NXDN One Frequency vs Conventional NXDN Programming

[k3fs]

OFT has always missed transmissions. P25, DMR, or NXDN, all have the same problem with missing transmissions. This has been the case even with the 396XT on P25 OFT. Uniden has failed to address this for years.

 

[VE2ZPS]

OFT has always missed transmissions. P25, DMR, or NXDN, all have the same problem with missing transmissions. This has been the case even with the 396XT on P25 OFT. Uniden has failed to address this for years.

I think the 436/536 are doing a very decent job in picking-up NXDN and DMR OFT
This is my 8 minutes "non scientific" test, the 536 picked-up 24tx while the SDS100-200 bearly picked-up 25%
(Set-up and programming of the 3 radios being exactly the same)

 

[Ubbe]

Also remember that by default each P25 frequency, or talk group has a 2 sec delay. In a trunking system, a reply can move to a different frequency and you will miss the response. So I always set any thing on a P25 trunking system to 0 sec, delay. I am pretty sure this would hold true for any true trunking system.

It's the TG that has a delay, not the frequency, and it will switch to another frequency even during a TG delay time. That goes for both Uniden and Whistler scanners. There's a high risk using 0 TG delay that the scanner will pick up another TG to monitor before the original TG gets acitve again and you'll miss the response. Use a long TG delay time like 5-10 sec to not miss any replies.

You can say that a Whistler TRX scanner will scan some trunked systems the same way that a Uniden will conventional scan digital systems, it will check if the frequency has a carrier and then try to decode the datasignal until it gets enough information to decide what to do, or if no data can be decoded it will time out after a longer time. And as have been pointed out, Unidens conventional scan often works better than OFT as it's control channel data decoding seems to be flawed.

/Ubbe

 

[werinshades]

It's the TG that has a delay, not the frequency, and it will switch to another frequency even during a TG delay time. That goes for both Uniden and Whistler scanners. There's a high risk using 0 TG delay that the scanner will pick up another TG to monitor before the original TG gets acitve again and you'll miss the response. Use a long TG delay time like 5-10 sec to not miss any replies.

You can say that a Whistler TRX scanner will scan some trunked systems the same way that a Uniden will conventional scan digital systems, it will check if the frequency has a carrier and then try to decode the datasignal until it gets enough information to decide what to do, or if no data can be decoded it will time out after a longer time. And as have been pointed out, Unidens conventional scan often works better than OFT as it's control channel data decoding seems to be flawed.

/Ubbe

Maybe you misunderstood but TGID 0 is what the scanner uses for NXDN One frequency trunk systems. I think you're referring to TGID delay setting, which I have set at 3 sec.

 

[UPMan]

Some questions and/or feedback from engineering:

1. werinshades
NXDN OFT issue for TGID 0 both x36 and SDS, Conventional is no issue

Does it only miss TGID 0 or are others missed, as well?
When you delete TGID 0 and use ID Search, are the comms caught??
Could you get both NXDN OFT and conventional logs simultaneously using SDS 100 and 200?

2. W2GLD
DMR, NXDN, and P25 OFT issue of SDS, Conventional and x36 OFT are no issue

My understanding is that x36 OFT is no issue.
Could you get the problem OFTs and conventional logs simultaneously using SDS and x36?


3. VE2ZPS
DMR, NXDN OFT, and Conventional issue of SDS, x36 is no issue

Try different RF Filter settings.
Also, could you get the problem OFTs and conventional logs simultaneously using SDS and x36?

 

[werinshades]

Some questions and/or feedback from engineering:

1. werinshades
NXDN OFT issue for TGID 0 both x36 and SDS, Conventional is no issue

Does it only miss TGID 0 or are others missed, as well?
When you delete TGID 0 and use ID Search, are the comms caught??
Could you get both NXDN OFT and conventional logs simultaneously using SDS 100 and 200?

UPMan and Engineering:

As per your request, I have provided simultaneous Debug files on the SDS200 & 536Hp. I excluded the SDS100 and included the 536Hp as their wasn't any signal received on the SDS100 on either Debug Files.

Debug Files#1 is both scanners (SDS200/536Hp), in ID Search Mode, holding on System. No hits on TDID 0 (the only talk group on NXDN one frequency systems that I've seen).

Debug Files#2 is both scanners (SDS200/536HP) in ID Hold/System Channel Hold on TGID 0 (Rental Operations), (Filter Set to Normal on SDS200) and excluded SDS100 as no signals were received. As I hope the Debug file showed, their was more activity being decoded on the 536Hp then the SDS200. One thing I saw on the display of the SDS200 was the signal bars receiving the signals, but the voice wasn't always being decoded. In addition, the UID's were holding on the display without a signal present (similar if a ptt was being held) but no such activity on the 536. I'm not sure if that's shown in the debug files either.

Link to System: https://www.radioreference.com/apps/db/?fccCallsign=WRCE597

If anything else is needed, let me know...thanks for reviewing the issue.

 

[VE2ZPS]

Some questions and/or feedback from engineering:
3. VE2ZPS
DMR, NXDN OFT, and Conventional issue of SDS, x36 is no issue
Try different RF Filter settings.
Also, could you get the problem OFTs and conventional logs simultaneously using SDS and x36?

Thank you so much for your response,
I will try different filter settings and keep logs to monitor improvement (or not)

Here's a short video captured today; both the SDS200 and the BCD536HP have the exact same programming.
I am sorry this is in French but the "fundamental" remains the same
As you can see in these 4 minutes, there was 13 times where Danville was transmitting on the 536 while the SDS200 just passed over like if there was nothing. This is NXDN One Frequency but if it can help I will do the same for DMR One Frequency.

Sincerely,

 

[UPMan]

from the logs, RSSI is -105 to -120 dBm. This is too weak for reliable reception and any interference at all will only make it worse. Need to improve signal, first.

 

[werinshades]

from the logs, RSSI is -105 to -120 dBm. This is too weak for reliable reception and any interference at all will only make it worse. Need to improve signal, first.

This is why I'm using the 536Hp to monitor the system without issue but the SDS200 is unable to and is more likely to be affected by interference. That appears to be the case with most "marginal" signals. Both using separate outdoor antennas and approximately a mile away. They're not using too much transmitting power but unfortunately the SDS200 can't handle it reliably.

 

[VE2ZPS]

Mr. Upman,

I am now in test mode using 2 FL - one with 9 OFT (DMR) and one with 9 OFT (NXDN)
I will remain on each global filter mode for fews hours (I need transmissions) while keeping information on hits with Proscan
Is the any additional information that would make my tests more effective (or worthwhile) ?

 

[VE2ZPS]

Results of my tests using the Global Filter in AUTO and NORMAL mode.
As usual: exact same conditions, programming and external antenna
BCD536HP and SDS200 running simultaneously - Data collected with Proscan

Note: system 42.04 is NXDN Trunking should not have been there but kept anyway.

 

[UPMan]

Please change Global Auto Filter under Settings and find the optimal filter.
For each OFT site, the optimal filter may be different.
Once you determine the best for a particular OFT, reflect the filter setting to each site

By the way, when OFT is not received well, is that information displayed not only on Proscan but also on the scanner?

 

[Gadgetmann]

Can I get some clarification on programming as it is noted on here being programmed as:
One Frequency NXDN and Conventional NXDN.

I use the ARC software and the options are
Conventional
NXDN
NXDN One Frequency.

There is not a Conventional NXDN option.

I am trying to monitor the Dean Transportation system in Lansing, MI and have tried NXDN and NSDN One frequency and not heard any voice.
The only way I have heard voice is doing close call.

 

[VE2ZPS]

Please change Global Auto Filter under Settings and find the optimal filter.
For each OFT site, the optimal filter may be different.
Once you determine the best for a particular OFT, reflect the filter setting to each site

By the way, when OFT is not received well, is that information displayed not only on Proscan but also on the scanner?

Ok but since the Global Auto Filter have the same options available as what we can apply to individual site I assume it means that the different filter options available for individual site have already being tested when applied at the Global level (i.e. to all the sites) ?
(or maybe my understanding is wrong) ?

I will try the filter on an individual site basis; concentrating first on site with "higher level" traffic
Programming the Filter level at the site level will bypass the overall level in Settings ?

 

[VE2ZPS]

Please change Global Auto Filter under Settings and find the optimal filter.
For each OFT site, the optimal filter may be different.
Once you determine the best for a particular OFT, reflect the filter setting to each site
By the way, when OFT is not received well, is that information displayed not only on Proscan but also on the scanner?

By the way (I forgot) - When I bought the SDS100 and SDS200 I assumed that the DMR/NXDN OFT were at least at par with my 436/536
What is so wrong with the SDS that I have to play and try different option with each individual set-up of 50 (plus) sites just to try to improve the situation because they are receiving less than 50% of the transmissions while the 436/536 are doing such a wonderful job ?

I am an extremely loyal Uniden client (for so many years) and i am asking this question with the outmost respect
(but I dont understand what you did knowing that the 436/536 are so perfect for the OFT)

 

[werinshades]

By the way (I forgot) - When I bought the SDS100 and SDS200 I assumed that the DMR/NXDN OFT were at least at par with my 436/536
What is so wrong with the SDS that I have to play and try different option with each individual set-up of 50 (plus) sites just to try to improve the situation because they are receiving less than 50% of the transmissions while the 436/536 are doing such a wonderful job ?

I am an extremely loyal Uniden client (for so many years) and i am asking this question with the outmost respect
(but I dont understand what you did knowing that the 436/536 are so perfect for the OFT)

SDS200 is more likely to suffer from interference which can cause marginal and even some stronger signals/control channels etc. to be "wiped out" where the 536 is able to pull these same weak signals out and properly receive/decode them. My issue was diagnosed with just that, but I already have switched some of my listening back to the 536. It's good for some, worse for others....at this time.

 

[VE2ZPS]

Hi werinshades,
Many of my problematic DMR/NXDN OFT are local and I use many outdoor antennas.
These are very important in my monitoring so my ultimate question to Upman is:
- Does Uniden is planning to work on fixing this issue ? (and is it fixable) ?
If the answer is negative, I will simply get rid of the SDS100-SDS200 and return to my two 536 and get another 436

With all my respect, i did not pay that kind of money just to get two nice color displays; I want the audio (first).
And I will not waste my time trying to find the appropriate settings for each individual sites while the 436/536 are doing it perfectly without missing a single transmission.

 

[werinshades]

Hi werinshades,
Many of my problematic DMR/NXDN OFT are local and I use many outdoor antennas.
These are very important in my monitoring so my ultimate question to Upman is:
- Does Uniden is planning to work on fixing this issue ? (and is it fixable) ?
If the answer is negative, I will simply get rid of the SDS100-SDS200 and return to my two 536 and get another 436

With all my respect, i did not pay that kind of money just to get two nice color displays; I want the audio (first).
And I will not waste my time trying to find the appropriate settings for each individual sites while the 436/536 are doing it perfectly without missing a single transmission.

I hope your logs are more beneficial to resolve the issue. My logs were dismissed as signal strength related, and like your findings, the 536 was decoding properly. Usually they get forwarded to engineering for follow-up if they are helpful so I "assume" no news is good news. I'm not defending anything, just relaying my past experiences.

As far as keeping or returning the scanners is a tough call. Simulcast distortion was an issue prior to the SDS models, so for that reason I'll be keeping the scanners (I have both as well). If it wasn't for that and this was my only scanner, that would be a tough call. I was hoping for better results too, and on some analog systems I've been able to resolve the interference. What we're both seeing should not be occurring or an issue. Hoping we see firmware updates tomorrow and the engineering staff is working hard as we type.

 

[UnidenSupport]

Can I get some clarification on programming as it is noted on here being programmed as:
One Frequency NXDN and Conventional NXDN.

I use the ARC software and the options are
Conventional
NXDN
NXDN One Frequency.

There is not a Conventional NXDN option.

I am trying to monitor the Dean Transportation system in Lansing, MI and have tried NXDN and NSDN One frequency and not heard any voice.
The only way I have heard voice is doing close call.

People often say "conventional" to mean non-trunking. that would be the same as NXDN one frequency.

 

[UPMan]

Actually, OFT is not conventional, it is trunking. Conventional is conventional.