Norwich Police Reception Questioned

[jim202]

MY project is $15-25,000. I don't have to replace portables, mobiles, consoles, etc. I would bet that Norwich PD is looking at over a million dollars for a multi channel system with all new subscribe units, new dispatching equipment, antennas, cabling, etc. When all your stuff needs replacement, it will cost more.
I would bet that the ham club system has coverage that is far less than what is acceptable for public safety. Comparing apples and oranges I would say. Not saying that it doesn't work for them but different beast.

chris

I am guessing that you haven't tried to listen to any of the ham repeaters that may be around. Can't speak for what is in your area, as I don't live there. But in many places around the country, the ham repeaters are using commercial equipment that has been taken out of service by different agencies. The ham clubs have gone over the equipment and restored these repeaters back into functional equipment. The are using commercial grade duplexers to combine the receiver and transmit antenna connections to use a single antenna.

Most of the ham repeaters I have used and talked to the technical people about are also using commercial grade antennas and good heliax type transmission line. The repeaters do in many cases put to shame some of the public safety agency repeaters around the country. They have matching or better coverage than some of the public safety radio systems using the same type of radio repeaters.

It all comes down to how well the radio systems are constructed and how well they are maintained.

Let me ask a simple question here. Tell me how many hours a year the police officers receive on the use of their radios and how to use them? Next I will ask how many hours a year these same police officers receive on training and use of their fire arms?

My bet is that if there is more than 3 channels in the radios, a police officer has, that person probably doesn't even know what the channels are. Another issue is if that radio has more than one zone in the radio, that officer probably doesn't even remember how to change zones on the radio. This problem is about the same every place I have been to around the country.

If those of you on here want to bad mouth or complain about how poor this radio system really is, how about providing some true facts about this radio system. Let's not talk speculation or I think facts. Become part of the solution and bring the details to the table. Go talk to people on the police department. Talk with the chief. Let the group know who the radio shop is that is currently servicing the radios. Let us know what brand and model the radios are.

Forgot to mention that there are still radio vendors that sell brand new low band radios. Don't start using that as a reason to dump the use of a low band radio system. Plus it's obvious that you have never used a low band portable. Let me educate you in the fact they will do much better than a mile with a normal antenna that they should be using.

This site doesn't bite, but there sure are some s*** stirrers here that love to wind up the groups. Then they sit back and watch the fir fly.

.

 

[cg]

Are you saying that reception issues are the fault of the officers because they are doing something wrong on the radio and they need more training?? To do what? How to hold the radio above their head to try to get better reception?

I would agree that many ham systems are built and maintained by those who work in the professional radio field. But the purpose and therefore the construction of those systems are different. They are not built for complete coverage but for general coverage. A loss of a signal while going through a neighborhood is simply an excuse to talk about something else on the ham radio for another 10 minutes while the same failure within a public safety system could have more significant ramifications. Will the ham system work from the majority of basements and inside the malls in your town?

As for the low band equipment, I didn't say that there were no vendors only that there are fewer. When you have fewer choices you often have to compromise for what it can do and how much you pay for it.

The simple reality is that there are problems with the "system", it hasn't been fixed by the municipality and they have no solid plans to do so.

chris

 

[MrAntiDigital]

Are you saying that reception issues are the fault of the officers because they are doing something wrong on the radio and they need more training?? To do what? How to hold the radio above their head to try to get better reception?

I would agree that many ham systems are built and maintained by those who work in the professional radio field. But the purpose and therefore the construction of those systems are different. They are not built for complete coverage but for general coverage. A loss of a signal while going through a neighborhood is simply an excuse to talk about something else on the ham radio for another 10 minutes while the same failure within a public safety system could have more significant ramifications. Will the ham system work from the majority of basements and inside the malls in your town?

As for the low band equipment, I didn't say that there were no vendors only that there are fewer. When you have fewer choices you often have to compromise for what it can do and how much you pay for it.

The simple reality is that there are problems with the "system", it hasn't been fixed by the municipality and they have no solid plans to do so.

chris

"cg", I can't speak for most of your statement, but I will speak on your last sentence. That is "it hasn't been fixed by the municipality and they have no solid plans to do so".

I say this, as a citizen of this city that is completely aware of a problem with those police radios should anything seriously happen to an officer or a civilian due to a radio system that was never properly taken care of, I plan to pursue and assist anyone who may be affected by this in any way I can. This can NOT be tolerated by the citizens of this city. With a police administration that knew all along this radio system needed some serious attention. They know very well now as it has even been documented in a local newspaper story.

Somebody better get on the stick and give the citizens of the city, as well as it's police officers the protection they are entitled to.

For those dispatchers that have to switch antennas, radios etc, it shouldn't be that way. Plus trying to maintain their cool in the heat of battle. They have my blessings to. They are the Silent Hero's behind the scene. And in this case, "The Miracle Workers" that somehow try to make it all work.

I had earlier mention that I was contacted by someone capable of repairing the system. Apparently I misunderstood. That someone is involved but just not in that capacity.

If I were a part of that Police administration with this problem going on, I wouldn't be able to sleep at night. Currently there is a new acting Police Chief. I'm sure he is well aware of this issue. As well as I'm sure those cops don't give a damn about interoperability. What they really need is that reliability thing.

 

[MrAntiDigital]

There has been some reports by a few local members of this site what appears to be CB Antennas on two of the NPD antenna sites. Just a simple, quick look observed by a few guys here. All agree that it appears at least one held on by a couple of wooden 2 x 4s.

If that is so, wouldn't that have an affect on that radio system. Would that be considered to be a proper installation for a police department radio antenna ?

This has become a very important issue for me as a citizen here to follow up on. The fact that a newspaper article has already mentioned this makes it that much easier to get answers.

I have been dealing with a few city council members, as well as a local newspaper reporter, over another very serious public safety issue. I think that story is about to come out soon. It is now my intention to follow up with this latest issue as well.

No Police Dispatchers or Police Officers, or their families, should have to be concerned with a police radio system that has been allowed to malfunction as long as this has. As a concerned citizen and taxpayer I have every right to do so. I also don't think it is necessary for the taxpayers to be required to spend a couple million dollars to be with the "in thing" and buy a whole new radio system. Other cities and towns can function perfectly well without it so why couldn't we.

And why does a low band system work so well on 33.66 MHz covering the entire city for the five volunteer fire departments. I live very close to one of their antenna sites that is roughly 300 feet above sea level. Yet I don't see any 2 x 4s holding on what appears to be a CB Antenna there. Why doesn't the Norwich Police have one of their antenna sites there as well.

My only question to the members of the NPD is "has the NPD Union followed up with this through some legal grievance procedures ? If not, why ? This affects the safety of EVERY POLICE OFFICER as well as EVERY CITIZEN they are assigned to protect.

 

[imonitorit]

Here it is. I think the other antenna is for our secondary base which we switched over for the second tone out for Preston when they were with us on 33.66.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[imonitorit]

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[MrAntiDigital]

"imonitorit", thank you for posting that picture. I'm hoping we can get a response from some people here as to how they feel about this police antenna radio set up. "Is it okay, is it NOT okay". I don't have that answer.

I must say, there is no comparison from that picture posted to the antenna site 300 feet above sea level on Plain Hill Rd. Yet a low band radio system (33.66 MHz) operates off that.

I also THINK that the Norwich FD operating on 154.205 MHz operates as well from the site pictured, which I believe to be on Orchard St.

I would be interested in hearing from those site members willing to advise us as to how good (or bad) this set up might be.

I would also like to mention that as I understand it, the police dept also has an antenna site at the Public Works garage on Clinton Ave (?). At that location is a large cell tower, also what appears to be a base mounted CB antenna.

I understand there may also be another antenna site located at the Occum Fire Station.

So which antenna site is actually used by the NPD is a question. As well as the antenna set up with the possible use of a CB antenna.

I am also familiar with a radio service that provided their services from the New Haven/outlying area but that was more than 10 years ago. I wonder would it still be that same radio service company.

 

[jim202]

In looking at the photo supplied for the group here, I see what looks like 4 wooden poles and a small shack. It doesn't seem to have a road going to it. It would help to have a view from the ground of what the antennas look like.

In further comment, the area around those poles is not cleared. This opens up the site to several problems. One is like protection from falling trees around the site. It also does not provide for any protection from a brush fire that might go through the area.

In further comment, use of a wooden pole for a public antenna support might be cheap up front, but it opens up the antenna system to damage from any lightning strike. The big question here is are the antennas even grounded? Normally use of a wooden pole will have a ground wire running down the pole and has a coil stapled to the bottom butt of the pole. Depending on how old the pole is will determine just how good this ground is.

Second point here is whether there probably is no common ground at this facility other than the electrical power feed neutral connection? Lacking of a common ground causes voltage differences between equipment and antenna cables if the facility takes a lightning strike.

Now comes the question of if there is even any surge protection at all at this facility. Not having any surge protection adds to damage from lightning strikes on the power lines, telco lines and antennas.

With the size of the shed there in the photo, one can only take for granted that there is no backup power generator at this facility. How can an agency maintain an emergency public safety radio system without having any backup power? There might be some battery backup inside the shed, but that won't last more than a couple of hours at most. What happens to the radios after any battery backup is depleted?

I am glad I don't live here. The public safety radio system from this site in the photo is not acceptable to support a public safety radio system. Having been in this field for a long many years and having traveled around the country to many many public safety radios sites, I would be embarrassed to say this is what is supporting any public safety radio system.

 

[imonitorit]

I think the City FD repeater is on Plain Hill.

Also, there are many other concerns with this "shack in the woods" setup that I won't get into on here.

Thanks for all your comments, good info.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[imonitorit]

I'm sure the antenna is commercial grade low band. I'm being a little sarcastic referring to it looking like a CB radio antenna.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[MrAntiDigital]

"jim202", I thank you for that very important information that you shared with us here. I hope to share some of that with one of the city council members here in this city. He is also the retired police officer who was quoted in that newspaper article as chasing a suspect down some railroad tracks right behind the police station and the dispatchers not able to hear him.

I have just dumped so much on this guy lately and he has been very good to me in understanding another serious issue here. To think that this problem which has put our police officers as well as the citizens at risk for such a long time could be due to actually just some poor maintance work. A city that is willing to put everybody in harms way just because some simple work needs to be done.

Sir, my appreciation goes out to you for your effort in helping us to solve this very important issue.

"imonitorit" as well. I was always under the impression that the Orchard St site was the primary antenna for the high band fire on 154.205 mhz. I believe that Plain Hill site was always for the low band 33.66 radio.

Together, somehow this very serious radio problem will get taken care of. I just feel so bad for those police officers who are out there getting this poorly function radio system jammed down their throats. For the Dispatchers who are trying to coordinate the dispatching of the fire and police on three different radio frequencies, answering those 911 calls and trying to communicate with those officers out in the streets.

We have many facts both here and through a newspaper article. I hope to push this city leaders right into a corner. GET THIS THING FIXED. Maybe with a new acting Police Chief coming in very shortly, this is the perfect timing.

 

[sefrischling]

AntiDigital,

Norwich has many issues to tackle and the newly installed elected officials by-and-large have no interest in investing the city's infrastructure. Look at the gutting of the schools and reduction in Public Works/Highway departments. Their plan was to reduce taxes and reduce resident burden by slashing the vital services to the city. Rather than attract new residents and businesses through lower taxes, they have increased the flight from the city because no one wants to live in a city with overcrowded and underfunded schools and deal with a city that has stripped it's public works, increasing issues with roads and other infrastructure requirements that attract residents.

The Police Department will not get what it needs under the new elected officials unless something horribly wrong occurs. Crime in Norwich has risen to 34 crimes per square mile, where as the CT average is 22 per square mile, the "Urban Median" in the U.S. is 32.8 per square mile, that includes fun places like Chicago and Detroit ... and the Police Department is understaffed, under equipped and radios are extremely important, but low on the city council's list.

 

[MrAntiDigital]

A member here advised me that there was mention of the Norwich Police receiving $48,828 in grant money to service their radio system back in 2009. He said that post is dated 9-10-2009 on this site.

Also, sometime this week, myself and another member plan to visit these antenna sites and take more pictures.

I've been told that the Radio Service company is really trying to do the best job possible with what they have to work with. Some people have mentioned that here as well. I've also since been told that some of the Dispatchers were "highly commended" in the past for the job they did during a major problem with this radio system.

In working with a few guys from this web site who have been a great help, (particularly "jim202" and "imonitorit") along with one or two of the local city council members, (one a Retired Norwich Police Officer), the plan is to get this very serious matter straightened out ASAP. This week I will also forward an email to those council members about this condition along with that newspaper article.

I am also in direct contact with one of those dispatchers who is also willing to keep me informed. And should a follow up story be required from that newspaper, I am also very familiar with that reporter.

I would also like to add this as well. It pays to be good to people. We never know when our paths might cross later. In this case, for many years I worked indirectly with that dispatcher and police officer. Many years since have passed and we are now reunited and working once again together. I have confidence that together we will succeed

 

[MrAntiDigital]

AntiDigital,

Norwich has many issues to tackle and the newly installed elected officials by-and-large have no interest in investing the city's infrastructure. Look at the gutting of the schools and reduction in Public Works/Highway departments. Their plan was to reduce taxes and reduce resident burden by slashing the vital services to the city. Rather than attract new residents and businesses through lower taxes, they have increased the flight from the city because no one wants to live in a city with overcrowded and underfunded schools and deal with a city that has stripped it's public works, increasing issues with roads and other infrastructure requirements that attract residents.

The Police Department will not get what it needs under the new elected officials unless something horribly wrong occurs. Crime in Norwich has risen to 34 crimes per square mile, where as the CT average is 22 per square mile, the "Urban Median" in the U.S. is 32.8 per square mile, that includes fun places like Chicago and Detroit ... and the Police Department is understaffed, under equipped and radios are extremely important, but low on the city council's list.

Sir, I can only report to you at this time that as a resident and taxpayer, I plan to do whatever I can to improve the police radio system in this city. Norwich really isn't much different than any other city in Connecticut. It has its problems just like all the rest, including budget issues.

But some things just need to be placed on a higher prioriity than others. As an example, Norwich has spent way too much on fire apparatus. Norwich has more fire apparatus than the City of New Haven or Hartford. By comparison, those much larger cities enjoy a better insurance rating through an outfit called "Insurance Services Office", aka ISO. They set the standard for what it cost people for their insurance within a particular city or town based on their fire protection. When they set an insurance rating they take everything into consideration. This rating has a huge impact on the amount of money that a company or industry must pay for it's yearly insurance cost. It affects residents as well.

Both New Haven and Hartford enjoy a Class 1 rating. Norwich is a Class 4. So despite the millions of extra dollars that Norwich has spent on fire apparatus alone, it has not improved the insurance rating for this city. Then add to that just this past January, $800,000 was spent to buy 100 air pacts. Hartford or New Haven doesn't spend that much on air packs. In addition, that cost was for only four of it's six separate fire departments within the Norwich city limits.

So Norwich wonders why it has no money. Currently, the council members I am working with are starting to understand and maybe learn from the mistakes of the past. When a place like Milford, Ct, also a Class 1 Department, can operate its fire department, covering a population of about 53,000 people with 6 pumpers, 1 ladder, and 2 medic units, why should a city like Norwich need to spend millions more to buy 15-20 pieces of fire apparatus, maybe more, to cover a population of about 40,000 people.

Then they wonder why they have no money left to provide our police officers with radios that they can depend on.

I consider it now part of my job to focus these city officials on what are the real priorities and the problems they inherited. Police radios that work are one of those very high priorities. Having four or five times the number of fire trucks required is NOT. Running at an average cost today of three quarter to one million dollars each. That's a lot of money. I'm sure enough money to take care of these police radio problems.

The cooperation I have received over the last few months from many of these city officials has been very good. I think some recent articles in a local newspaper seem to point that out. But the work is nowhere finished. Besides the local politicians, the local people need to be educated as well. They need to learn what really is important to their own safety, as well as their pocket books.

Interesting as well, I've been shown facts that New London is the 56th most dangerous city in the U.S. Wow, where does that put a few other Connecticut cities like Bridgeport etc. We got ourselves some tough streets here in some of these Connecticut cities. Those streets of Chicago, Detroit, Philly, New York, Newark, or Washington, D.C. ain't got nothin' on us.

"sefrischling", I certainly appreciate the facts you stated about the crime rate. That is very important information but I would be very interested in where we can find that information to confirm it.

 

[sefrischling]

According to the most recent crime states, the 56th most dangerous city in the United States is Springfield, Massachusetts, Hartford comes in at #53, New Haven comes in at #60, and Bridgeport #96.

The year old Patch story, like many Patch stories, used unvetted data, as The Patch doesn't tend to use professional journalists and many of it's "reporters" are not paid journalists. AOL started The Patch with good viable intentions, found it was a money loser, then just hasn't killed it off yet, instead relying largely on 'volunteer reporters.'

New London however was #35 in 2014 for dangerous cities per capita.

 

[MFCJR]

I did not realize Norwich had that many fire trucks. New Britain with a population of 70,000 runs with six engines and two ladder trucks. No more rescue truck. Norwich should look at what Rocky Hill is doing. They are buying new trucks but cutting down on the amount they now run. They are getting just what they need to do the job and also save the town money.

 

[MrAntiDigital]

MFCJR, thank you with your report on New Britain as well. Just about every city that I know of despite being larger than Norwich has LESS pieces of fire apparatus. A huge expense for any city without buying extras.

"Scf...." a very good long time friend of mine gave me that crime static for New London. But where can we find more reliable crime statics as you reported earlier.

So how about you help us all find those numbers. Can you tell us exactly where you got those crime figures you reported to us earlier here. Regardless of Springfield or New Haven, right now Norwich crime figures and where you got them is what is needed here. Where can we find those numbers that you reported earlier to us.

 

[sefrischling]

AntiDigi

20+ years of covering news as a professional journalist. I always keep current numbers handy for my own information. Old and bad data is irritating.

That said ... Norwich will never unify its East Great Plain, Yantic, Taftville, Laurel Hill and Occum's vollie FDs with the City's Paid FD. Just won't happen. I live in East Lyme and we have two independent Fire Departments with paid staff and vollies, look at Waterford with it's Five FDs , and all the FDs in Groton ... hell Groton has a city within a town, and three independent police departments, that when it comes to radios (to stay on topic) are on 800mhz, VHF and UHF and communicate via the low band hotline. This is how Connecticut seems to function ... or not function.

The spat between the five vollie FDs and the city's career FD is at this point irreversible in Norwich.

 

[MrAntiDigital]

Sir, for whatever it is worth, as a journalist I would guess that it would be up to you to report the news just as it is without expressing your opinion on any particular subject.

I will advise you that over the last few months I have been forwarding some very detailed information on some of the more serious incidents that have gone on in the Norwich area to a local newspaper reporter. I expect that story to be reported very shortly.

If after these incidents are reported as I have told them to this reporter, Norwich Officials refuse to change their policies, I expect at some point the city could be held liable putting the city at fault for not acting on some of these incidents. Once these stories come out it will then become public knowledge with a city responsible if something goes wrong.

I believe that even a few of the city politicians realize that. It just can not continue to function as it has been.

I can't predict the future so at this point I can not agree or disagree with you. But I think I can predict the future if something does go wrong.

And for those who do not understand there are NO Plans to do away with any volunteer firefighters or career firefighters for that matter.

Just try not to get too upset over something you may not be too familiar with at this time. If you live in Norwich or have family members or close friends living or working there, it could affect them. It will hopefully work out for everybody if the city does the right thing. After this story is out, I hope to then work on improving the radio system for those police officers. The citizens should benefit in both cases.

Glad I was able to provide you with a sneak preview. By the way, when I first started this I was wrongly accused of being "coached". I did this totally on my own in fact at first nobody wanted me to do it. But I didn't listen and went ahead and did it anyway.

 

[MFCJR]

To be fair New Britain is about 13 square miles compared to Norwich being around 28-29 square miles.