New MF/LF ham bands - with a catch...

[N4GIX]

Set up a Skype meeting or something similar. If you have a computer projector available for your club meetings, maybe CF would be agreeable to doing a presentation that your club could present on a screen in the meeting room.

Unfortunately, not to mention very oddly, there is no Wi-Fi or internet access at the Emergency Management Center's conference room. There's not even any cellular internet access from inside the conference room! :roll:

I keep a video projector, long HDMI cable, and an extension cord in the trunk of my car. Whenever someone needs it for a presentation, it is available. If I can find relevant videos on You-hoo-Tube, I'll put 'em on a memory card and use my laptop for my presentations.

 

[AK9R]

...there is no Wi-Fi or internet access at the Emergency Management Center's conference room. There's not even any cellular internet access from inside the conference room!

Now, that's some excellent planning. Sounds like a candidate for a cellular repeater.

But, I stray off topic.

 

[scanmanmi]

My rig doesn't go that low but I found an antenna. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWsdaSmWg7E

 

[SCPD]

An interesting video, Scanman.....
.
That's a novel receiving antenna, but I seriously doubt it would be worth much for transmitting. Still.. there have been many unusual antennas for the VLF and ELF's.... like
.
.

The Navy was doing something very similar (as in 'strange') not so long ago when they turned a portion of Wisconsin into the biggest, gee-normous antenna-for-transmitting- ever. It was called Sanguine-
I got a chance to visit Sanguine shortly before the whole thing was scrapp'd.
I was quite impress'd by just what they did to get that system to operate. The physics were the like's of which dazzel'd RF scientists.... passing enormous currents thru the earth... I'll save everyone the physic's lecture....
.

As I recall it operated around 75Hz..... no typo there,- not Kilo, but Hertz -- extremely low frequency stuff.... like 60 cycle AC power frequencies. When comparing low frequency systems and inefficient antennas- Sanguine took the cake. It radiated a whopping 0.0003% of the power running into its "antennas !"
.
Sanguine was supposed to withstand a direct thermonuclear strike, serving as kind' of a 'pager' to submarines to surface for messages over other circuits- its extremely narrow bandwidth limit'd it to simple CW -- at speeds of something like 1 letter per 5 minutes (!)- useless for any communications. It used incredible amounts of power, it was constantly being attack'd in lawsuits by just about everyone... mercifully it went SK ten or so years ago.
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I like to throw out examples like Sanguine and NSS because they show the different mind-set that will be necessary for a ham to be successful at these frequencies...... Highly inefficient antennas, very narrow bandwidths (!) high power, vertical polarization-- no dipoles strung up in trees, no 'phone "CQ DX" .. Guys...lol
.

_________________________________________________________
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Though it was years ago, I did my dissertation in the long waves- and I've never lost my fascination for them.
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......................CF
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.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

That guardrail antenna would probably have a lot of loss from the periodic grounding of the posts. It would be unusual to have a structure ungrounded over that entire length as lightning would be dangerously propagated along it. also the ignition noise would make it only useful at odd hours. But no doubt it works. Might be an interesting experiment to couple a MW AM transmitter into it to see if motorists can receive a decent signal along the entire length.

All this got me to wanting to borrow my friends copy of : The Low and Medium Frequency Radio Scrap Book by Ken Cornell (W2IMB). Unfortunately he has it on a shelf at his summer cottage in the middle of a soon to be frozen lake. I tried to get a copy off the interwebs but rumor is his (W2IMB) estate has it locked up expecting huge royalties for any future reprint.

 

[scanmanmi]

I got a chance to visit Sanguine shortly before the whole thing was scrapp'd..

Wow great. I was going to try to visit the station in Michigan when I went through but got sidetracked at Sawyer AFB. ELF Station Republic, MI | Military History of the Upper Great Lakes

 

[N4GIX]

Now, that's some excellent planning. Sounds like a candidate for a cellular repeater.

Oddly enough, we are pretty much agreed that the conference room was deliberately built as a rather large faraday cage, as we can step into the hallway that runs parallel to the room and back into the entrance vestibule and have excellent cellular phone service!

The presumed rational for this is likely their close connection with Homeland Security. We've asked around of course, but no one has been forthcoming with any real answers.

We can understand the "no WiFi" of course since the county surely wouldn't want anyone to 'leech' off their bandwidth. :roll:

 

[k9wkj]

As I recall it operated around 75Hz..... no typo there,- not Kilo, but Hertz --
.

when i had my 2100ft wire hooked to my sound card i was able to see the 76Hz signal
Im not that terribly far from Clam Lake
and dont forget the Russian ZEVS system that used FSK at 81Hz to 83.3Hz
which im pretty sure i saw as well

 

[dlwtrunked]

An interesting video, Scanman.....
....
As I recall it operated around 75Hz..... no typo there,- not Kilo, but Hertz -- extremely low frequency stuff.... like 60 cycle AC power frequencies. When comparing low frequency systems and inefficient antennas- Sanguine took the cake. It radiated a whopping 0.0003% of the power running into its "antennas !"
...
.

The name Sanguine was dropped well before the effort was decommissioned and it was then just called "Project ELF". It used 76 Hz with 45 Hz backup. I never saw it but have visited to see antennas at Jim Creek, WA (still on 24.8 kHz), Lamoure, ND (still on 25.2 kHz), Cutler, ME (still on 24.0 kHz), and NSS (gone and torn down but was last on 21.4 kHz).

 

[SCPD]

The wavelengths at these ELF frequencies are absolutely mind boggling.
.
The system I saw at Sanguine (strange name, No?.. I never could get a good explanation for its origin- and yes, I know they changed the name to something like Austere-- but Sanguine always stuck with me... )- it looked like a power company's set of high tension pylons...miles and miles of wire-- a "dipole" arrangement that terminated in the ends being ground'd... the return path thru the earth- sort of like a huge fold'd dipole. I joked about what several megawatts of current thru the earth must have on the worms, the gophers .... It (that quip,) fell flat with my (military) hosts.
.
.
I was asked not long ago to model a ELF system for use in space. Here on earth there myriad physical limitations on size... but in space?.. a full size dipole MAY be possible on something like 100Hz-- and with a corresponding bandwidth and efficiency.... "CQ Neptune....".... lol
.
The model never went beyond a brief 'white paper.'
.
.
........................................CF

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

The wavelengths at these ELF frequencies are absolutely mind boggling.
.
The system I saw at Sanguine (strange name, No?.. I never could get a good explanation for its origin- and yes, I know they changed the name to something like Austere-- but Sanguine always stuck with me... )- it looked like a power company's set of high tension pylons...miles and miles of wire-- a "dipole" arrangement that terminated in the ends being ground'd... the return path thru the earth- sort of like a huge fold'd dipole. I joked about what several megawatts of current thru the earth must have on the worms, the gophers .... It (that quip,) fell flat with my (military) hosts.
.
.
I was asked not long ago to model a ELF system for use in space. Here on earth there myriad physical limitations on size... but in space?.. a full size dipole MAY be possible on something like 100Hz-- and with a corresponding bandwidth and efficiency.... "CQ Neptune....".... lol
.
The model never went beyond a brief 'white paper.'
.
.
........................................CF

I think the purpose of that signal was for situation = normal. Thus as long as the signal is present, everything is Okee Dokee. If it goes away, there is a problem.


san·guine
saNGwn/
adjective
adjective: sanguine

1.
optimistic or positive, especially in an apparently bad or difficult situation.
"he is sanguine about prospects for the global economy"
synonymsptimistic, bullish, hopeful, buoyant, positive, confident, cheerful, cheery; informalupbeat

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[SCPD]

Ah !...Sanguine..... I should have had my head in a better space...lol...

When it comes to thermonuclear war, my Sanguine nature see a bloody red conflict.... (smiles) ...not that hopeful, buoyant and positively confident demeanor; the antipode of War... (laffing.)
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_____________________________________________________________________________
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All our major projects are given 'mission' names- you'd think they were chosen with serious, deliberate consideration- scientific, practical, political and.. well- what ever reasons.....
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Hardly....
.
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Last winter's X band 3D radar project was called "Xena" ("X" for X-Band)... this winter's desert project is "Tinkerbell"-----
......"Second star to the right, and straight on till morning"-- I'll leave it to everyone's imagination just what this will be....
.
.
......................................CF

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

Ah !...Sanguine..... I should have had my head in a better space...lol...

When it comes to thermonuclear war, my Sanguine nature see a bloody red conflict.... (smiles) ...not that hopeful, buoyant and positively confident demeanor; the antipode of War... (laffing.)
.
.
_____________________________________________________________________________
.
.
All our major projects are given 'mission' names- you'd think they were chosen with serious, deliberate consideration- scientific, practical, political and.. well- what ever reasons.....
.
Hardly....

.
Last winter's X band 3D radar project was called "Xena" ("X" for X-Band)... this winter's desert project is "Tinkerbell"-----
......"Second star to the right, and straight on till morning"-- I'll leave it to everyone's imagination just what this will be....
.
.
......................................CF

So yes there is that:

. 2.
Heraldryliterary
blood-red.
3.
archaic
bloody or bloodthirsty.

noun
noun: sanguine

1.
a blood-red color.

So,, you are a glass half empty person!!!

Don't; know about Xena X, But I do like to listen to Gina X

Tinker Bell sounds like a guidance system..

 

[ladn]

An interesting video, Scanman.....
.
The Navy was doing something very similar (as in 'strange') not so long ago when they turned a portion of Wisconsin into the biggest, gee-normous antenna-for-transmitting- ever. It was called Sanguine-

Here's relatively easy read about the Sanguine system:

https://www.hep.wisc.edu/~prepost/ELF.pdf

I found the part about needing a certain geologic formation to be interesting.

 

[SCPD]

There is a little 'addendum I should make here....
.
When I show'd this tale I'd written to my friend Barb, she said I was mischaracterizing her.
.
"Lauri, you make me out to be some sort of scoflaw !" she said.,,,,"I didn't mean to be, so-- so- high power'd like Zat !" ....(Barbi has a very pronounced French accent and when she's upset, look out !.... )
.
"I was just using the numbers that you gave me" she continued, "for the power settings."
.
"But Barb" I said- "those were the numbers for MY transmitter- I need'd that high power output for that 1 watt ERP.... not You!"
.
.
.
A long pause.................
.
.
.
"Ohhhhhhhh.........! !" (follow'd by something mutter'd with a heavy accent.... was there also a slight laugh I detected...?)
.
"What WAS I thinking ??" ... but she said that with a twinkle in her voice and a smile on her face.
"No harm done, No?"
.
"No," I replied... "I don't think anyone will know-- or care...."
"By the way, just how much power WERE you using ??... and which antenna was it ???"
"? "
"?"
"?"
"....................! ! ! !................. ".
.
__________________________________________________________________
.
The Epilogue:
.

No wonder she was RST 599 ++20........ !! ! !
.
And those details will forever remain our secret.
.
.
.............................................................CF

 

[N4GIX]

I was asked not long ago to model a ELF system for use in space.

Okay, I've got to ask what precisely the medium of transmission would be? At basically audio frequencies and no atmosphere to transmit sound... :roll:

"In space no one can hear you scream."

With ~1 atom per cm3, there's not enough density for the atoms to transfer any "sound frequency" against another atom.

Here's an interesting experiment with a vacuum bell jar:
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...4A8F4616F60034F29BD34A8F4616F6003&FORM=VRDGAR

 

[SCPD]

A good question Bill... because these are well in the audio frequencies-- but they aren't audio... they are electromagnetic.
.
Actually, when you stop to think about it, we are surrounded by high intensity ELF forces this very moment (or at least I am.... ) - they are in the form of all the AC power lines, power supplies transformers-- 60 cycles--- at home I would add my hair dry'r in there too.
.
Fortunately they are electromagnetic-- In the vacuum of space the conveyance is by photons, unlike audio which is dependent on actual particles to convey the energy ----- I say fortunately for us since the 60Hz hum would drive us all mad in short order if it were audio.....
.
.
As the frequency drops into the extremely low's, the Q of any resonate antenna frequency goes off the charts. Imagine trying to load a 50 foot vertical antenna with a 300 Kilometre wavelength- the loading coil's Q would be unfathomable for any degree of loading efficiency- and the resultant bandwidth so narrow that only the narrowest signal conceivable would be possible. Like the US Navy's Sanguine Project- only CW speeds of fractions of a word per minute were possible.
.
But ! ...... take that same wavelength into space where it is conceivable to string antennas miles and miles long- you open up that bandwidth..... or at least that is that my little paper-study broach'd.
.
Maybe something like this will be in our lifetimes- but space exploration has a lot of high'r priorities- at least those were the kind words attach'd to my work as it was shelv'ed 'somewhere' (aka--- the final closing warehouse scene in the movie 'Raider's of the Lost Ark'... )
.
_______________________________________________
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I have to make an addendum to my (above) addendum.
.
My friend is not that dense... she is just very contrary.

.
Barbi was well aware of the limitations of the 2200 ham band..... A few numbers were just slightly "overlook'd"........
.
.
.
.....................................CF

 

[dlwtrunked]

Okay, I've got to ask what precisely the medium of transmission would be? At basically audio frequencies and no atmosphere to transmit sound... :roll:

"In space no one can hear you scream."

With ~1 atom per cm3, there's not enough density for the atoms to transfer any "sound frequency" against another atom.

Here's an interesting experiment with a vacuum bell jar:
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...4A8F4616F60034F29BD34A8F4616F6003&FORM=VRDGAR

I hope you are jesting and not confusing electromagnetic wave (frequencies) with sound wave (frequencies).

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

There is a little 'addendum I should make here....
.
When I show'd this tale I'd written to my friend Barb, she said I was mischaracterizing her.
.
"Lauri, you make me out to be some sort of scoflaw !" she said.,,,,"I didn't mean to be, so-- so- high power'd like Zat !" ....(Barbi has a very pronounced French accent and when she's upset, look out !.... )
.
"I was just using the numbers that you gave me" she continued, "for the power settings."
.
"But Barb" I said- "those were the numbers for MY transmitter- I need'd that high power output for that 1 watt ERP.... not You!"
.
.
.
A long pause.................
.
.
.
"Ohhhhhhhh.........! !" (follow'd by something mutter'd with a heavy accent.... was there also a slight laugh I detected...?)
.
"What WAS I thinking ??" ... but she said that with a twinkle in her voice and a smile on her face.
"No harm done, No?"
.
"No," I replied... "I don't think anyone will know-- or care...."
"By the way, just how much power WERE you using ??... and which antenna was it ???"
"? "
"?"
"?"
"....................! ! ! !................. ".
.
__________________________________________________________________
.
The Epilogue:
.

No wonder she was RST 599 ++20........ !! ! !
.
And those details will forever remain our secret.
.
.
.............................................................CF

Some where in a distant galaxy, a radio archeologist has finished his night looking over data from his galaxy wide synthetic ELF array. Some numbers catch his eyes as he tears the page from his 3950n Mark V dot matrix printer. He circles them with a pencil and marks "WOW!" in the margin.



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[RFI-EMI-GUY]

I hope you are jesting and not confusing electromagnetic wave (frequencies) with sound wave (frequencies).

There is actually a fine line between electromagnetic and sonic (mechanical) waves. The use if a transducer or antenna determines the media. A typical ultrasound transducer operates around 7.5 MHz, while an ULF antenna radiates EM fields around 75 Hz.

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