motorola type/ smartnet and smartzone questions...

[F16F35F14F18]

(1) what is the bare minimum for a smartnet system to operate?
(2) what did a typical smartnet/smartzone/type 2 rack look like (device model numbers, what routers/computer/radios/specialized devices/ present?)
(3) what/were any software components and what did they do? (often called "astro core" on p25, but i dont know what its called in this)
(4) what is the difference between smartzone, smartnet, and type 2 (anything to add beyond this thread: Smartnet vs SmartZone)
(5) how did amss work? how did it select signals? what parameters?
(6)when was type 2/smartzone and smartnet in use? i think ive heard of some in use right now!
(7) what equipment is shown here, beyond what ive identified?
(8)other general information is nice
(9) yes, i used my previous thread a cookie cutter template for this.

 

[F16F35F14F18]

what are the ace and lsb cards

 

[AB5ID]

CPUs killed the radio star.

 

[F16F35F14F18]

CPUs killed the radio star.

? what?

 

[a417]

? what?

it's an RF'ish joke based off the song "Video Killed the Radio star" by the Buggles in '79, was the first video played on MTV in '81.

 

[xmo]

A modern Motorola system similar to what you have pictured has a multiple course training plan that takes weeks and is documented with over 120 manuals comprising a quarter gigabyte.

The one you have pictured is no different except that the training is no longer offered an the manuals were hard copy in 8 1/2 X 11 binders and comprised several shelves full.

Start by acquiring all those binders, read through them, then come back with questions.

 

[F16F35F14F18]

A modern Motorola system similar to what you have pictured has a multiple course training plan that takes weeks and is documented with over 120 manuals comprising a quarter gigabyte.

The one you have pictured is no different except that the training is no longer offered an the manuals were hard copy in 8 1/2 X 11 binders and comprised several shelves full.

Start by acquiring all those binders, read through them, then come back with questions.

hahaha, i dont think i will be getting those binders anytime soon... otherwise i wouldnt ask here

 

[ElroyJetson]

Does anyone have a photo of today's cutting edge version of the site equipment needed to comprise a P25 Phase II system, for comparison?
I'd expect it to be a lot less hardware and a handful of ethernet cables.

 

[xmo]

Here you go.

Smartzone P25 phase 2 zone core, trunked logging recorder, conventional channel gateways, Raven interop, console site routers and switches.

No prime site / voting equipment, no RF equipment, no microwave site transport equipment.

 

[ElroyJetson]

Hmmmm...still a lot more equipment than I was expecting.
I kind of figured that by this point in time, the controller would be a single box device with an ethernet cable leading to each repeater, with links to other sites via whatever transport mechanism is chosen. (Fiber, microwave, whatever.)

But where's the profit in that? Every box they can put in the racks adds thousands to the profit margin!

 

[MTS2000des]

hahaha, i dont think i will be getting those binders anytime soon... otherwise i wouldnt ask here

Do you really think someone who went to MSI training classes decades ago, spent years supporting said systems, is just going to sit down and write out paragraphs on your bullet point questions on a forum? I'll give you a clue: those who know usually consult and charge by the hour, day or per incident. Payment terms are usually net 30.

 

[KevinC]

Here you go.

Smartzone P25 phase 2 zone core, trunked logging recorder, conventional channel gateways, Raven interop, console site routers and switches.

No prime site / voting equipment, no RF equipment, no microwave site transport equipment.

What system release is this?

 

[F16F35F14F18]

Do you really think someone who went to MSI training classes decades ago, spent years supporting said systems, is just going to sit down and write out paragraphs on your bullet point questions on a forum? I'll give you a clue: those who know usually consult and charge by the hour, day or per incident. Payment terms are usually net 30.

that would depend on the individual, and if this technology is still in service ie, if your knowledge still has commercial value. also whats msi, and are those courses still available? i looked into Motorola training courses, but i think they cost around 3000$ *if* i could even get one, and they dont offer it to individuals either i think.

 

[F16F35F14F18]

Hmmmm...still a lot more equipment than I was expecting.
I kind of figured that by this point in time, the controller would be a single box device with an ethernet cable leading to each repeater, with links to other sites via whatever transport mechanism is chosen. (Fiber, microwave, whatever.)

But where's the profit in that? Every box they can put in the racks adds thousands to the profit margin!

same here, i would have thought things would have become more compact.

 

[xmo]

KevinC asked: "What system release is this?"

7 dot 16. It has subsequently been significantly upgraded and is now half of a geo-redundant DSR monster.

 

[MTS2000des]

that would depend on the individual, and if this technology is still in service ie, if your knowledge still has commercial value. also whats msi, and are those courses still available? i looked into Motorola training courses, but i think they cost around 3000$ *if* i could even get one, and they dont offer it to individuals either i think.

You aren't getting a free ride. Sorry.
MSI=Motorola Solutions, Inc.

There are plenty of these legacy systems on the air, and small number of qualified people who still support them. None of them are going to spill all on a hobbyist forum for the benefit of a stranger. Good luck.

 

[mmckenna]

View attachment 148069


(1) what is the bare minimum for a smartnet system to operate?

Central controller and 2 repeaters (one for control channel, one for voice traffic). Would be a pointless system with one voice path, but that is the "minimum"

(2) what did a typical smartnet/smartzone/type 2 rack look like (device model numbers, what routers/computer/radios/specialized devices/ present?)

As has been mentioned, that was a LONG time ago and I don't remember. The repeaters were usually stacked 3 high for the MSF-5000's, that included their respective power supplies.
The Central Controller was a half height cabinet. I recall the card cage and a pair of modems that connected back to the CEB (primary and backup links), along with a dial up modem for administration. I do recall a UPS just for the central controller. May have been more, but that was memory from about 15 years ago before I shut our smoldering pile of leaky capacitors down.

(3) what/were any software components and what did they do? (often called "astro core" on p25, but i dont know what its called in this)

On a SmartNet system, it was all in the central controller and you modemed in to a terminal prompt for administration/subscriber access control.

(4) what is the difference between smartzone, smartnet, and type 2 (anything to add beyond this thread: Smartnet vs SmartZone)

Type 2 was the trunking protocol, there was a Type 1. I think we actually ran 2i.
SmartNet was a basic single site, as I remember.
SmartZone was multisite.

(5) how did amss work? how did it select signals? what parameters?

I had a SmartNet system, so we didn't use AMSS, but as I recall, AMSS was a way for the radio to choose the correct radio site based on signal strength
.

(6)when was type 2/smartzone and smartnet in use? i think ive heard of some in use right now!

Ours was put in around the early 1990's. Probably many in the late 1980s. I've heard that there are still some in use, but they have no doubt been updated since the 1990's. A lot of the Motorola gear back in that time frame was notorious for leaky electrolytic capacitors that would absolutely destroy the circuit boards. When I shut our system down, the central controller was unreliable and would frequently crash because of this, as well as failed memory retention batteries. A real s**t show of a system. I doubt anyone is still running one of those older systems because of that issue.

I e-wasted ours. No one wanted it, no one wanted to take that on. None of the equipment was reliable anymore. Wasn't worth much other than scrap value.

(7) what equipment is shown here, beyond what ive identified?

No idea, some of it looks familiar, but those memories have been long since replaced with much more modern equipment. Your photo looks like a much newer system.

(8)other general information is nice
(9) yes, i used my previous thread a cookie cutter template for this.

These were Motorola's attempt at the Project 16 "standard". Ours was analog and worked OK for a while.
The MSF-5000 repeaters would usually not stay on frequency for very long. The joke was MSF stood for Might Stay on Frequency". Most people that retained their systems upgraded to Quantars.
Towards the end, our MSF-5000's needed realignment about every month, and sometimes that wasn't even enough. I'd often have to take repeaters off line because they became unusable.

Very little in the way of system security, they were easy to hack.
System keys were easily faked.

Ours was analog only. 5 channels, one control channel, 4 voice channels.

I was very glad to see it go.

Any more information is going to be costly and unreliable due to age.

Hopefully you are not seriously thinking about buying one of these things?

 

[F16F35F14F18]

Central controller and 2 repeaters (one for control channel, one for voice traffic). Would be a pointless system with one voice path, but that is the "minimum"

As has been mentioned, that was a LONG time ago and I don't remember. The repeaters were usually stacked 3 high for the MSF-5000's, that included their respective power supplies.
The Central Controller was a half height cabinet. I recall the card cage and a pair of modems that connected back to the CEB (primary and backup links), along with a dial up modem for administration. I do recall a UPS just for the central controller. May have been more, but that was memory from about 15 years ago before I shut our smoldering pile of leaky capacitors down.

On a SmartNet system, it was all in the central controller and you modemed in to a terminal prompt for administration/subscriber access control.

Type 2 was the trunking protocol, there was a Type 1. I think we actually ran 2i.
SmartNet was a basic single site, as I remember.
SmartZone was multisite.

I had a SmartNet system, so we didn't use AMSS, but as I recall, AMSS was a way for the radio to choose the correct radio site based on signal strength
.

Ours was put in around the early 1990's. Probably many in the late 1980s. I've heard that there are still some in use, but they have no doubt been updated since the 1990's. A lot of the Motorola gear back in that time frame was notorious for leaky electrolytic capacitors that would absolutely destroy the circuit boards. When I shut our system down, the central controller was unreliable and would frequently crash because of this, as well as failed memory retention batteries. A real s**t show of a system. I doubt anyone is still running one of those older systems because of that issue.

I e-wasted ours. No one wanted it, no one wanted to take that on. None of the equipment was reliable anymore. Wasn't worth much other than scrap value.

No idea, some of it looks familiar, but those memories have been long since replaced with much more modern equipment. Your photo looks like a much newer system.


These were Motorola's attempt at the Project 16 "standard". Ours was analog and worked OK for a while.
The MSF-5000 repeaters would usually not stay on frequency for very long. The joke was MSF stood for Might Stay on Frequency". Most people that retained their systems upgraded to Quantars.
Towards the end, our MSF-5000's needed realignment about every month, and sometimes that wasn't even enough. I'd often have to take repeaters off line because they became unusable.

Very little in the way of system security, they were easy to hack.
System keys were easily faked.

Ours was analog only. 5 channels, one control channel, 4 voice channels.

I was very glad to see it go.

Any more information is going to be costly and unreliable due to age.

Hopefully you are not seriously thinking about buying one of these things?

right now its more curiosity in how it worked in theory.

 

[F16F35F14F18]

Central controller and 2 repeaters (one for control channel, one for voice traffic). Would be a pointless system with one voice path, but that is the "minimum"

As has been mentioned, that was a LONG time ago and I don't remember. The repeaters were usually stacked 3 high for the MSF-5000's, that included their respective power supplies.
The Central Controller was a half height cabinet. I recall the card cage and a pair of modems that connected back to the CEB (primary and backup links), along with a dial up modem for administration. I do recall a UPS just for the central controller. May have been more, but that was memory from about 15 years ago before I shut our smoldering pile of leaky capacitors down.

On a SmartNet system, it was all in the central controller and you modemed in to a terminal prompt for administration/subscriber access control.

Type 2 was the trunking protocol, there was a Type 1. I think we actually ran 2i.
SmartNet was a basic single site, as I remember.
SmartZone was multisite.

I had a SmartNet system, so we didn't use AMSS, but as I recall, AMSS was a way for the radio to choose the correct radio site based on signal strength
.

Ours was put in around the early 1990's. Probably many in the late 1980s. I've heard that there are still some in use, but they have no doubt been updated since the 1990's. A lot of the Motorola gear back in that time frame was notorious for leaky electrolytic capacitors that would absolutely destroy the circuit boards. When I shut our system down, the central controller was unreliable and would frequently crash because of this, as well as failed memory retention batteries. A real s**t show of a system. I doubt anyone is still running one of those older systems because of that issue.

I e-wasted ours. No one wanted it, no one wanted to take that on. None of the equipment was reliable anymore. Wasn't worth much other than scrap value.

No idea, some of it looks familiar, but those memories have been long since replaced with much more modern equipment. Your photo looks like a much newer system.


These were Motorola's attempt at the Project 16 "standard". Ours was analog and worked OK for a while.
The MSF-5000 repeaters would usually not stay on frequency for very long. The joke was MSF stood for Might Stay on Frequency". Most people that retained their systems upgraded to Quantars.
Towards the end, our MSF-5000's needed realignment about every month, and sometimes that wasn't even enough. I'd often have to take repeaters off line because they became unusable.

Very little in the way of system security, they were easy to hack.
System keys were easily faked.

Ours was analog only. 5 channels, one control channel, 4 voice channels.

I was very glad to see it go.

Any more information is going to be costly and unreliable due to age.

Hopefully you are not seriously thinking about buying one of these things?

the controller was the mtc-3600 with proper cards, yes?

 

[mmckenna]

the controller was the mtc-3600 with proper cards, yes?

No, ours looked different. It was a 3600 baud trunked system, but the controller looked much different than that one.