Moore to 800...

[2112]

Apparently, the City of Moore has received a multi-megabux Federal Homeland Security Grant, with which they are planning to purchase an 800MHz radio system. (Full text at http://www.ci.moore.ok.us/news/news.htm )

So here's the big question: Moore borders both Oklahoma City and Norman. Oklahoma City is going Pro-Voice, and Norman is Motorola. Which system will Moore choose, and why?

My guess, steeped in real-world experience, with tongue planted firmly in-cheek, is that Moore will select an LTR system to enhance "interoperability", like OKC did when they decided to go with Pro-Voice.

 

[peterjmag]

:lol: You are probably right!

 

[fireant]

Heard from a Moore Officer that they are more than likely going Motorola they have a close relationship with Norman they don't much care for Okc from what I have heard. Plus with Motorola is far more compatible as compared to Okc system which makes no sense to me why Okc went EDACS which the whole idea of the system to be able to communicate easier but we are back at square one with Okc you can patch but often the patches don't work. Lets hope Moore is smarter than Okc and goes Motorola.

fireant

 

[OUAlumni]

Plus with Motorola is far more compatible as compared to Okc system which makes no sense to me why Okc went EDACS which the whole idea of the system to be able to communicate easier but we are back at square one with Okc you can patch but often the patches don't work.

What do you mean when you say that "often the patches don't work"?

 

[fireant]

Often when they patch a Motorola system to the Edacs system they have problems with the patch. The problem I am having with the whole thing is when two officers lost there life due to the time it takes to call their dispatcher and then department B dipatcher has to call there officer is valuble time and we all know seconds can make a big difference in life and death. Okc is making a mistake everybody around them that is trunked is Motorola so they go and purchase Edacs system looks like we are back at square one.They asked for a sales tax increase to fund the new radio system so these would not happen again. The whole purpose of trunked is to make communication more effective. That is just my thought on that lets hope Moore goes the right direction.

 

[OUAlumni]

Often when they patch a Motorola system to the Edacs system they have problems with the patch.

What kind of "problems" are you talking about? I'm still not understanding your skepticism.

Also, what if someone elects to leave the patches on all of the time?

 

[fireant]

The problem is often the patches will loose connection to the other system where in a Motorola system they would have talkgroups that anyone could switch over to. I am not for sure about leaving the patches on I am not that familar with that I am going off what Police Officers have told me about the problems they have seen in patching systems

 

[OUAlumni]

hmm....okay.

 

[KK5FM]

Right now, every highway patrol trooper in the metro has the ability to monitor OKC police comms. If they hear a chase developing on a city street, but near a highway, they have a "heads up" that this chase can wind up on the highway. OKC's brilliant new EDACS system, which will be digital for police and fire, takes away the ability of OHP troopers to hear police comms 24/7. After the system goes in place, their lives could potentially be dependant on an OKC dispatcher to decide if OHP troopers need to be "patched in" during a pursuit. If you have an OKC dispatcher who is a little busy and forgets to push the patch button, a pursuit could blaze right by an OHP trooper stopped alongside the highway, with him or her being none the wiser, (until of course the 25 OKC police cars go roaring by.) Hopefully, the person being chased will not be vindictive and swerve toward the OHP trooper...

 

[OUAlumni]

Well....i am just not so sure that all of the skepticism and paranoia about this situation is necessary. There is so much talk about how nobody will be able to talk to each another and that "non-vote" of confidence is really kind of a slap in the face to the people who work hard putting these systems into place. I don't know any of them, but i'd be willing to bet a LOT of money that all of these ideas and concerns have been discussed between Oklahoma City and OHP. They *do* have a past of working together, you know....remember a news story shortly after the I-40 crash where OHP installed VHF Icom radios in all of the A-M cars to listen/talk with Oklahoma City PD? They just couldn't go out and do that without asking Oklahoma City's permission first and getting that permission granted. I think that there is a good solution in the works and it will be one that will work just as well as if Oklahoma City had gone with Motorola - because it is possible to have it work in that fashion both technologically and procedurally.

 

[crayon]

(until of course the 25 OKC police cars go roaring by.)

lol.

Some amusing mental imagery there ..

 

[K5MAR]

OUAlum, any solution that relys on a third party to decide what the trooper or officer needs to hear has a major flaw from the get-go. We're not criticizing the "people who work hard putting these systems into place", we're criticizing the people who decided what system to buy in the first place. IOW, the politicians! Now, you can say they honestly made the best decision they could, or you can say that they were more influenced by a glitzy presentation or a perceived cost savings, or even a few "backdoor favors", but many people (including the officers on the street and technically-trained, experienced radio techs) see their decision as a mistake.

The interoperability issue is a known problem, and all the good intentions in the world won't make it go away. We'll see just how well it is implimented in OKC, but if it works anywhere near as well as claimed, many of us will be very surprised.

Mark S.

 

[OUAlumni]

OUAlum, any solution that relys on a third party to decide what the trooper or officer needs to hear has a major flaw from the get-go.

I never said to rely on a third party to decide whether the patch is on or not - why is everyone here so sure that a "third party" controlled patch is how it is going to work? I haven't seen any statements from anyone from OKC or OHP to indicate that is the case. Has anyone else? It IS possible to have "always on" patches between the agencies that would work just as well as if they were on the same systems.

Now, you can say they honestly made the best decision they could, or you can say that they were more influenced by a glitzy presentation or a perceived cost savings, or even a few "backdoor favors", but many people (including the officers on the street and technically-trained, experienced radio techs) see their decision as a mistake.

Once again, I haven't seen any reports to indicate that backdoor favors or low bid was the case here. The only people who can comment on why they chose M/A-COM are those who were in the meetings. But I ask everyone this: Is it possible that the other vendors didn't present the best solution for Oklahoma City? After all - this *is* paid for by, and for the benefit of, the citizens of Oklahoma City - not the rest of the state....

As I mentioned before, there are several technological solutions that can marry talkgroups together so that interoperability between OKC and OHP would be the same as if the two were on the same radio system, less the coverage provided by OKC's system, and not require any "third party" intervention.

 

[OUAlumni]

So here's the big question: Moore borders both Oklahoma City and Norman. Oklahoma City is going Pro-Voice, and Norman is Motorola. Which system will Moore choose, and why?

Given this quote from the link to the article you posed on Moore's web site:

"Other grants were also issued to help communities across the State of Oklahoma to complete the I-44 corridor communications system for emergency providers."

I think that it's safe to say that they will be joining the OHP system since there isn't any other radio system that supports emergency providers on a system that covers only the I-44 corridor. I don't know how they are going to achieve good portable radio coverage in Moore, though. I'm not confident that the Norman and OKC sites will do the job. Maybe that's not what they want?

 

[WX5JCH]

Too bad they only seem to care about the "I-44" corridor. Some of us don't live near there and it's a shame to hear the troopers calling in daily that their ww-2 era radios are 10-7 again. Walkie talkies? are they new? We don't go 'em here. If I was a trooper I'd be demanding a new system that is actually state wide.

my $.02...

 

[K5MAR]

OUAlum, any solution that relys on a third party to decide what the trooper or officer needs to hear has a major flaw from the get-go.

I never said to rely on a third party to decide whether the patch is on or not - why is everyone here so sure that a "third party" controlled patch is how it is going to work? I haven't seen any statements from anyone from OKC or OHP to indicate that is the case. Has anyone else? It IS possible to have "always on" patches between the agencies that would work just as well as if they were on the same systems.

Probably because most systems that use the patch setup to interconnect incompatable trunking systems require that the interconnect between the two be enabled when needed. IF, and we don't know what the layout is going to be at this time, there is a "city-wide' talkgroup that is linked fulltime to the state TRS, that would be a help. But that is not how things have normally been done. Us "pessimists" (I prefer "realists") have seen other EDACS systems that were installed with the promise of patchs, and it either wasn't done at all or wasn't done well.

But the whole need for a patch wouldn't exist if OKC had gone with the Moto TRS. The 1/2 dozen or so city TGs could be programmed into the trooper's radios in a scan bank.

Now, you can say they honestly made the best decision they could, or you can say that they were more influenced by a glitzy presentation or a perceived cost savings, or even a few "backdoor favors", but many people (including the officers on the street and technically-trained, experienced radio techs) see their decision as a mistake.

Once again, I haven't seen any reports to indicate that backdoor favors or low bid was the case here. The only people who can comment on why they chose M/A-COM are those who were in the meetings. But I ask everyone this: Is it possible that the other vendors didn't present the best solution for Oklahoma City? After all - this *is* paid for by, and for the benefit of, the citizens of Oklahoma City - not the rest of the state....

I said the less than ethical possibilities were just that, possibilities. I didn't say anybody is guilty of, or has been accused of anything. As I mentioned, MA-Com apparently made the best presentation, better than Motorola's. Nor am I arguing that the radio system is being funded by the taxpayers of OKC. But these days, interoperability IS one of the most inportant considerations when buying a radio system. If you heard the radio comms on April 19th, 1995, you'd know that there was a communications meltdown in the first hours after the bombing. Wouldn't it be nice if everything possible was done to keep that from happening the next time around?

As I mentioned before, there are several technological solutions that can marry talkgroups together so that interoperability between OKC and OHP would be the same as if the two were on the same radio system, less the coverage provided by OKC's system, and not require any "third party" intervention.

It is pretty much a given in technological circles that the more kludges or fixes a system requires to do the job properly, the more likely it is that the system wasn't designed properly in the first place.

Mark S.

 

[fireant]

One of the main reasons Okc went EDACS is they don't want people listening to them no more. What do they have to hide?? I understand on Tac and Detective Frequencies but normal radio traffic thats part of the reason they went that route according to one of the people I know whom is over communications for Okc so scanner listening will be stopped.

 

[OUAlumni]

Too bad they only seem to care about the "I-44" corridor. Some of us don't live near there and it's a shame to hear the troopers calling in daily that their ww-2 era radios are 10-7 again. Walkie talkies? are they new? We don't go 'em here. If I was a trooper I'd be demanding a new system that is actually state wide.

my $.02...

It is unfortunate, however, it has been found that something like 80% of Oklahoma's population lives within 70 miles of I-44, hence the reason to build out the infrastructure in those areas first. I don't disagree with this philosophy since it doesn't make much sense to build out rural areas first, does it? The chance of needing interoperable communications is greatest in the most populated areas.

If the State had a consistent budget to fund a true statewide system, I bet that they would do it in a heartbeat (unless some toad at the capitol would want to have his billy-bob cousin sell the State toilet paper for $200 a roll). If State dollars can't afford to have OHP troopers on the roads or guards in the prisons, I certainly don't expect State dollars to fund a statewide radio system. Limited amounts of grant money will have to do until something can be done to get a budget for radio system infrastructure.

 

[OUAlumni]

Probably because most systems that use the patch setup to interconnect incompatable trunking systems require that the interconnect between the two be enabled when needed.

Do the cities that have done that have the horrible backdrop that OHP and OKC have when it comes to radio communications? (backdrop=I-40 incident). I am normally a "realist" as you are - but I think that in this situation, the right thing may actually be done.

But the whole need for a patch wouldn't exist if OKC had gone with the Moto TRS.

I differ - look at Edmond, Norman, and Shawnee. Their situation in relation to OHP is the *exact same* as it will be between OKC and OHP. These cities use Motorola and have "always on" patches into OHP's system and nothing else. Why don't we talk bad about these cities?

The 1/2 dozen or so city TGs could be programmed into the trooper's radios in a scan bank.

Put "always on" patches between these same OKC talk groups and the OHP system and the net effect is the same.

But these days, interoperability IS one of the most inportant considerations when buying a radio system.

True, however, there is more than one way to solve "the interoperability problem" than via a standards-based system. It is true that it is the best solution is to have a standards-based system, however, when purchasing a system comes down to a cost-benefit analysis - the internal needs of the community are likely considered first.

If you heard the radio comms on April 19th, 1995, you'd know that there was a communications meltdown in the first hours after the bombing. Wouldn't it be nice if everything possible was done to keep that from happening the next time around?

Well.....i'm not so sure that it wouldn't be a melee the next time around. Everybody under the sun is going to try and talk all at once and having them all on one talk group/frequency/whatever is a recipe for disaster. If communications plans follow ICS, having everyone on the same frequency/talk group - or even the same system - becomes unnecessary.

It is pretty much a given in technological circles that the more kludges or fixes a system requires to do the job properly, the more likely it is that the system wasn't designed properly in the first place.

Is Oklahoma City's system designed to meet their needs? You betcha. Was the system designed to interoperate with outside agencies? Yep. It sounds like it was designed fine to me. It will have the same flaws as the OHP system in the end.....

Remember: OHP is to OKC as OHP is to Shawnee/Norman/Edmond. It will all be the same situation on 800 MHz.

Here's my question: Had OKC purchased a Motorola system, looking at the RFP, it would have likely been a P-25 9600 digital system. How would the situation be different? Heck, how would the situation be different even if they had purchased a stand-alone 3600 analog Motorola system? Guess what - the same issues would exist requiring the same technological solutions. Simply having a Motorola system does not solve the world's problems.

I can agree to disagree with everyone here, but I really think that in the end, the right thing will be done.

 

[K5MAR]

I wish I shared your faith.

Definition of faith: firm belief in something for which there is no proof.
(Webster's New Ideal Dictionary)

Mark S.