OHP vs. EMS

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fullgrownbear

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Did nothing wrong? You don't think it is wrong to delay the transporting of a sick or injured patient? The trooper even opened the back of the amulance to tell the patient that they would get her to the hospital in a few minutes and then proceeded to try to arrest the crew member! And you see nothing wrong!!! :eek:

The trooper was told in the first minute they had a patient, but he had his blinders on and was totally focused on throwing his weight around and causing grief for the crew.

Nothing wrong in the sense that he did not brake any laws or violate anyone's civil rights.....As far as delaying a patient's transport, it obviously wasn't an emergency or they would've had their lights and siren on. Listen, I'm not saying things couldn’t have been handled better, but to vilify this Trooper and absolve the paramedic of any wrong doing is downright ludicrous! Since when is it ok to obstructed police and resist arrest, just because you are transporting patients?? If the paramedic was so concerned with the patient's care, then why did leave the patient UNATTENDED, while he obstructed the Trooper?

I have never stopped an ambulance in my LE career and have come quit use to folks not yielding the right-of-way to me when I'm running code, but I would certainly expect a fellow first responder to have a little more situational awareness then the average citizen. With that said, I have nothing but respect and appreciation for the paramedics I work with. I count on them to help patch me up and get me to the hospital if I'm ever found in ditch shot-up, or worse hit by Joe Citizen while I'm conducting business on the side of the road. But, the fact remains the ambulance was not running code, so there for any delay obviously would not have impaired the patient's care.

Me personally, I would have never even taken the time out to stop the ambulance……as proven with this incident, it was not worth the time or trouble……I would have chalked it up to the another driver, driving with his head up his @$$.
 

car2back

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All it proved to me was both parties were out of line need an education on professionalism vs. acting like fools. It does take any question about the paramedic being innocent out of the equation though.
 

car2back

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Nothing wrong in the sense that he did not brake any laws or violate anyone's civil rights.....As far as delaying a patient's transport, it obviously wasn't an emergency or they would've had their lights and siren on.


transport is a form of patient treatment, the Trooper obstructed transport, thus interfered with the EMT (paramedic) preforming treatment. It does not matter that they were not traveling emergency status, the law must be strictly construed. there was still a person i nthe back of that ambulance being denied care while the Trooper was detaining the crew.

We've already covered the paramedic getting out of the ambulance- he was not terminating pt care by stepping out to deal with the problem obstructing transport.
 
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foster_006

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transport is a form of patient treatment, the Trooper obstructed transport, thus interfered with the EMT (paramedic) preforming treatment. It does not matter that they were not traveling emergency status, the law must be strictly construed. there was still a person i nthe back of that ambulance being denied care while the Trooper was detaining the crew.

Patient was being denied care because the EMT got out of the ambulance.. not because the trooper pulled them over. The transport was being delayed because the trooper pulled them over..

Trooper with a hot head or not, his business is not with the EMT in the back.. it's with the person in control of the vehicle.. and the EMT in the back should've known that.
 

car2back

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Foster, you just ignored everything I said, the Trooper intiated the traffic stop which immediately stopped transport of the patient. In the world of prehospital medicine, it is understood that transport to a care facility is in fact a form of treatment adminstered by an EMS crew; An ambualnce is not equipped to heal or repair a person's injuries, their job is to stabilize them and get them to a place that can. The Paramedic exiting the ambulance did not terminate his care for the patient, on the contrary he COULD have been acting in their interest by getting out to attempt to remedy the problem obstructing transportation, I don't know what his motivation was.

The Trooper made the first wrong decision, of course two wrongs don't make a right but seeing evidence that shows the paragod acting stupid does not excuse what the Trooper did in the first place, which was committ a criminal offense because he was angry over the EMT's traffic violation. If the trooper had a beef, he should have followed the Ambulance to the hospital, and delt with the matter in a professional way once the patient had been transfered to the care of someone else.
 
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kjwilson

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After viewing both videos completely I can understand why the District Attorney declined to file any charges against anyone involved. And support his decision to not file any charges and his opinion that the Trooper's conduct was unbecoming.

While I have the utmost respect for law enforcement and emergency services personnel, I have to say that Trooper Daniel Martin's conduct was wholly unprofessional and brings discredit to the uniform and to the Oklahoma Highway Patrol.

I did not see anything wrong with the ambulance driver's driving that would warrant a citation for failure to yield. Also, EMT Maurice White immediately informed Trooper Martin that they were transporting a patient when they were pulled over.

After reviewing the published video, statements, news articles and interviews I can only conclude that Trooper Martin over reacted to events, his conduct was unprofessional and he either has poor short term memory or just plain lied in his written reports. Taken individually, these traits are undesirable in law enforcement personnel, as whole however they are dangerous and unacceptable.

In my opinion Trooper Martin should be terminated for conduct unbecoming an officer and should have his CLEET certification revoked.

I wish to add that I'm sure some of you will agree with me and some will not. I am not an LEO, EMT or other government/emergency service person, I am your average Joe Citizen with a scanner. My opinions and conclusions are based on the information that is publicly available from the various news organizations are the best that I can make based on the information available.
 

N5TWB

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After viewing both videos completely I can understand why the District Attorney declined to file any charges against anyone involved. And support his decision to not file any charges and his opinion that the Trooper's conduct was unbecoming.

While I have the utmost respect for law enforcement and emergency services personnel, I have to say that Trooper Daniel Martin's conduct was wholly unprofessional and brings discredit to the uniform and to the Oklahoma Highway Patrol.

I did not see anything wrong with the ambulance driver's driving that would warrant a citation for failure to yield. Also, EMT Maurice White immediately informed Trooper Martin that they were transporting a patient when they were pulled over.

After reviewing the published video, statements, news articles and interviews I can only conclude that Trooper Martin over reacted to events, his conduct was unprofessional and he either has poor short term memory or just plain lied in his written reports. Taken individually, these traits are undesirable in law enforcement personnel, as whole however they are dangerous and unacceptable.

In my opinion Trooper Martin should be terminated for conduct unbecoming an officer and should have his CLEET certification revoked.

I wish to add that I'm sure some of you will agree with me and some will not. I am not an LEO, EMT or other government/emergency service person, I am your average Joe Citizen with a scanner. My opinions and conclusions are based on the information that is publicly available from the various news organizations are the best that I can make based on the information available.

Well said and dittos - you have captured my view exactly. Since some believe there is blame enough for all (i.e. the DAs office), I would asses it at about 98% on the trooper and 2% on the ambulance crew.
 

xerb1962

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Well said and dittos - you have captured my view exactly. Since some believe there is blame enough for all (i.e. the DAs office), I would asses it at about 98% on the trooper and 2% on the ambulance crew.

Ditto X2 this trooper needs to be fired. The ambulance driver pulled over for him as soon as possible. Look at the entire tape.
 

iamhere300

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Let me start by putting out a little disclaimer; I'm not related to Trooper Martin, or employed by the Oklahoma Highway Patrol. However I am a Trooper in an adjoining state who has worked with a few Oklahoma Troopers.

Now that all the facts are out, (not just the 3 minute edited version of the patient's son cell phone camera), it is obvious the Trooper did nothing wrong. The paramedic should and needs to be charged with obstruction.

.


Wow.

I started to post that there was no way you were in Law Enforcement, but then decided I should temper that.

If you actually ARE a Missouri State Trooper, and you actually believe that the trooper did NOTHING wrong, than there are issues.

The trooper had an easy way to check and see if the ambulance was carrying a patient, it's called a radio. As shown by the dash cam video, the trooper already knew how to get on the EMS channel and talk to the ambulance. I personally have been asked over the air if I had a patient on board by a trooper, over the radio before.

But regardless, he was told very quickly into the confrontation that there was a patient on board, and could this all be done at the hospital. This was before any kind of physical altercation took place. At this point, regardless of the level of injury or sickness, allow the EMS unit to get to their destination. Then deal with a ticket.

He refused to do so. Strike 1.

Law Enforcement officers are trained in how to defuse a situation. Any good officer could have defused this in a heartbeat, yet a very angry Trooper Martin decided it was a much better idea to start a yelling match. Force escalation in a situation like this was totally uncalled for. Don't let your emotions get in the way of doing your job. Strike 2.

The stop was lame. Totally. The trooper was in low level flight, and should know that people don't always get out of the way. You mention that there should have been better situational awareness on the part of the EMT, there should have been better driving skills on the part of the trooper. Offset a bit so the driver can see you in the rear view mirrors. Don't tailgate so the driver can see you in the rear view mirrors. Whats that sign on the big trucks - if you can't see my mirrors, I can't see you? Or was the reason for the stop the finger? Come on... No one writes the finger... Too many court decisions stating that you don't write the finger. Remember the one in class about the CT state trooper pulling over the school bus because some kid in the back flipped him off? Took a supreme court ruling, but it was tossed, and is a staple of law enforcement training since. Strike 3.

The trooper arrested Mr White. Very clear on the videos. Pointed at him, and placed him under arrest. Then he let him go? HUH? He was magically unarrested? You simply don't do that. Arrest him, have him post a bond, sign an agreement to appear, take him to jail, etc. You don't get the chance to waive your magic wand and unarrest him. This is soooooo basic. Strike 4.

Now, don't get me wrong. The medic is not without fault either.

The other trooper appeared to have the calmer head about him - he is the one that convinced Martin to deal with this at the hospital. But, one has to wonder, why in the world would you turn your dash cam OFF when you got on the scene? Yet, the troopers statement clearly states that he did turn it off.

Yes, the trooper was serving on a ship providing security to shipping in the gulf. Thank you Sailor Martin. He, like I, worked to defend the United States and its interests. That has no bearing on this situation - UNLESS he is suffering from a psychological condition as a result of that service, and if he is, he should not be on the road as a trooper.

You mention the Trooper risking his life as a trooper. I find it ludicrous to think that you point that out about the trooper - ignoring the fact that Medic White risks his life in the performance of his duties also. Many EMS agencies are issuing their employees vests. Many EMS employees lose their life in line of duty deaths.

The Medic leaving the patient. Clearly not abandonment, it was done with the intent (right or wrong) to get the transport going again. In EMS transport is considered part of the treatment. Non-issue.

Trooper Martin has been serving for under 2 years in OHP, Medic White for 30 years, and is highly respected in the EMS world. Check out the OK state EMS webpage for some of his reports and papers he has authored on the state of EMS in Oklahoma.

Finally - just for Trivia, the trooper who got the situation calmed down - like a good law enforcement officer should - used to work in EMS, and was a EMS board member in an adjoining county.

BTW, I was in EMS for years, Fire, and Law. My original POST certification was in the 80's, military before that.
 
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grack

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Nothing wrong in the sense that he did not brake any laws or violate anyone's civil rights.....As far as delaying a patient's transport, it obviously wasn't an emergency or they would've had their lights and siren on. .

Everyone screwed up on this, but as to your comment about a non-emergency...I've had a few relatives transported non-emergency that didn't need to be sitting in an ambulance on the side of the road waiting for a supposed insult to be righted. Had it been my family member in the ambulance you're damn right I would want to know what the hell was going on.
 

muhockey86

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In the dash cam video, you can clearly see the ambulance brake and pull to the side after it passes the car, who would of thought an ambulance can't stop as fast as a car?

fullgrownbear, just because an ambulance isn't running lights and siren doesn't mean its not a serious issue. There are three different transport options; emergency, urgent, and routine. I'm sure if you ask one of your friendly neighborhood medics, they will gladly explain it to you.

I also suggest you check out the video in which a Hazelwood police officer arrests a fire captain during patient care...he didn't fare so well did he?

I'm not saying the medic was right, but you cannot delay patient care. You certainly cannot detain a medic on an ALS rig if the driver is an EMT. Follow the ambulance to the hospital and take care of your business there.
 

fullgrownbear

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After reviewing the dash-cam video several times, I have to agree with most of you folks here. The paramedic clearly tells the Trooper that there is a patient in the ambulance. At that point, the Trooper should have concluded the stop and followed the ambulance to the hospital to address any violations there. I always said it could have been handled differently.

The paramedic's behavior didn’t help matters though…..just my two cents.

Didn’t mean to rile-up the masses here……
 

clegett

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Regardless of who did what and why, it all boils down to this.
Cop pulls ambulance over (while running code 1).
Cop makes contact with driver.
Driver says "we have a patient in the back." or any phrasing of this.
Cop SHOULD HAVE SAID: "we'll talk at the hospital"
cop gets back in car and follows ambulance to the hospital.

everything else is semantics.

Chip, EMT-B
 

N5TWB

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If you haven't clicked on the link in Freqed's post yet, it is the most revealing article yet about the background of both the EMT and Trooper Martin. The comments following the article are also worth the time to read. As a former resident of Fairfax, I found the article's quotes from residents about Martin to be in line with what my mom told me was going on at that time.
 
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