New version of Motorola Capacity Plus?

EricCottrell

EricCottrell

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I came across a VHF DMR trunked radio system in the Boston area that I thought was a Capacity Plus system at first, then I saw the Aloha messages and other trappings of a T3 system. So far all I get is an idle channel that acts like a Capacity Plus one. It looks like the system is in setup phase.
DSDPlus FL identifies it as T3nonStd (MOT) with an ID of L5-1. It appears there are two neighbors. Site 2 does not appear to be active, but Site 18 is. The LSN of Site 18 is 363, or LCN of 182, so it appears the site number is in the LCN and not base + offset based like normal T3 systems. This later changed to 365 (LCN 183). I can not hear site 18.

I am getting bursts like this:
Code: 
2025.08.14 22:26:48  Sync:+DMR
2025.08.14 22:26:48  +DMR           slot1         BS DATA       DCC=5  CSBK  ECC/RAS Bcast  Site Pri/SysCode=4 10.0101.00000001  AB;  Neighbor Pri/SysCode/CC=0 10.0101.00000010 1
2025.08.14 22:26:48  +DMR                slot2    BS DATA       DCC=5  CSBK  ECC/RAS Aloha  SysCode=10.0101.00000001  B;  Networked;  Registration req'd
2025.08.14 22:26:48  +DMR           slot1         BS DATA       DCC=5  CSBK  ECC/RAS Aloha  SysCode=10.0101.00000001  AB;  Networked;  Registration req'd;  Ver 1.7.1;  Unsynced TS;  Aligned Timing
2025.08.14 22:26:48  +DMR                slot2    BS DATA       DCC=5  CSBK  ECC/RAS Aloha  SysCode=10.0101.00000001  B;  Networked;  Registration req'd
2025.08.14 22:26:48  SYS_Parms:  SysCode=10.0101.00000001;  Registration req'd;  CSC=0
2025.08.14 22:26:48  +DMR           slot1         BS DATA       DCC=5  CSBK  ECC/RAS Bcast  Site Pri/SysCode=6 10.0101.00000001  AB;  Neighbor Pri/SysCode/CC=0 10.0101.00010010 363  ACTIVE
2025.08.14 22:26:48  +DMR                slot2    BS DATA       DCC=5  CSBK  ECC/RAS Aloha  SysCode=10.0101.00000001  B;  Networked;  Registration req'd
2025.08.14 22:26:48  +DMR           slot1         BS DATA       DCC=5  CSBK  ECC/RAS Aloha  SysCode=10.0101.00000001  AB;  Networked;  Registration req'd;  Ver 1.7.1;  Unsynced TS;  Aligned Timing
2025.08.14 22:26:48  +DMR                slot2    BS DATA       DCC=5  CSBK  ECC/RAS Aloha  SysCode=10.0101.00000001  B;  Networked;  Registration req'd
2025.08.14 22:26:48  SYS_Parms:  SysCode=10.0101.00000001;  Registration req'd;  CSC=0
2025.08.14 22:26:49  Sync: no sync
2025.08.14 22:26:50  Sync:+DMR
2025.08.14 22:26:50  +DMR           slot1         BS DATA       DCC=5  CSBK  ECC/RAS Bcast  Site Pri/SysCode=4 10.0101.00000001  AB;  Neighbor Pri/SysCode/CC=0 10.0101.00000010 1
2025.08.14 22:26:50  +DMR                slot2    BS DATA       DCC=5  CSBK  ECC/RAS Aloha  SysCode=10.0101.00000001  B;  Networked;  Registration req'd
2025.08.14 22:26:50  +DMR           slot1         BS DATA       DCC=5  CSBK  ECC/RAS Aloha  SysCode=10.0101.00000001  AB;  Networked;  Registration req'd;  Ver 1.7.1;  Unsynced TS;  Aligned Timing
2025.08.14 22:26:50  +DMR                slot2    BS DATA       DCC=5  CSBK  ECC/RAS Aloha  SysCode=10.0101.00000001  B;  Networked;  Registration req'd
2025.08.14 22:26:50  SYS_Parms:  SysCode=10.0101.00000001;  Registration req'd;  CSC=0
2025.08.14 22:26:50  +DMR           slot1         BS DATA       DCC=5  CSBK  ECC/RAS Bcast  Site Pri/SysCode=6 10.0101.00000001  AB;  Neighbor Pri/SysCode/CC=0 10.0101.00010010 363  ACTIVE
2025.08.14 22:26:50  +DMR                slot2    BS DATA       DCC=5  CSBK  ECC/RAS Aloha  SysCode=10.0101.00000001  B;  Networked;  Registration req'd
2025.08.14 22:26:50  +DMR           slot1         BS DATA       DCC=5  CSBK  ECC/RAS Aloha  SysCode=10.0101.00000001  AB;  Networked;  Registration req'd;  Ver 1.7.1;  Unsynced TS;  Aligned Timing
2025.08.14 22:26:50  +DMR                slot2    BS DATA       DCC=5  CSBK  ECC/RAS Aloha  SysCode=10.0101.00000001  B;  Networked;  Registration req'd
2025.08.14 22:26:50  SYS_Parms:  SysCode=10.0101.00000001;  Registration req'd;  CSC=0
2025.08.14 22:26:51  Sync: no sync

Occasionally there is an unknown CSBK in the burst.
Code: 
2025.08.15  6:47:42  Sync:+DMR
2025.08.15  6:47:42  +DMR           slot1         BS DATA       DCC=5  CSBK  ECC/RAS Aloha  SysCode=10.0101.00000001  AB;  Networked;  Registration req'd;  Ver 1.7.1;  Unsynced TS;  Aligned Timing
2025.08.15  6:47:42  +DMR                slot2    BS DATA       DCC=5  CSBK  ECC/RAS Aloha  SysCode=10.0101.00000001  B;  Networked;  Registration req'd
2025.08.15  6:47:42  +DMR           slot1         BS DATA       DCC=5  CSBK  ECC/RAS Aloha  SysCode=10.0101.00000001  AB;  Networked;  Registration req'd;  Ver 1.7.1;  Unsynced TS;  Aligned Timing
2025.08.15  6:47:42  +DMR                slot2    BS DATA       DCC=5  CSBK  ECC/RAS Aloha  SysCode=10.0101.00000001  B;  Networked;  Registration req'd
2025.08.15  6:47:42  SYS_Parms:  SysCode=10.0101.00000001;  Registration req'd;  CSC=0
2025.08.15  6:47:42  +DMR           slot1         BS DATA       DCC=5  CSBK  ECC/RAS Aloha  SysCode=10.0101.00000001  AB;  Networked;  Registration req'd;  Ver 1.7.1;  Unsynced TS;  Aligned Timing
2025.08.15  6:47:42  +DMR                slot2    BS DATA       DCC=5  CSBK  ECC/RAS Aloha  SysCode=10.0101.00000001  B;  Networked;  Registration req'd
2025.08.15  6:47:42  +DMR           slot1         BS DATA       DCC=5  CSBK  ECC/RAS Aloha  SysCode=10.0101.00000001  AB;  Networked;  Registration req'd;  Ver 1.7.1;  Unsynced TS;  Aligned Timing
2025.08.15  6:47:42  +DMR                slot2    BS DATA       DCC=5  CSBK  ECC/RAS Aloha  SysCode=10.0101.00000001  B;  Networked;  Registration req'd
2025.08.15  6:47:42  SYS_Parms:  SysCode=10.0101.00000001;  Registration req'd;  CSC=0
2025.08.15  6:47:42  +DMR           slot1         BS DATA       DCC=5  CSBK  ECC/RAS Aloha  SysCode=10.0101.00000001  AB;  Networked;  Registration req'd;  Ver 1.7.1;  Unsynced TS;  Aligned Timing
2025.08.15  6:47:42  +DMR                slot2    BS DATA       DCC=5  CSBK  ECC/RAS Aloha  SysCode=10.0101.00000001  B;  Networked;  Registration req'd
2025.08.15  6:47:42  +DMR           slot1         BS DATA       DCC=5  CSBK  ECC/RAS Aloha  SysCode=10.0101.00000001  AB;  Networked;  Registration req'd;  Ver 1.7.1;  Unsynced TS;  Aligned Timing
2025.08.15  6:47:42  +DMR                slot2    BS DATA       DCC=5  CSBK  ECC/RAS Aloha  SysCode=10.0101.00000001  B;  Networked;  Registration req'd
2025.08.15  6:47:42  SYS_Parms:  SysCode=10.0101.00000001;  Registration req'd;  CSC=0
2025.08.15  6:47:42  +DMR           slot1         BS DATA       DCC=5  CSBK  ECC/RAS Aloha  SysCode=10.0101.00000001  AB;  Networked;  Registration req'd;  Ver 1.7.1;  Unsynced TS;  Aligned Timing
2025.08.15  6:47:42  +DMR                slot2    BS DATA       DCC=5  CSBK  ECC/RAS Aloha  SysCode=10.0101.00000001  B;  Networked;  Registration req'd
2025.08.15  6:47:42  +DMR           slot1         BS DATA       DCC=5  CSBK  ECC/RAS Aloha  SysCode=10.0101.00000001  AB;  Networked;  Registration req'd;  Ver 1.7.1;  Unsynced TS;  Aligned Timing
2025.08.15  6:47:43  +DMR                slot2    BS DATA       DCC=5  CSBK  ECC/RAS [LB=1 CSBKO=57 (?) FID=10 v16=0000 id1=1441792 id2=0]
2025.08.15  6:47:43  39 10 0000 160000 000000
2025.08.15  6:47:43  101110010001000000000000000000000001011000000000000000000000000000000000000000001001010010110010
2025.08.15  6:47:43  SYS_Parms:  SysCode=10.0101.00000001;  Registration req'd;  CSC=0
2025.08.15  6:47:43  +DMR           slot1         BS DATA       DCC=5  CSBK  ECC/RAS Aloha  SysCode=10.0101.00000001  AB;  Networked;  Registration req'd;  Ver 1.7.1;  Unsynced TS;  Aligned Timing
2025.08.15  6:47:43  +DMR                slot2    BS DATA       DCC=5  CSBK  ECC/RAS [LB=1 CSBKO=57 (?) FID=10 v16=0000 id1=1441792 id2=0]
2025.08.15  6:47:43  39 10 0000 160000 000000
2025.08.15  6:47:43  101110010001000000000000000000000001011000000000000000000000000000000000000000001001010010110010
2025.08.15  6:47:43  +DMR           slot1         BS DATA       DCC=5  CSBK  ECC/RAS [LB=1 CSBKO=57 (?) FID=00 v16=0000 id1=1441792 id2=0]
2025.08.15  6:47:43  39 00 0000 160000 000000
2025.08.15  6:47:43  101110010000000000000000000000000001011000000000000000000000000000000000000000001001000011101000
2025.08.15  6:47:43  +DMR                slot2    BS DATA       DCC=5  CSBK  ECC/RAS Aloha  SysCode=10.0101.00000001  B;  Networked;  Registration req'd
2025.08.15  6:47:43  SYS_Parms:  SysCode=10.0101.00000001;  Registration req'd;  CSC=0
2025.08.15  6:47:43  +DMR           slot1         BS DATA       DCC=5  CSBK  ECC/RAS [LB=1 CSBKO=57 (?) FID=00 v16=0000 id1=1441792 id2=0]
2025.08.15  6:47:43  39 00 0000 160000 000000
2025.08.15  6:47:43  101110010000000000000000000000000001011000000000000000000000000000000000000000001001000011101000
2025.08.15  6:47:43  +DMR                slot2    BS DATA       DCC=5  CSBK  ECC/RAS Aloha  SysCode=10.0101.00000001  B;  Networked;  Registration req'd
2025.08.15  6:47:43  Sync: no sync

I wonder if anyone else is seeing systems like this?

73 Eric
 
mtindor

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EricCottrell said:
I came across a VHF DMR trunked radio system in the Boston area that I thought was a Capacity Plus system at first, then I saw the Aloha messages and other trappings of a T3 system. So far all I get is an idle channel that acts like a Capacity Plus one. It looks like the system is in setup phase.
DSDPlus FL identifies it as T3nonStd (MOT) with an ID of L5-1. It appears there are two neighbors. Site 2 does not appear to be active, but Site 18 is. The LSN of Site 18 is 363, or LCN of 182, so it appears the site number is in the LCN and not base + offset based like normal T3 systems. This later changed to 365 (LCN 183). I can not hear site 18.

I am getting bursts like this:
Code: 
2025.08.14 22:26:48  Sync:+DMR
2025.08.14 22:26:48  +DMR           slot1         BS DATA       DCC=5  CSBK  ECC/RAS Bcast  Site Pri/SysCode=4 10.0101.00000001  AB;  Neighbor Pri/SysCode/CC=0 10.0101.00000010 1
2025.08.14 22:26:48  +DMR                slot2    BS DATA       DCC=5  CSBK  ECC/RAS Aloha  SysCode=10.0101.00000001  B;  Networked;  Registration req'd
2025.08.14 22:26:48  +DMR           slot1         BS DATA       DCC=5  CSBK  ECC/RAS Aloha  SysCode=10.0101.00000001  AB;  Networked;  Registration req'd;  Ver 1.7.1;  Unsynced TS;  Aligned Timing
2025.08.14 22:26:48  +DMR                slot2    BS DATA       DCC=5  CSBK  ECC/RAS Aloha  SysCode=10.0101.00000001  B;  Networked;  Registration req'd
2025.08.14 22:26:48  SYS_Parms:  SysCode=10.0101.00000001;  Registration req'd;  CSC=0
2025.08.14 22:26:48  +DMR           slot1         BS DATA       DCC=5  CSBK  ECC/RAS Bcast  Site Pri/SysCode=6 10.0101.00000001  AB;  Neighbor Pri/SysCode/CC=0 10.0101.00010010 363  ACTIVE
2025.08.14 22:26:48  +DMR                slot2    BS DATA       DCC=5  CSBK  ECC/RAS Aloha  SysCode=10.0101.00000001  B;  Networked;  Registration req'd
2025.08.14 22:26:48  +DMR           slot1         BS DATA       DCC=5  CSBK  ECC/RAS Aloha  SysCode=10.0101.00000001  AB;  Networked;  Registration req'd;  Ver 1.7.1;  Unsynced TS;  Aligned Timing
2025.08.14 22:26:48  +DMR                slot2    BS DATA       DCC=5  CSBK  ECC/RAS Aloha  SysCode=10.0101.00000001  B;  Networked;  Registration req'd
2025.08.14 22:26:48  SYS_Parms:  SysCode=10.0101.00000001;  Registration req'd;  CSC=0
2025.08.14 22:26:49  Sync: no sync
2025.08.14 22:26:50  Sync:+DMR
2025.08.14 22:26:50  +DMR           slot1         BS DATA       DCC=5  CSBK  ECC/RAS Bcast  Site Pri/SysCode=4 10.0101.00000001  AB;  Neighbor Pri/SysCode/CC=0 10.0101.00000010 1
2025.08.14 22:26:50  +DMR                slot2    BS DATA       DCC=5  CSBK  ECC/RAS Aloha  SysCode=10.0101.00000001  B;  Networked;  Registration req'd
2025.08.14 22:26:50  +DMR           slot1         BS DATA       DCC=5  CSBK  ECC/RAS Aloha  SysCode=10.0101.00000001  AB;  Networked;  Registration req'd;  Ver 1.7.1;  Unsynced TS;  Aligned Timing
2025.08.14 22:26:50  +DMR                slot2    BS DATA       DCC=5  CSBK  ECC/RAS Aloha  SysCode=10.0101.00000001  B;  Networked;  Registration req'd
2025.08.14 22:26:50  SYS_Parms:  SysCode=10.0101.00000001;  Registration req'd;  CSC=0
2025.08.14 22:26:50  +DMR           slot1         BS DATA       DCC=5  CSBK  ECC/RAS Bcast  Site Pri/SysCode=6 10.0101.00000001  AB;  Neighbor Pri/SysCode/CC=0 10.0101.00010010 363  ACTIVE
2025.08.14 22:26:50  +DMR                slot2    BS DATA       DCC=5  CSBK  ECC/RAS Aloha  SysCode=10.0101.00000001  B;  Networked;  Registration req'd
2025.08.14 22:26:50  +DMR           slot1         BS DATA       DCC=5  CSBK  ECC/RAS Aloha  SysCode=10.0101.00000001  AB;  Networked;  Registration req'd;  Ver 1.7.1;  Unsynced TS;  Aligned Timing
2025.08.14 22:26:50  +DMR                slot2    BS DATA       DCC=5  CSBK  ECC/RAS Aloha  SysCode=10.0101.00000001  B;  Networked;  Registration req'd
2025.08.14 22:26:50  SYS_Parms:  SysCode=10.0101.00000001;  Registration req'd;  CSC=0
2025.08.14 22:26:51  Sync: no sync

Occasionally there is an unknown CSBK in the burst.
Code: 
2025.08.15  6:47:42  Sync:+DMR
2025.08.15  6:47:42  +DMR           slot1         BS DATA       DCC=5  CSBK  ECC/RAS Aloha  SysCode=10.0101.00000001  AB;  Networked;  Registration req'd;  Ver 1.7.1;  Unsynced TS;  Aligned Timing
2025.08.15  6:47:42  +DMR                slot2    BS DATA       DCC=5  CSBK  ECC/RAS Aloha  SysCode=10.0101.00000001  B;  Networked;  Registration req'd
2025.08.15  6:47:42  +DMR           slot1         BS DATA       DCC=5  CSBK  ECC/RAS Aloha  SysCode=10.0101.00000001  AB;  Networked;  Registration req'd;  Ver 1.7.1;  Unsynced TS;  Aligned Timing
2025.08.15  6:47:42  +DMR                slot2    BS DATA       DCC=5  CSBK  ECC/RAS Aloha  SysCode=10.0101.00000001  B;  Networked;  Registration req'd
2025.08.15  6:47:42  SYS_Parms:  SysCode=10.0101.00000001;  Registration req'd;  CSC=0
2025.08.15  6:47:42  +DMR           slot1         BS DATA       DCC=5  CSBK  ECC/RAS Aloha  SysCode=10.0101.00000001  AB;  Networked;  Registration req'd;  Ver 1.7.1;  Unsynced TS;  Aligned Timing
2025.08.15  6:47:42  +DMR                slot2    BS DATA       DCC=5  CSBK  ECC/RAS Aloha  SysCode=10.0101.00000001  B;  Networked;  Registration req'd
2025.08.15  6:47:42  +DMR           slot1         BS DATA       DCC=5  CSBK  ECC/RAS Aloha  SysCode=10.0101.00000001  AB;  Networked;  Registration req'd;  Ver 1.7.1;  Unsynced TS;  Aligned Timing
2025.08.15  6:47:42  +DMR                slot2    BS DATA       DCC=5  CSBK  ECC/RAS Aloha  SysCode=10.0101.00000001  B;  Networked;  Registration req'd
2025.08.15  6:47:42  SYS_Parms:  SysCode=10.0101.00000001;  Registration req'd;  CSC=0
2025.08.15  6:47:42  +DMR           slot1         BS DATA       DCC=5  CSBK  ECC/RAS Aloha  SysCode=10.0101.00000001  AB;  Networked;  Registration req'd;  Ver 1.7.1;  Unsynced TS;  Aligned Timing
2025.08.15  6:47:42  +DMR                slot2    BS DATA       DCC=5  CSBK  ECC/RAS Aloha  SysCode=10.0101.00000001  B;  Networked;  Registration req'd
2025.08.15  6:47:42  +DMR           slot1         BS DATA       DCC=5  CSBK  ECC/RAS Aloha  SysCode=10.0101.00000001  AB;  Networked;  Registration req'd;  Ver 1.7.1;  Unsynced TS;  Aligned Timing
2025.08.15  6:47:42  +DMR                slot2    BS DATA       DCC=5  CSBK  ECC/RAS Aloha  SysCode=10.0101.00000001  B;  Networked;  Registration req'd
2025.08.15  6:47:42  SYS_Parms:  SysCode=10.0101.00000001;  Registration req'd;  CSC=0
2025.08.15  6:47:42  +DMR           slot1         BS DATA       DCC=5  CSBK  ECC/RAS Aloha  SysCode=10.0101.00000001  AB;  Networked;  Registration req'd;  Ver 1.7.1;  Unsynced TS;  Aligned Timing
2025.08.15  6:47:42  +DMR                slot2    BS DATA       DCC=5  CSBK  ECC/RAS Aloha  SysCode=10.0101.00000001  B;  Networked;  Registration req'd
2025.08.15  6:47:42  +DMR           slot1         BS DATA       DCC=5  CSBK  ECC/RAS Aloha  SysCode=10.0101.00000001  AB;  Networked;  Registration req'd;  Ver 1.7.1;  Unsynced TS;  Aligned Timing
2025.08.15  6:47:43  +DMR                slot2    BS DATA       DCC=5  CSBK  ECC/RAS [LB=1 CSBKO=57 (?) FID=10 v16=0000 id1=1441792 id2=0]
2025.08.15  6:47:43  39 10 0000 160000 000000
2025.08.15  6:47:43  101110010001000000000000000000000001011000000000000000000000000000000000000000001001010010110010
2025.08.15  6:47:43  SYS_Parms:  SysCode=10.0101.00000001;  Registration req'd;  CSC=0
2025.08.15  6:47:43  +DMR           slot1         BS DATA       DCC=5  CSBK  ECC/RAS Aloha  SysCode=10.0101.00000001  AB;  Networked;  Registration req'd;  Ver 1.7.1;  Unsynced TS;  Aligned Timing
2025.08.15  6:47:43  +DMR                slot2    BS DATA       DCC=5  CSBK  ECC/RAS [LB=1 CSBKO=57 (?) FID=10 v16=0000 id1=1441792 id2=0]
2025.08.15  6:47:43  39 10 0000 160000 000000
2025.08.15  6:47:43  101110010001000000000000000000000001011000000000000000000000000000000000000000001001010010110010
2025.08.15  6:47:43  +DMR           slot1         BS DATA       DCC=5  CSBK  ECC/RAS [LB=1 CSBKO=57 (?) FID=00 v16=0000 id1=1441792 id2=0]
2025.08.15  6:47:43  39 00 0000 160000 000000
2025.08.15  6:47:43  101110010000000000000000000000000001011000000000000000000000000000000000000000001001000011101000
2025.08.15  6:47:43  +DMR                slot2    BS DATA       DCC=5  CSBK  ECC/RAS Aloha  SysCode=10.0101.00000001  B;  Networked;  Registration req'd
2025.08.15  6:47:43  SYS_Parms:  SysCode=10.0101.00000001;  Registration req'd;  CSC=0
2025.08.15  6:47:43  +DMR           slot1         BS DATA       DCC=5  CSBK  ECC/RAS [LB=1 CSBKO=57 (?) FID=00 v16=0000 id1=1441792 id2=0]
2025.08.15  6:47:43  39 00 0000 160000 000000
2025.08.15  6:47:43  101110010000000000000000000000000001011000000000000000000000000000000000000000001001000011101000
2025.08.15  6:47:43  +DMR                slot2    BS DATA       DCC=5  CSBK  ECC/RAS Aloha  SysCode=10.0101.00000001  B;  Networked;  Registration req'd
2025.08.15  6:47:43  Sync: no sync

I wonder if anyone else is seeing systems like this?

73 Eric
Click to expand...

So you are saying the distinction is that it is not a constant control channel spewing data. It spews in bursts? Interesting. I will say that one of the T3 CAP MAX systems near me has a dedicated data channel for each of its sites, and that data channel pops up periodically on each site and looks just like a CC other than the fact that it isn't constant. In my case it's this system . And if you navigate there, then go to its wiki and then to the Site Research page you'll see where I have the DDCs noted. On the DDcs I'll occasionally see LRRP data for a radio or two, which I never see when monitoring the actual system in Combined CC/VC mode.
 
EricCottrell

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mtindor said:
So you are saying the distinction is that it is not a constant control channel spewing data. It spews in bursts? Interesting. I will say that one of the T3 CAP MAX systems near me has a dedicated data channel for each of its sites, and that data channel pops up periodically on each site and looks just like a CC other than the fact that it isn't constant. In my case it's this system . And if you navigate there, then go to its wiki and then to the Site Research page you'll see where I have the DDCs noted. On the DDcs I'll occasionally see LRRP data for a radio or two, which I never see when monitoring the actual system in Combined CC/VC mode.
Click to expand...
Yes, constant bursts of just the information I noted above. Occasionally I will see a long burst like on other Capacity Plus systems. I suspect CSBKO=57 is similar to the legacy Cap+ status. I already noticed that slot one starts off with 39 00 and slot 2 with 39 01. I think that the 16 may mean Site 1 LCN 6. Site 18 is doing something as the Rest Channel LSN has changed from 363 to 365. Site 18 is not within radio range of my QTH. Since these are paging frequency licenses there is no location data other than the market.

73 Eric
 
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Yes, the ICE system is in process of upgrading to a Tier-3 system to replace the end of life Connect Plus system. With this being Messachusetts, I expect it to be fully operational by year 2374.
 
EricCottrell

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StoliRaz said:
Yes, the ICE system is in process of upgrading to a Tier-3 system to replace the end of life Connect Plus system. With this being Messachusetts, I expect it to be fully operational by year 2374.
Click to expand...
ICE is upgrading to a Capacity MAX system. This appears to be another company's buildout.

73 Eric
 
mtindor

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EricCottrell said:
ICE is upgrading to a Capacity MAX system. This appears to be another company's buildout.

73 Eric
Click to expand...

TIIInonStd (MOT) is Capacity Max. Over in Indiana they have a wide are Con+ system (ERS-OCI) with some Cap+ sites. They are upgrading to Cap Max. In that thread I believe I've seen reports of similar behavior when monitoring -- one moment it's a CC for a CapMax system, next moment it's a Con+ CC, and I guess the voice frequencies can be shared amongst them. Apparently Moto has a pretty elaborate way of allowing the mix of legacy Cap+ / Con+ whilst in the process of updating to CapMax.

Look at this thread - New ERS Tier 3 system - especially post #37.

Mike
 
EricCottrell

EricCottrell

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StoliRaz said:
What frequencies are you getting this on? Downtown, north shore, south shore?
Click to expand...
I am in the process of doing more research. The system belongs to Data Radio Management Company. It is receivable on the North Shore and South Shore. I suspect it is in Boston.

152.5325 DMR T3nonStd (MOT) Site: L5-1 DCC:5 RAS NL:2 (1) 18 (363) Bursts

The same group has another CapacityMAX system that has dedicated control channels.
152.0975 DMR TIIInonStd (MOT) Site:S1-1 DCC 2 NL:6 (123) 7 (143) This is also likely in Boston.
152.5775 DMR TIIInonStd (MOT) Site:S1-6 DCC 1 NL:1 (23) 4 (83) 7 (143) 12 (243)

These are old Paging frequencies so they are licensed by market. It seems most of their users are school busing companies, so it is not very active.

73 Eric
 
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cg

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Electric Boat in Groton CT uses CAP MAX and it is not a continuous Control Channel but is intermittent like Cap+, or XPT, roughly once per second.
Originally DSDPlus was a bit confused but the recordings were submitted to the DSDPlus folks and confirmed as CAP MAX. DSDPlus was updated several years ago to recognize it.

chris
 
EricCottrell

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Thanks for all the comments. I did some more research and was finally able to look at a site with voice traffic. The control channel did not change and the voice traffic went to a different repeater. It is trading off more latency to save power, much like LTR MultiNet can use a continuous status channel for public safety/mission-critical applications versus the regular LTR bursts for ordinary business use.

Data Radio Management Company seems to be a radio system provider for First Student, so the system should get way busier next month. I want to find more of the L5 sites, which I believe are mostly south of Boston to the Cape.

73 Eric
 
EricCottrell

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cg said:
Electric Boat in Groton CT uses CAP MAX and it is not a continuous Control Channel but is intermittent like Cap+, or XPT, roughly once per second.
Originally DSDPlus was a bit confused but the recordings were submitted to the DSDPlus folks and confirmed as CAP MAX. DSDPlus was updated several years ago to recognize it.

chris
Click to expand...
I am surprised the DSDplus FL developer team did not pick up on the message that CapacityMAX uses for the slot status as it serves the late entry function. Unfortunately the system I am monitoring only has Group Calls and no more than two talkgroups active. I assume there would be a message for each active LCN. One question is how other calls are handled.

Code: 
2025.08.20  8:16:08  +DMR           slot1         BS DATA       DCC=2  CSBK  ECC/RAS Tier III GC Grant/LateEntry Tgt=781 Src=17965 ch=552
2025.08.20  8:16:08  +DMR           slot1         BS DATA       DCC=2  CSBK  ECC/RAS [LB=1 CSBKO=34 (?) FID=10 v16=1130 id1=199936 id2=0]
2025.08.20  8:16:08  22 10 1130 030D00 000000
2025.08.20  8:16:08  1 0 100010 0001000 0000100010011 0000000000 1100001101 000000000000000000000000000000001010010111101001
                         CSKBO  FID     LCN 275       Slot1      Slot2 781

I heard some of the users on the Data Radio Management Company system use mostly individual calls so I will check it out in a few weeks.

73 Eric
 
mtindor

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EricCottrell said:
I am surprised the DSDplus FL developer team did not pick up on the message that CapacityMAX uses for the slot status as it serves the late entry function. Unfortunately the system I am monitoring only has Group Calls and no more than two talkgroups active. I assume there would be a message for each active LCN. One question is how other calls are handled.

Code: 
2025.08.20  8:16:08  +DMR           slot1         BS DATA       DCC=2  CSBK  ECC/RAS Tier III GC Grant/LateEntry Tgt=781 Src=17965 ch=552
2025.08.20  8:16:08  +DMR           slot1         BS DATA       DCC=2  CSBK  ECC/RAS [LB=1 CSBKO=34 (?) FID=10 v16=1130 id1=199936 id2=0]
2025.08.20  8:16:08  22 10 1130 030D00 000000
2025.08.20  8:16:08  1 0 100010 0001000 0000100010011 0000000000 1100001101 000000000000000000000000000000001010010111101001
                         CSKBO  FID     LCN 275       Slot1      Slot2 781

I heard some of the users on the Data Radio Management Company system use mostly individual calls so I will check it out in a few weeks.

73 Eric
Click to expand...

Me too. I'm sure that'll be taken care of in the next version ;)
 
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EricCottrell said:
I am surprised the DSDplus FL developer team did not pick up on the message that CapacityMAX uses for the slot status as it serves the late entry function. Unfortunately the system I am monitoring only has Group Calls and no more than two talkgroups active. I assume there would be a message for each active LCN. One question is how other calls are handled.

Code: 
2025.08.20  8:16:08  +DMR           slot1         BS DATA       DCC=2  CSBK  ECC/RAS Tier III GC Grant/LateEntry Tgt=781 Src=17965 ch=552
2025.08.20  8:16:08  +DMR           slot1         BS DATA       DCC=2  CSBK  ECC/RAS [LB=1 CSBKO=34 (?) FID=10 v16=1130 id1=199936 id2=0]
2025.08.20  8:16:08  22 10 1130 030D00 000000
2025.08.20  8:16:08  1 0 100010 0001000 0000100010011 0000000000 1100001101 000000000000000000000000000000001010010111101001
                         CSKBO  FID     LCN 275       Slot1      Slot2 781

I heard some of the users on the Data Radio Management Company system use mostly individual calls so I will check it out in a few weeks.

73 Eric
Click to expand...
Hello,
In my busy CapMAX, I don't see CSBKO=34 FID=16 PDU being used at all on control or payload channels as TG's being used are >1023.

The 'Slot1' and 'Slot2' you have indicated are only 10 bits, this equates to addresses (TG/RID) in the range of 0-1023.
This implies the CapMAX mode of operation is "Advantage Mode". See image text below which is from:
  • "Capacity Max System Planner" document (MN002732A01–AA circa 2016). (page 12-13)
https://imgur.com/SxPymQj

Here is some image text related to the late entry from page 20 of same document:
https://imgur.com/oOavOrF


For those playing along at home, in Eric's post #13, the PDU structure formatting only had the FID as 7 bits not 8 (which had it equal to 8 not 16) and LCN as 13 bits (instead of 12).
Code: 
8:16:08  1 0 100010 00010000 000100010011 0000000000 1100001101 00000000000000000000000000000000 1010010111101001
             CSKBO  FID      LCN 275      Slot1      Slot2 781                                   crc-16 (ECC/RAS)
 
EricCottrell

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thewraith2008 said:
Hello,
In my busy CapMAX, I don't see CSBKO=34 FID=16 PDU being used at all on control or payload channels as TG's being used are >1023.

The 'Slot1' and 'Slot2' you have indicated are only 10 bits, this equates to addresses (TG/RID) in the range of 0-1023.
This implies the CapMAX mode of operation is "Advantage Mode". See image text below which is from:
  • "Capacity Max System Planner" document (MN002732A01–AA circa 2016). (page 12-13)
https://imgur.com/SxPymQj

Here is some image text related to the late entry from page 20 of same document:
https://imgur.com/oOavOrF


For those playing along at home, in Eric's post #13, the PDU structure formatting only had the FID as 7 bits not 8 (which had it equal to 8 not 16) and LCN as 13 bits (instead of 12).
Code: 
8:16:08  1 0 100010 00010000 000100010011 0000000000 1100001101 00000000000000000000000000000000 1010010111101001
             CSKBO  FID      LCN 275      Slot1      Slot2 781                                   crc-16 (ECC/RAS)
Click to expand...
This is interesting and suggests the Capacity Plus type bursts for the control channel is also a Mototurbo only feature.

You are thinking in LSN and not LCN. A 7 bit FID would break the protocol. The specification has the LCN as 12 bits. It would be 12 bits in the initial grant so any extra bits are useless.
1756079753167.png

73 Eric
 
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EricCottrell said:
This is interesting and suggests the Capacity Plus type bursts for the control channel is also a Mototurbo only feature.

You are thinking in LSN and not LCN. A 7 bit FID would break the protocol. The specification has the LCN as 12 bits. It would be 12 bits in the initial grant so any extra bits are useless.
View attachment 189022

73 Eric
Click to expand...

This is out of my league. But I'll ask this question -- should you put too much into ETSI standards when your monitoring a proprietary CAPMAX system. Unless you have the Motorola specifics, you can be missing things / assuming things. Such is the case of simple things like SysCodes. SysCodes for Tier III Standard are different from CAPMAX. There a lot of differences. If a CAPMAX system is running in any kind of half/full CAPMAX mode, things be happening differently.
 
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thewraith2008

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EricCottrell said:
You are thinking in LSN and not LCN. A 7 bit FID would break the protocol. The specification has the LCN as 12 bits. It would be 12 bits in the initial grant so any extra bits are useless.
Click to expand...
In your post 13, you had the FID as 7 bits and LCN as 13 bits.
I realized it was a typo on your part and I just pointed it out for anyone who's following.
 
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Another document worth poking around in:
  • MOTOTRBO Radio Management 2.0 User Guide

Search "advantage" in the document from page 719 to show features that are related to it.
Earlier pages only repeat a bunch about "Toggle Call Priority Level".
 
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mtindor said:
This is out of my league. But I'll ask this question -- should you put too much into ETSI standards when your monitoring a proprietary CAPMAX system. Unless you have the Motorola specifics, you can be missing things / assuming things. Such is the case of simple things like SysCodes. SysCodes for Tier III Standard are different from CAPMAX. There a lot of differences. If a CAPMAX system is running in any kind of half/full CAPMAX mode, things be happening differently.
Click to expand...
That's why poking around some of these Motorola documents (patents included) can help a little to work out stuff.

I'm sure I read in one of them that Syscode is fixed in Advantage mode for each model (Tiny, Small, Large, Huge).
I'll see if I can find reference again.
 
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