Monitoring kenton, boone and Campbell counties

[scannerboy02]

I have been doing some research and I believe (not 100% yet) I have found what the 651xx talkgroups are being used for.


On a Harris radio system (the CVG system is Harris) when a dispatcher selects multiple talkgroups or subscriber radios to talk with the system assigns a temporary talkgroup from a batch of talkgroups (the 651xx talkgroups) set aside for this purpose.


From what I have read these talkgroups have a lower and upper range and are selected by the system in a mathematically sequential order.


This operation (generally referred to as "super grouping" or "dynamic regrouping") is described in the P25 standards and is not specific to Harris but seems to be used more by Harris than other manufacturers.


For us scanner listeners we will need to figure out all the talkgroup IDs being used on the system for this purpose and have them programmed in our scanners in order to make sure we don't miss an incident alert. That or run our scanners in search mode all the time, which I do anyway.

 

[scannerboy02]

CVG FD is currently working a fire alarm response and the 324 'CVG FD Main' talkgroup is operating in Phase 1 mode.

I'm starting to wonder if they patch this talkgroup into an interoperability system of some kind when they have an incident that may require a mutual aid response that's causing it to revert to Phase 1.

 

[W8RMH]

As long as at least one radio on that TG is operating in Phase I all transmissions on that TG will be in Phase I.

 

[scannerboy02]

Right.

The mystery is who's radio is operating in Phase 1 mode that seems to cause this to happen ONLY when an actual incident occurs?

If it's a CVG radio it 'should' be operating in Phase 2, no reason to run Phase 2 on all but a few radios. If it's an outside agency, who is it? No one in NKY is officially running P25 or 800MHz, yet. If it's a Hamilton County or Cincinnati radio I would love to know who has this system programmed.

I know CVG has interoperability systems that allowed access to the old system from both NKY VHF channels and Cincinnati 800MHz talkgroups. I'm wondering if this system is now tied to the new P25 system and when they activate it it's causing the 324 talkgroup to go Phase 1.

This is the kind of stuff I'm interested in, my radio geek side.

 

[KyFireFreak]

Ugh I need a P25 scanner...

Would the patch to the old system be causing this?

As far as dept's in NKy that have 800 radios. All depts that are involved in water rescue and/or NKY TRT have some 800 radios & all EMA vehicles have radios with the Hamilton Co system in them. Wouldn't surprise me if some may have the new CVG system in now.

 

[scannerboy02]

The patch between the EDACS and P25 system is up 24/7 and the talkgroup operates in Phase 2 the majority of the time.

The only time it switches to Phase 1 is when an actual incident occurs and it seems that it's only incidents that could require fire department mutual aid, as it doesn't seem to happen during EMS or minor incidents.

I'm starting to think it has something to do with an interoperability system that dispatch may activate by policy when certain types of incidents are dispatched. Shortly after the incident is terminated the talkgroup returns to Phase 2.

This is a good thing for scanner monitors because you can program the system into a Phase 1 scanner and when you start hearing traffic you know something is happening.

 

[KyFireFreak]

When there's a disaster or large response they are supposed to patch in the VHF "MUTUAL AID" or "BOONE 5"channel to their system for the mutual aid units to communicate. Maybe keep an eye on them and see if their patching through. On the mutual aid channel it would of course be simplex so you'd have to be close.

 

[scannerboy02]

I will give that a monitor, thanks!

I have monitored the CVG Airport talkgroups on the Hamilton County and Cincinnati systems while this occurs and don't hear anything but I believe the respective dispatch centers need to activate the "patch" on the Ohio side for those talkgroups to connect.

If CVG is activating the "patch" to the simplex VHF mutual aid channel it may be working locally and that would be a likely cause.

 

[n8dhw]

Anything you can find out would be greatly appreciated.



In the RFP it states that they will operate some talkgroups in phase 1 and others in phase 2 at the discretion of the system users. System testing will be done in phase 2 only.



Phase 2 radios are automatically backwards compatible for phase 1 systems so if you switch a phase 2 radio to a phase 1 talkgroup/system the radio will work. As part of the P25 requirements, phase 2 talkgroups will revert to phase 1 if a phase 1 only radio affiliates to it. So if a Hamilton County (phase 1) radio switches to a NKY (phase 2) talkgroup that talkgroup will operate in phase 1 mode until the Hamilton County radio drops off the talkgroup.



It is possible to have multiple trunking systems programmed into one radio so the radios could be programmed to operate on the NKY, MARCS, SAFE-T and CVG systems by simply switching channels. The system controllers don't need to communicate. This is actually the 'simplest' way to have interoperability.



The RFP asks for the option to have an ISSI interface that can tie multiple systems together. The ISSI requires extra programming and a good amount of continuous coordination across all involved systems.

That's the issue with interoperability. You can program all those systems into one radio but unless the cops or firefighters are willing to switch talkgroups or Zones for that matter when needed it's pretty pointless. Then you get into the possibility that they may lock Primary Dispatch talkgroups down to there home County site so it won't Roam onto another site to reduce the possibility of overloading a particular Site.


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[n8dhw]

Right.



The mystery is who's radio is operating in Phase 1 mode that seems to cause this to happen ONLY when an actual incident occurs?



If it's a CVG radio it 'should' be operating in Phase 2, no reason to run Phase 2 on all but a few radios. If it's an outside agency, who is it? No one in NKY is officially running P25 or 800MHz, yet. If it's a Hamilton County or Cincinnati radio I would love to know who has this system programmed.



I know CVG has interoperability systems that allowed access to the old system from both NKY VHF channels and Cincinnati 800MHz talkgroups. I'm wondering if this system is now tied to the new P25 system and when they activate it it's causing the 324 talkgroup to go Phase 1.



This is the kind of stuff I'm interested in, my radio geek side.

If you have the capability to run Unitrunker on there system you can see what radio's affiliate with there system.


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[scannerboy02]

Sounds like all users are in the process of transitioning to the new CVG P25 system this week.

They have been doing a lot of radio testing and I just heard them say all but one dispatch position has been completely moved over to the new system and the last position will be moved over as soon as all the new radios are handed out.

 

[scannerboy02]

This is what I have gathered so far.

This is a Phase II system so you will need a P25 Phase II capable scanner to monitor it.

Frequencies
856.0125 - Alt CC
856.7375 - CC
856.9375 - Alt CC/P25 Phase II VC
857.7375 - Alt CC/P25 Phase II VC
857.9375 - Alt CC
858.9375 - Alt CC
859.7375 - Alt CC/P25 Phase II VC

Talkgroups
300 - Main ?
301 - Police ?
302
303
304
305
306
307
308
309
310
311
312
313 - Facilities ?
314
315
316
317
318
319
320
321
322
323
324 - Fire ?
325
326
327
328
329
330
331
332
333
334
335 - Ops 2 ?
336 - Ops 3 ?
337 - OPS 4
338 - OPS 5
339 - OPS 6
340 - OPS 7
341 - OPS 8
342 - OPS 9
343 - OPS 10
344 - OPS 11
345 - OPS 12
346 - ADMIN 2
347 - ADMIN 3
348 - ADMIN 4
349 - ADMIN 5
350 - ADMIN 6
351 - ADMIN 7
352 - ADMIN 8
353 - ADMIN 9
354 - ADMIN 10
355 - ADMIN 11
356 - ADMIN 12
395 - ADMIN ALL CALL
396
397
398
399
65128 - Patch TG
65129 - Patch TG
65130 - Patch TG
65131 - Patch TG
65132 - Patch TG
65133 - Patch TG
65134 - Patch TG
65135 - Patch TG
65136 - Patch TG
65137 - Patch TG
65138 - Patch TG
65139 - Patch TG
65140 - Patch TG
65141 - Patch TG
65142 - Patch TG
65143 - Patch TG
65144 - Patch TG
65145 - Patch TG
65146 - Patch TG
65147 - Patch TG
65148 - Patch TG
65149 - Patch TG
65150 - Patch TG
65151 - Patch TG
65152 - Patch TG
65153 - Patch TG
65154 - Patch TG
65155 - Patch TG
65156 - Patch TG
65157 - Patch TG
65158 - Patch TG
65159 - Patch TG
65160 - Patch TG
65161 - Patch TG

 

[n8dhw]

At least your post here formats better than it did in the MONIX email.


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[scannerboy02]

Looks like the old CVG EDACS system has been turned down.

 

[scannerboy02]

I have noticed the control channel has changed several times for this system over the past few weeks.

Also, 'Police 1' TG:301 has been operating in Phase I mode for the past few days.