us live in Milwaukee and actually care that we are paying for this State of the art system that was suppose to be 100% working years ago and is costing us $$$$$ while the city wants to close down some firehouses and have 1 less firefighter on trucks because they can't afford to staff them.

 

[tencom]

Tencom, can you please please share the proof you have that Milwaukee OpenSky has no problems. You get on everyones case for not having proof opensky has problems even though some of the users of the system have complained here and the media is talking about it.

Also I wish others here would stop saying most people here are only complaining because they won't be able to monitor MPD. Most of us live in Milwaukee and actually care that we are paying for this State of the art system that was suppose to be 100% working years ago and is costing us $$$$$ while the city wants to close down some firehouses and have 1 less firefighter on trucks because they afford can't staff them.

You don,t either offer much evidence of unreliability other then a few examples of reception diffuculties which may fall with-in the 95 percentile contracted guidelines My evidence is this system is srill in service with data service started in 2005 and voice service since 2007 and almost and probably a complete conversion to OPEN-SKY by MPD at this point in time, If this system is not working and laden with problems, the City fathers must be awful dumb to what you and others think is a farce to go on this long. Please offer more evidence of it"s unsuitability, then you provided thusfar iand not use hearsay information

 

[SCPD]

If this system is sooooo great why did it take so long to get users to use it?
If it working great why are there so many complaints?
Got any answers for that tencom?
Why is your information the only 'reliable' info about this system and everyone else's info is hearsay?
Are you a radio tech from general communications? They are the only one that I heard, when i lived up there, that said the system is working fine with no problems.
Hearing users of the system complain about it is not hearsay. The truth hurts don't it. The user's of this system don't like it. It is a waste of money!

 

[mkescan]

You don,t either offer much evidence of unreliability other then a few examples of reception diffuculties which may fall with-in the 95 percentile contracted guidelines Please offer more evidence of it"s unsuitability, then you provided thusfar iand not use hearsay information

There you go again . Please Please stop it...Please.show us YOUR proof, at least a link to something,We all showed plenty of proof.

 

[mkescan]

Hearing users of the system complain about it is not hearsay. The truth hurts don't it. The user's of this system don't like it. It is a waste of money!

I can't tell you how many times my heart pumped really fast when a cop is in foot pursuit or calling for back up and then stops talking for a minute, or keeps cutting out when other officers are trying to get his/her location.Or you hear dispatcher saying several times " you keep cutting out,, whats you location"

I have also heard officers so mad and frustrated that they would swear over the air about the radios.
I heard "damn" "S**t" and even the F word with ing at the end one time.

 

[R8000]

Just accept the fact that OPEN-SKY is real.

Yea, real.

Let's explore the ways Open Sky has been "real" for the city.

SIX + YEARS OVERDUE !!!!
Overbudget
Audio dropouts or "cutting out"
Poor local vendor support (General Communications)
Musical manufactures
Many officer complaints about system performance
Data works fine (Open sky was designed for data), but voice just sucks.

Why the city just doesn't tell Harris/Gencom to pull the thing out, and pack up and leave...I don't know. I am sure Milwaukee 2 Way would be happy to jump in and sell a system that works. Analog or P25.

Now the consoles are just about obsolete, and the system isn't even done yet. nice. Real nice.

I should have sold them some Fisher-Price FRS walkie talkies for $10 million, it would have been cheaper and probably worked better.

Come on Tencom, the RR community awaits your holy answers to all our communications problems.

 

[R8000]

I
Got any answers for that tencom?

I wouldn't hold your breath, he's great at twisting things all around. Kind of like a environment protester, EMF weirdo or a religion freak.

Ask them for facts or accurate data to backup claims, and all you get is rubbish about how it's all everyone elses fault.

 

[JoeyC]

I can't tell you how many times my heart pumped really fast when a cop is in foot pursuit or calling for back up and then stops talking for a minute, or keeps cutting out when other officers are trying to get his/her location.Or you hear dispatcher saying several times " you keep cutting out,, whats you location"

I have also heard officers so mad and frustrated that they would swear over the air about the radios.
I heard "damn" "S**t" and even the F word with ing at the end one time.

One must assume if you are hearing this , you are a party to the system since OPENSKY isn't receivable by scanners. That said, you will find the SAME stuff happening with EDACS, P25, simplex, UHF, whatever the flavor of radio since NOTHING is 100% guaranteed to work when you key-up, moreso when you are scuffling with a suspect and your radio is eating the ground with you. There are radio problems with all types. As mentioned earlier, OpenSky gets the really bad rap because it isn't perfect and the media and you cannot eavesdrop with a scanner. That has your blood boiling, so it is harped on to no end, even though the users have been getting by for YEARS with it instead of returning to prior technologies, which one would assume would happen if it were such a safety issue.

 

[R8000]

One must assume if you are hearing this , you are a party to the system since OPENSKY isn't receivable by scanners. That said, you will find the SAME stuff happening with EDACS, P25, simplex, UHF, whatever the flavor of radio since NOTHING is 100% guaranteed to work when you key-up, moreso when you are scuffling with a suspect and your radio is eating the ground with you. There are radio problems with all types. As mentioned earlier, OpenSky gets the really bad rap because it isn't perfect and the media and you cannot eavesdrop with a scanner. That has your blood boiling, so it is harped on to no end, even though the users have been getting by for YEARS with it instead of returning to prior technologies, which one would assume would happen if it were such a safety issue.

I live no where within range of the new and old Milwaukee systems, sooooo I guess that means I can't monitor it on my bearcat crystal scanner. Oh darn.

But, as a taxpayer in Wisconsin, where state tax dollars are shared with city and county governments, I am sure a few dollars of my taxes have went into this circus called Open Sky. Yea, I am a little upset too that this thing has been dragged out this long, and costs 16 million. Not only as a taxpayer, but as a senior technician for a large 2 way radio provider in Wisconsin, I get a little upset seeing a radio shop swindle and two time customers over, only to hide deep within contracts and fine print....and get away with it. There are honest, and decent radio shops in Wisconsin, then there are some that aren't.

Your right, no radio system works %100, and problems and issues do come up. I am personally involved in building and maintaining 8 counties worth of radio systems in Wisconsin, my credentials are there for knowing what I am talking about.

With that said, there are logical and HONEST ways of deal with unforeseen problems. This Open Sky project has blown all all the rules of being honest down the tubes. There is no reason for this circus to continue. It's clear that M/A Com / Harris / Local vendor can't make this thing work to the customer specs. Why continue to suck money out of the city ? It's only dragging their reputation down along with this Open Sky failure.

Did the city screw up by not hiring a communications consultant to write a spec ? Yup. Should the City have been more forceful in this situation, yes. However, it makes me sick to see M/A Com / local vendor continue to take advantage of the city the way they are. I really really hope the media goes nuts with this, and starts asking questions that make those in the wrong sweat a bit.

So am I upset that I can't listen to them ? Nope, I never could before anyway. Being able to monitor them is irrelevant in this discussion. It's the screwing over the city part that has most users here on RR upset.

 

[mkescan]

One must assume if you are hearing this , you are a party to the system since OPENSKY isn't receivable by scanners.

They have UHF / OpenSky patch for all UHF freqs 24/7 which is how those of us that actually live in Milwaukee can hear the how serious the problem is.

 

[kd8ati]

Re:

One must assume if you are hearing this , you are a party to the system since OPENSKY isn't receivable by scanners. That said, you will find the SAME stuff happening with EDACS, P25, simplex, UHF, whatever the flavor of radio since NOTHING is 100% guaranteed to work when you key-up, moreso when you are scuffling with a suspect and your radio is eating the ground with you. There are radio problems with all types. As mentioned earlier, OpenSky gets the really bad rap because it isn't perfect and the media and you cannot eavesdrop with a scanner. That has your blood boiling, so it is harped on to no end, even though the users have been getting by for YEARS with it instead of returning to prior technologies, which one would assume would happen if it were such a safety issue.

Joey.... I PARTLY agree with what you say. Every system does have its problems. Here in the Detroit metro I monitor all of the systems mentioned above. However I must say that indeed OpenSky is the worst. Living here in Oakland County MI, I know that Opensky has serious issues. The county is trying to get all areas in the county to switch to this system for "interoperability" , in an island of P25. Ironic isnt it? I am one of the lucky ones who has been able to "monitor" OpenSky. As the cities switch over they do not do it all at one time. They do it a few units at a time. During this transition they simulcast on their UHF/VHF freq. The signals are more "digitial sounding" and harder to understand, AND lets not talk about the coverage issues.

I am in Ferndale which is in the southeast corner of Oakland County. The police here regularly chase people into the surrounding counties to the east and south, south being Detroit. Opensky does not guarentee ANY coverage once outside the county. This is a FACT as I have read it on opensky documents. So another worry is the police going into pursuit and getting into Detroit or elsewhere and the police not being able to relay where they are? That sounds good for a foot pursuit which almost always follows a car chase here.

Now lets get into the budget. Oakland County had palnned to have everyone switched by early 2004! Not even half the cities are switched yet! The last budget report I saw which was about a year and a half ago showed the county was already in over $40 Million! God only knows where that figure is at now.

So the next question from some of the Opensky lovers is then why did the county not pull out if there is this many problems? My educated guess be that the county was already to far into the system and had spent to much to back out. The $3,000+/ea portables were bought, the mobiles were bought, the dispatch consoles were also bought.

Now how do I know about some of the coverage issues? Outside of the limited monitoring I do, I ASK! My brother use to be a volunteer firefighter who was on that system. He told me that not only were those systems bad but they were DANGEROUS! He said that you could be in a building and at one point be getting into the sytem fine then take one step and not be able to get in at all. Is this what the firefighters or police for that matter need?? I have also spoke to other users of the system and have had a hard time finding people who think it is better then their old system. I am a volunteer for a radio group under the county Emergency Response & Prepardness so I do have more opportunities to ask people about the system then the regular person.

Just a sa side note... I use to be able to pick up Ferndale PD all the way down in Ann Arobr which is about 45min away. Not they are lucky to get a mile outside their city, which is on the county border.

NOW PLEASE ANYONE TELL ME A STORY OF WHERE IT TOOK 5 YEARS TO INSTALL A P25 OR EDACS SYSTEM???

 

[tencom]

Joey.... I PARTLY agree with what you say. Every system does have its problems. Here in the Detroit metro I monitor all of the systems mentioned above. However I must say that indeed OpenSky is the worst. Living here in Oakland County MI, I know that Opensky has serious issues. The county is trying to get all areas in the county to switch to this system for "interoperability" , in an island of P25. Ironic isnt it? I am one of the lucky ones who has been able to "monitor" OpenSky. As the cities switch over they do not do it all at one time. They do it a few units at a time. During this transition they simulcast on their UHF/VHF freq. The signals are more "digitial sounding" and harder to understand, AND lets not talk about the coverage issues.

I am in Ferndale which is in the southeast corner of Oakland County. The police here regularly chase people into the surrounding counties to the east and south, south being Detroit. Opensky does not guarentee ANY coverage once outside the county. This is a FACT as I have read it on opensky documents. So another worry is the police going into pursuit and getting into Detroit or elsewhere and the police not being able to relay where they are? That sounds good for a foot pursuit which almost always follows a car chase here.

Now lets get into the budget. Oakland County had palnned to have everyone switched by early 2004! Not even half the cities are switched yet! The last budget report I saw which was about a year and a half ago showed the county was already in over $40 Million! God only knows where that figure is at now.

So the next question from some of the Opensky lovers is then why did the county not pull out if there is this many problems? My educated guess be that the county was already to far into the system and had spent to much to back out. The $3,000+/ea portables were bought, the mobiles were bought, the dispatch consoles were also bought.

Now how do I know about some of the coverage issues? Outside of the limited monitoring I do, I ASK! My brother use to be a volunteer firefighter who was on that system. He told me that not only were those systems bad but they were DANGEROUS! He said that you could be in a building and at one point be getting into the sytem fine then take one step and not be able to get in at all. Is this what the firefighters or police for that matter need?? I have also spoke to other users of the system and have had a hard time finding people who think it is better then their old system. I am a volunteer for a radio group under the county Emergency Response & Prepardness so I do have more opportunities to ask people about the system then the regular person.

Just a sa side note... I use to be able to pick up Ferndale PD all the way down in Ann Arobr which is about 45min away. Not they are lucky to get a mile outside their city, which is on the county border.

NOW PLEASE ANYONE TELL ME A STORY OF WHERE IT TOOK 5 YEARS TO INSTALL A P25 OR EDACS SYSTEM???

From the Oakland county Michigan thread




Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Oakland & Roscommon Counties MI
Posts: 419



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Quote:
Originally Posted by radioron231
It is funny how people "hear" that the coverage stinks. When in reality, the coverage is better than the old Motorola system. The OpenSky radio system works in more places for Pontiac than the Motorola system did. Pontiac PD is very happy with their coverage and they sound very good on the OpenSky system. I listen to them every day.

Maybe there are some problems around, but i agree with Radioron. As far as farmington goes, coverage is great, and audio is great. Farmington Fire interior tac on a house fire was so clear, unlike anything ive heard before on other systems. The sound quality imo is excellent. Although its angers me that i cant scan my own city, it is a good system (Faulty... yes, but i hope it can all get fixed or just go with something that is known to work.)
__________________

Not all News Is negative

 

[mkescan]

I am in Ferndale which is in the southeast corner of Oakland County. The police here regularly chase people into the surrounding counties to the east and south, south being Detroit. Opensky does not guarentee ANY coverage once outside the county. This is a FACT as I have read it on opensky documents. So another worry is the police going into pursuit and getting into Detroit or elsewhere and the police not being able to relay where they are? That sounds good for a foot pursuit which almost always follows a car chase here.

Milwaukee PD had a pursuit of armed burglars a few weeks ago (which TV media reported on)
The pursuit ended about 2.5 miles away from City of Milwaukee border and the opensky was dropping out or not working at all.(The area in between the 2 cities is pretty much open fields and 1 or 2 story structures) Then they had foot pursuit of the suspects and 90% of the time they wouldn't answer or they dropped out. So now we have officers chasing armed suspects where they don't know the streets to good and their radios wern't working. At one point nobody knew where the Milwaukee officers on foot were.
Menomonee Falls dispatch which was the city they ended up in said she couldn't understand much the Milwaukee cops were saying. Then MPD had one on the ground at gun point in somebodies yard but the location kept cutting out.

 

[tencom]

Milwaukee PD had a pursuit of armed burglars a few weeks ago (which TV media reported on)
The pursuit ended about 2.5 miles away from City of Milwaukee border and the opensky was dropping out or not working at all.(The area in between the 2 cities is pretty much open fields and 1 or 2 story structures) Then they had foot pursuit of the suspects and 90% of the time they wouldn't answer or they dropped out. So now we have officers chasing armed suspects where they don't know the streets to good and their radios wern't working. At one point nobody knew where the Milwaukee officers on foot were.
Menomonee Falls dispatch which was the city they ended up in said she couldn't understand much the Milwaukee cops were saying. Then MPD had one on the ground at gun point in somebodies yard but the location kept cutting out.

The problem is easy to solve and a problem, that all celluar type systems even P25 have since it is a short range low powered system OPEN-SKY, is a IP based system all that is required is to install repeaters near or beyond the City's borders which will increase the operating range that is one of main advantages of an IP system they can install repeaters in any area even inside buildings where they have reception diffuculties and is one reason when they started using there portables late last year and discovered dead spots that had to be corrected by installing repeators where they had reception problems and is one reason for the long delays because the vendor was trying to save money by installing as few repeators, as they can get away with and still stay with-in the 95% percentile reliability factor that the contract required..

 

[mkescan]

The problem is easy to solve and a problem, that all celluar type systems even P25 have since it is a short range low powered system OPEN-SKY, is a IP based system all that is required is to install repeaters near or beyond the City's borders which will increase the operating range that is one of main advantages of an IP system they can install repeaters in any area even inside buildings where they have reception diffuculties and is one reason when they started using there portables late last year and discovered dead spots that had to be corrected by installing repeators where they had reception problems and is one reason for the long delays because the vendor was trying to save money by installing as few repeators, as they can get away with and still stay with-in the 95% percentile reliability factor that the contract required..

Where did you hear or read "the vendor was trying to save money by installing as few repeators, as they can get away with"

 

[KE4ZNR]

Ok tencom, we get it. M/A Com is paying you to combat any negative statement anyone ever makes about Opensky. Now if only they could pay someone to teach you how to post coherent sentences. Your run-on-no-punctuation-one-thousand word sentences are impossible to read.
Good Golly dude.
Can we put tencom down in the "Opensky is perfect and has no issues ever and can do no wrong" camp and move on?
Marshall KE4ZNR

The problem is easy to solve and a problem, that all celluar type systems even P25 have since it is a short range low powered system OPEN-SKY, is a IP based system all that is required is to install repeaters near or beyond the City's borders which will increase the operating range that is one of main advantages of an IP system they can install repeaters in any area even inside buildings where they have reception diffuculties and is one reason when they started using there portables late last year and discovered dead spots that had to be corrected by installing repeators where they had reception problems and is one reason for the long delays because the vendor was trying to save money by installing as few repeators, as they can get away with and still stay with-in the 95% percentile reliability factor that the contract required..

 

[tencom]

From TENCOM

In the end my point of view will pervail concerning OPEN-SKY, as my detractors, will have to accept defeat.. As they see the handwriting,, on the wall they would rather attack me personally then argue rationally. I will hold back my comments, from now on this issue, until the time that OPEN-SKY technolgy is fully functional here in Milwaukee, which will happen So be forwarned that day will come!

 

[N_Jay]

The problem is easy to solve and a problem, that all celluar type systems even P25 have since it is a short range low powered system OPEN-SKY, is a IP based system all that is required is to install repeaters near or beyond the City's borders which will increase the operating range that is one of main advantages of an IP system they can install repeaters in any area even inside buildings where they have reception diffuculties and is one reason when they started using there portables late last year and discovered dead spots that had to be corrected by installing repeators where they had reception problems and is one reason for the long delays because the vendor was trying to save money by installing as few repeators, as they can get away with and still stay with-in the 95% percentile reliability factor that the contract required..

And just where do they get the additional frequencies from?

 

[R8000]

the vendor was trying to save money by installing as few repeators, as they can get away with and still stay with-in the 95% percentile reliability factor that the contract required..

LOL !!11!!!!1!!

Ok, so let's look at this Mr. Tencom.

So by what your saying, "the local vendor" tried to save a buck by putting just...the...right...amount of repeaters to cover the "95%" coverage promise they made with the city to meet the contract. Hrrmm, when my company builds radio systems, we now have to document this 95% coverage and provide the data to the consulting firm and customer. The last coverage tests we drove, logged us over 3,000 miles on our test vehicle. That's 3,000 miles of driving every road in the county, at a speed the GPS and logging software could keep up at (under 45 mph). Something tells me this was not done, nor ever will be for Milwaukee. The more info i get about this system the deeper the hole gets about the truth on how this project came about, and how the vendor operates. Trying to save a buck, it's not like there is a fleet of yachts that need fuel...er...oh wait...

Ok, so to fix these dead spots, the city could simply drop in some more repeaters, and it's easy to do since it's IP based.

Hrm....

So for a couple of million dollars more, the city could have good coverage ? Yea, lets throw more money at it !!!

Let's throw more money at technology that is 10+ years old, never worked from day one and has no chance in the world of ever working they way they want it to. Nice. Perhaps if only someone engineered the system properly before a single tool was picked up, they wouldn't be in this mess. A slick salesperson from the local vendor to blame ?

I suspect you won't answer this message like you have ignored mine in the past, and you will somehow try to tell us that cellular digital system and vocoders and opensky are all just wonderful. And you will try and make us believe that when a OpenSky radio is keyed, ponies and rainbows, and puppies and stars all come out of the antenna, and everyone is happy ?