OpenSky Is this the beginning of the end?

[colby4601]

It's "open" if you're a part of the network. So it's not totally a lie. Only the people that use the network are the ones that matter.

Even though it's "open" for the system users, I would say it's usually "closed" to them as well

 

[zz0468]

However the expectation for filling every "every dead zone and problem area" is starting to mean 99+% coverage, hence the reason we see so many "failures".

I've even seen worse. I've dealt with one agency that tried to define their requirements as 100/100, and anything less was a failure.

 

[DaveNF2G]

It's not really intentionally false advertising. The reference point is the system users, not the general public. Motorola's "Private Line" does absolutely nothing to keep people with non-system radios from hearing any and all traffic. It does keep system users with properly programmed radios from hearing each other's traffic, so it is "private" in only that sense.

The false sense of real privacy is in the imagination of the uninformed user.

 

[PanJurekMrJerry]

Why not? I happen to have two sitting im my basement that I bought on EBAY four years ago. I have no real use for them, but have used them for hiking a few times. It's the basic privacy factor as to why I kept them.

You would be surprised what you find on EBAY. 90% of the radios I own would have been practically unobtainable if not for EBAY or the internet. Or they would have been cost prohibitive to buy them directly from the manufacturer with options included.

Yeah but couldn't a system "sting" the radios so that you couldn't listen?

 

[PanJurekMrJerry]

System/Technology
-----------
Passport LTR - can be scanned conventionally

Pro Voice- If you have the proper radio and proper programming you can listen in (if unencrypted)
(same thing with AEGIS and VSELP, although they have largely been phased out)

iDEN- Unknown, never tried (If this is like Nextel direct connect it wouldn't be worth the cost in equipment to try and monitor it)

MOTOTRBO- If you have the proper radio and programming you should be good to go (easy to monitor if calls are set to "ALL CALL", you just have to figure out which time slot is voice (not too hard) (ex-Detroit Zoo)

Nexedge- Unknown, never tried (should be equivalent to monitoring TRBO), they do offer a basic encryption scheme with over 65,000 possibilites (FYI)

OpenSky- You're screwed, this system is as anti-scanner/eavesdropper as Tetra systems in Mexico designed to lock out the drug cartels. You can't even buy your own radio and program it. The radio must be authenticated into the system and once logged in then it is sent traffic intended for it. Total B.S, I know. (Oakland Co)

Does Pro-Voice include Control Frequency encryption?

Also wouldn't you need permission from the system since I am sure that they are aware of what radio is allowed on the system and which isn't.

 

[HM1529]

It's "open" if you're a part of the network. So it's not totally a lie. Only the people that use the network are the ones that matter.

That's only true in theory. Network administration rules and technological limitations keep the Pennsylvania network from being as "open" as the public may assume.

First, radios can only scan three talkgroups (two priorities (P1, P2) and the channel you're parked on). This is, apparently, a technical limitation of the system technology. It was explained to me that scanning any more talkgroups would put a strain on the network since, for instance, a single talkgroup could be theoretically requested by thousands of radios at hundreds of tower sites across the state. As a result, the radios only have two talkgroups other than the one you're sitting on that they can monitor.
Second, talkgroup sharing is pretty limited from what I understand. There is a global profile in all of PA's radios and that profile contains ICS based talkgroups for use at major incidents...but not for day to day interops. Other than that global profile, there is no statewide all call or hailing type talkgroup. In order for a unit from one agency (unit 1) to contact a unit from another agency (unit 2), unit 1 must contact the network operations center by phone to request connection to unit 2 or know unit 2's individual ID so 1 can make a direct private call to 2.

Personally, I am still assigned an old VHF radio and will continue using VHF for my job indefinitely since it was determined that the state OpenSky system was not a viable option for what I do. In fact, Harris is in the process of building out a new narrowband VHF repeater system for PA's DCNR since they could not get satisfactory coverage in a lot of the remote state forest areas. I manage aerial pest spraying programs in the state and have been repeatedly told that OpenSky has issues handling aircraft on the system. I've also been told that because we use third party contractors for our spraying work, we cannot make those contractors install the OpenSky equipment in their aircraft. Allegedly, the radios are not FAA accepted or certified for use in aircraft, so there could be liability issues if an aircraft malfunctioned with the equipment installed. When I asked why the state police had the radios in their aircraft I was told that since the state is self insured, they would be installing radios in state owned aircraft.

Considering that with my old VHF radio I can talk to at least four different state agencies and also monitor federal freqs and interop freqs, the state OpenSky system is actually a step backward in interagency communication. Agencies will get a slew of nice new channels/talkgroups, but trying to talk to anyone on the outside is a hassle. There is a talkgroup for each of the 67 counties in the state that state agencies can use to contact a county 911 center, but that only works if the county is monitoring the channel and if the agency in question has opted to get those talkgroups programmed into their radios. As of right now, my agency did not do that...although that might change in the future...we've been waiting to get all the radios in the agency issued and online for probably five or six years now...it's always "any day now, oh wait, we need to do one more software upgrade before these leave the warehouse".

 

[newsphotog]

That's only true in theory. Network administration rules and technological limitations keep the Pennsylvania network from being as "open" as the public may assume.

First, radios can only scan three talkgroups (two priorities (P1, P2) and the channel you're parked on). This is, apparently, a technical limitation of the system technology. It was explained to me that scanning any more talkgroups would put a strain on the network since, for instance, a single talkgroup could be theoretically requested by thousands of radios at hundreds of tower sites across the state. As a result, the radios only have two talkgroups other than the one you're sitting on that they can monitor.
Second, talkgroup sharing is pretty limited from what I understand. There is a global profile in all of PA's radios and that profile contains ICS based talkgroups for use at major incidents...but not for day to day interops. Other than that global profile, there is no statewide all call or hailing type talkgroup. In order for a unit from one agency (unit 1) to contact a unit from another agency (unit 2), unit 1 must contact the network operations center by phone to request connection to unit 2 or know unit 2's individual ID so 1 can make a direct private call to 2.

Personally, I am still assigned an old VHF radio and will continue using VHF for my job indefinitely since it was determined that the state OpenSky system was not a viable option for what I do. In fact, Harris is in the process of building out a new narrowband VHF repeater system for PA's DCNR since they could not get satisfactory coverage in a lot of the remote state forest areas. I manage aerial pest spraying programs in the state and have been repeatedly told that OpenSky has issues handling aircraft on the system. I've also been told that because we use third party contractors for our spraying work, we cannot make those contractors install the OpenSky equipment in their aircraft. Allegedly, the radios are not FAA accepted or certified for use in aircraft, so there could be liability issues if an aircraft malfunctioned with the equipment installed. When I asked why the state police had the radios in their aircraft I was told that since the state is self insured, they would be installing radios in state owned aircraft.

Considering that with my old VHF radio I can talk to at least four different state agencies and also monitor federal freqs and interop freqs, the state OpenSky system is actually a step backward in interagency communication. Agencies will get a slew of nice new channels/talkgroups, but trying to talk to anyone on the outside is a hassle. There is a talkgroup for each of the 67 counties in the state that state agencies can use to contact a county 911 center, but that only works if the county is monitoring the channel and if the agency in question has opted to get those talkgroups programmed into their radios. As of right now, my agency did not do that...although that might change in the future...we've been waiting to get all the radios in the agency issued and online for probably five or six years now...it's always "any day now, oh wait, we need to do one more software upgrade before these leave the warehouse".

And? I'm not an OpenSky salesman. My comment was a sarcastic response to a sarcastic statement about a product name that was probably created by the marketing department and not the technicians. I wasn't defending OpenSky.

Nonetheless, most of those problems you described are technical limitations of the system. I can tell that you have strong feelings about the Penn OpenSky network, but why didn't the state investigate the system before the bid was awarded? The state probably knew what it needed out of the system, like a larger scan list, state-wide mutual aid call channel or radios that are FAA-type accepted, and those problems would have been revealed when state engineers picked the manufacturer's brains. Why didn't anyone catch that?

One rule to live by: if your mother says she loves you, check it out. The State of Pennsylvania did not do that. It may look good on paper, but don't take their word for it. The system is only as good as the system's limitations allow.

 

[Dorpmuller]

I've sent my scanner back and opted for a vintage fully restored 1937 Silvertone cathedral radio.
By the way it does have "Police" on the dial face however that band went silent long before OpenSky.
I now have a radio that is not over my head
I now return you to your regularly scheduled frequency as I dial in "The Mysterious Traveler" and The latest episode of "TheShadow"


Lee

Ah! Now you're talking! I love restoring old radios and listen to OTR via an MP3 player and SStrans AM transmitter. Even got my wife hooked on OTR shows.

Open scam or not, the cops just pick up their cellphones around here if they have to talk around. Very little activity on VHF.

Rich

 

[70cutlass442]

this may be a complete newb question... but are the open sky radios capable of simplex use for lets say fire ground ops?

 

[RayAir]

Yeah but couldn't a system "sting" the radios so that you couldn't listen?

I am not using the radios to monitor anyone's system.
There have never been any VSELP systems in my area.

 

[RayAir]

Does Pro-Voice include Control Frequency encryption?

Also wouldn't you need permission from the system since I am sure that they are aware of what radio is allowed on the system and which isn't.

Yes, you may run into some problems trying to program a trunked system into your own radio.
I haven't tried it personally, but it may be possible to program the channels in conventionally. If you search around this site you will find many posts that can direct you how to monitor unencrypted ProVoice.