OpenSky Is this the beginning of the end?

[RayAir]

AFAIK, The general public will not be able to acquire a VSELP radio.

Why not? I happen to have two sitting im my basement that I bought on EBAY four years ago. I have no real use for them, but have used them for hiking a few times. It's the basic privacy factor as to why I kept them.

You would be surprised what you find on EBAY. 90% of the radios I own would have been practically unobtainable if not for EBAY or the internet. Or they would have been cost prohibitive to buy them directly from the manufacturer with options included.

 

[RayAir]

System/Technology
-----------
Passport LTR - can be scanned conventionally

Pro Voice- If you have the proper radio and proper programming you can listen in (if unencrypted)
(same thing with AEGIS and VSELP, although they have largely been phased out)

iDEN- Unknown, never tried (If this is like Nextel direct connect it wouldn't be worth the cost in equipment to try and monitor it)

MOTOTRBO- If you have the proper radio and programming you should be good to go (easy to monitor if calls are set to "ALL CALL", you just have to figure out which time slot is voice (not too hard) (ex-Detroit Zoo)

Nexedge- Unknown, never tried (should be equivalent to monitoring TRBO), they do offer a basic encryption scheme with over 65,000 possibilites (FYI)

OpenSky- You're screwed, this system is as anti-scanner/eavesdropper as Tetra systems in Mexico designed to lock out the drug cartels. You can't even buy your own radio and program it. The radio must be authenticated into the system and once logged in then it is sent traffic intended for it. Total B.S, I know. (Oakland Co)

 

[brandon]

If anyone has an OpenSky system in their area, they may want to capture signal samples and send them to dsdauthor so it can be investigated for possible inclusion into DSD.

 

[RayAir]

If anyone has an OpenSky system in their area, they may want to capture signal samples and send them to dsdauthor so it can be investigated for possible inclusion into DSD.

I can grab them, but not in the raw. I don't have a scanner with a tap. If I just record them off-the-air I think they are worthless.

That is very encouraging news that someone is making great progress with that digital decoding software program. I wish I had that kind of knowledge. I believe that software will be the only way to monitor some of these systems (economically speaking).

 

[nsrailfan6130]

Why not? I happen to have two sitting im my basement that I bought on EBAY four years ago. I have no real use for them, but have used them for hiking a few times. It's the basic privacy factor as to why I kept them.

You would be surprised what you find on EBAY. 90% of the radios I own would have been practically unobtainable if not for EBAY or the internet. Or they would have been cost prohibitive to buy them directly from the manufacturer with options included.

Interesting. Even if I was able to obtain a radio like that it wouldn't be much use here bcause my closest VSELP system would be (I think) Cleveland almost 175 miles away.

 

[newsphotog]

Phase 1 Is P25IP?

So since P25 is an Oepn Standard will they make a Phase 2 P25 TDMA(?) Radio Scanner?

Short answer: P-25^IP is just regular ole P-25, just connected to the internet. It is scannable if your scanner is P-25-enabled. P-25 Phase II is currently a draft standard and very few agencies, if any, are on Phase II. The scanner manufacturers will cross that bridge when they get to it.

 

[K7CAR]

My biggest issue with OpenSky isn't that it can't be monitored by a scanner. My issue is the amount of time and money that have been wasted on this system. It's now at least five years behind schedule, and I've long since lost track of how many millions of dollars over budget it is. To an equal extent, I have problems with the quality of the system. Bonked calls, dead spots, etc. Just about every user I've talked to hates this system. Coverage is bad, especially in buildings, static, motorboating (or going digital), etc. One of these days, the problems with this system are going to get a cop or firefighter killed because his $3200 radio couldn't work.

You can add me to the list of people that aren't up on every system, so I appreciate this thread. The past several days our local radio station (KIRO) has been talking about the poor performance of the Seattle-Tacoma systems (37 mil $$$) and how it's putting officers and firefighters at risk. KIRO high lighted 3 seperate instances where officers had their radios bonk in a critical situation. One being the cop killer Maurice Clemmons that killed the 4 Lakewood officers. Dave Reichert, Congressman and long time Sheriff was interviewed and was aware of the long standing problems. He's going to form an investigative task force. If you're interested in the interview do a Google search for the Ron and Don show, radio bonking. I don't have the link handy.

Radio bonking was a new term to me, so that was the first time I've heard of serious problems with the new system. Appears to me that it's not the systems fault, but the limitations of the 800 mhz signal. From what KB8QDM posted it's common with the OpenSky too. I doubt anyone is going to admit they screwed up and wasted $$$$ millions, so I guess we can look forward to more money getting flushed down the toilet for years to come.

 

[N_Jay]

Short answer: P-25^IP is just regular ole P-25, just connected to the internet.

Not quite.
P25^IP is just Harris's brand name for their P25 system.
They like talking about the IP in the infrastructure to make it sound more advanced than Motorola.

It is NOT connected to the Internet.

t is scannable if your scanner is P-25-enabled.

Yep!

P-25 Phase II is currently a draft standard and very few agencies, if any, are on Phase II.

Phase 2 is being finalized, but NO systems are out there.

Motorola has sold a few systems using their proprietary (pre-Phase 2) TDMA format.

The scanner manufacturers will cross that bridge when they get to it.

Yep, again.

 

[N_Jay]

You can add me to the list of people that aren't up on every system, so I appreciate this thread. The past several days our local radio station (KIRO) has been talking about the poor performance of the Seattle-Tacoma systems (37 mil $$$) and how it's putting officers and firefighters at risk. KIRO high lighted 3 seperate instances where officers had their radios bonk in a critical situation. One being the cop killer Maurice Clemmons that killed the 4 Lakewood officers. Dave Reichert, Congressman and long time Sheriff was interviewed and was aware of the long standing problems. He's going to form an investigative task force. If you're interested in the interview do a Google search for the Ron and Don show, radio bonking. I don't have the link handy.

Radio bonking was a new term to me, so that was the first time I've heard of serious problems with the new system. Appears to me that it's not the systems fault, but the limitations of the 800 mhz signal. From what KB8QDM posted it's common with the OpenSky too. I doubt anyone is going to admit they screwed up and wasted $$$$ millions, so I guess we can look forward to more money getting flushed down the toilet for years to come.

These are NOT OpenSky systems.
Remember, the news tends to have a lot of technically errors in their reports.

 

[K7CAR]

I didn't say they were OpenSky, KB8DQM posted about the similar problems they are having with their OpenSky system, so perhaps it's not the specific system to blame, but the inherent variables and limitations of frequency in the 800 mhz range? Our topography around the Seattle area is very difficult, so other than flooding the area with repeaters what's the solution? I'm sure it's a daunting task to identify every dead zone and problem area. Some thing will be worked out eventually, but at what cost?

 

[trace1]

Maybe it doesn't really matter if "OpenSky is this the beginning of the end" because after 12/21/12 nothing will be monitorable...

(At least according to some.)

 

[N_Jay]

I didn't say they were OpenSky, KB8DQM posted about the similar problems they are having with their OpenSky system, so perhaps it's not the specific system to blame, but the inherent variables and limitations of frequency in the 800 mhz range? Our topography around the Seattle area is very difficult, so other than flooding the area with repeaters what's the solution? I'm sure it's a daunting task to identify every dead zone and problem area. Some thing will be worked out eventually, but at what cost?

First, you set realistic expectations.

If the agency is expecting "every dead zone and problem area" to be fixed, you have a recipe for failure.

Radio reception and coverage is statistical in nature. It always has been and it always will be.

In the end you balance cost against needs and build a system that best meets both limitations.

 

[radiofan1]

First, you set realistic expectations.

If the agency is expecting "every dead zone and problem area" to be fixed, you have a recipe for failure.

Radio reception and coverage is statistical in nature. It always has been and it always will be.

In the end you balance cost against needs and build a system that best meets both limitations.

And sometimes folks install 800 MHz systems in places where it is not appropriate due to terrain. The higher the frequency, the closer to line of sight you get. No avoiding it unless one "floods the area with repeaters", as mentioned above. If "every dead zone and problem area" amounts to 50/50 coverage, then the design is the recipe for failure.

 

[N_Jay]

And sometimes folks install 800 MHz systems in places where it is not appropriate due to terrain. The higher the frequency, the closer to line of sight you get. No avoiding it unless one "floods the area with repeaters", as mentioned above. If "every dead zone and problem area" amounts to 50/50 coverage, then the design is the recipe for failure.

Somewhat true, except as you increase the desired reliability and move from mobile to portable equipment, the difference becomes significantly less.

Additionally, often simulcast issues may define site separation to a greater extent than simple coverage calculations.

Then environmental noise and antenna efficiency can make up the final piece of the trifecta as to why you may often need almost the same number of sites without regard to the frequency band selected.

Layer on this the fact that you typically can not select optimum sites, but rather have to chose from available radio sites.

As for a distortion of what I said about "expectations", you have jumped to the assumption that "every dead zone and problem area" amounts to 50/50 coverage with no basis.

 

[radiofan1]

As for a distortion of what I said about "expectations", you have jumped to the assumption that "every dead zone and problem area" amounts to 50/50 coverage with no basis.

No Jay, read it again---I said "IF". My comments weren't meant to be confrontational, merely an elaboration.

I completely agree with the simulcast part---it often adds insult to injury.

 

[N_Jay]

No Jay, read it again---I said "IF". My comments weren't meant to be confrontational, merely an elaboration.

Sorry for my misreading of your comment.

However the expectation for filling every "every dead zone and problem area" is starting to mean 99+% coverage, hence the reason we see so many "failures".

 

[FrequenC]

GRE echos RR Forum Members

I just got off the phone a few moments ago with a gentleman from GRE in California. It appears that there are no plans at this time or at any time in the foreseeable future for GRE marketing an OpenSky capable scanner. That does mean never but I think it’s safe to say not in the foreseeable future. Yes those of you that expressed this early on in the thread are absolutely correct. I commend those out there who have shared their knowledge of the system and their past scanner experience in responding to the original post.
I should have never brought politics into the thread
A clear an concise explanation has been given and is appreciated
I apologize for the political rants
I concede I'm just an old frustrated misinformed "Police Calls" listener that didn't want to say die.

Back to DXing the Broadcast Band
Happy listening to the many wonderful folks on the RR Forums regardless of what you’re listening to.
I've sent my scanner back and opted for a vintage fully restored 1937 Silvertone cathedral radio.
By the way it does have "Police" on the dial face however that band went silent long before OpenSky.
I now have a radio that is not over my head
I now return you to your regularly scheduled frequency as I dial in "The Mysterious Traveler" and The latest episode of "TheShadow"


Lee

 

[screenersam]

this thread sounds like the Edacs Provoice. very frustrting to see a county mounty whiz by your house and have no idea what's the up. fire calls, state police and air keep me interested but would really, really like the county. my only hope is they downgrade to save money (since the system is in place might not happen).

 

[idontknow82]

Shouldn't it be called "closed sky" since you can' t monitor anything? Also false advertising on the "open" part.

 

[newsphotog]

Shouldn't it be called "closed sky" since you can' t monitor anything? Also false advertising on the "open" part.

It's "open" if you're a part of the network. So it's not totally a lie. Only the people that use the network are the ones that matter.