Orange County AirCall Talkgroup

[oracavon]

I received a PM from another member requesting info about the OC AirCall talkgroup, but I couldn't reply because his account currently has PM's and email disabled. Since others might also have the same question, I thought I'd post the info here. Hope that's OK.

AirCall is the unencrypted analog talkgroup where dispatchers from various agencies ask for an available helicopter for hot calls. Due to budget limitations, helicopters in OC are shared among various agencies (typically, one agency will own and operate the helicopter, and other agencies will contract with them for helicopter service as needed). However, once a helicopter is contacted on AirCall, they then switch over to one of the calling agency's encrypted green channels to join the ground units already on the call. So you never get to hear what happens.

 

[PaulNDaOC]

Having this talkgroup in analog mode probably is helpful alerting allied agencies air units from beyond the 'Orange Curtain' such as LASD and CHP. etc..when necessary. Having as many copters in the region able to hear the need for emergency air support is going to make a big difference.

LASD copters monitor a bunch of radios for assisting outside agencies and this talkgroup would be mandatory listening for them.

In addition to support for pursuits LASD would fly into OC without hesitation if requested in a 997,999, OIS type situation like they did with ground units to the Anaheim civil unrest not too long ago making info Control One might have relevant and timely.

 

[oracavon]

Having this talkgroup in analog mode probably is helpful alerting allied agencies air units from beyond the 'Orange Curtain' such as LASD and CHP. etc..when necessary. Having as many copters in the region able to hear the need for emergency air support is going to make a big difference.

When OC originally went digital, they kept the Red Channel TG analog for the same reason - so outside agencies could monitor it for pursuits and other interagency activities that might eventually involve them. Then later, for some reason, they changed it to digital, although they did leave it unencrypted to allow monitoring. Maybe they were just waiting for the other agencies to get digital receivers before shutting off the analog TG, but that same logic would also apply to AirCall, so it's not clear why they would change one to digital and leave the other one analog.

 

[Fireboat03]

When OC originally went digital, they kept the Red Channel TG analog for the same reason - so outside agencies could monitor it for pursuits and other interagency activities that might eventually involve them. Then later, for some reason, they changed it to digital, although they did leave it unencrypted to allow monitoring. Maybe they were just waiting for the other agencies to get digital receivers before shutting off the analog TG, but that same logic would also apply to AirCall, so it's not clear why they would change one to digital and leave the other one analog.

Well OC is currently working on their Phase I FDMA system and AIRCALL is in P25 digital as we speak. So yes in the future everything will be digital moving forward including all of Fire

 

[Mikek]

If I recall correctly - adding encryption to the Hot Red receivers was cost prohibitive, so they left it out. Like you said, Red was initially simulcast in analog in order to get allied agencies time to procure and install equipment to monitor Red in P25.

Aircall is analog due to some early feedback (from San Diego, I think) that digital didn't perform well in the air due to signal timing issues related to the high speed of the aircraft.

Again, from memory, the standard OC LE Helo radio package has 2 CCCS with Aircall as the "hot" receiver in the second radio.

 

[oracavon]

Well OC is currently working on their Phase I FDMA system and AIRCALL is in P25 digital as we speak. So yes in the future everything will be digital moving forward including all of Fire

Actually, they're still operating on their original analog/digital Phase 1 simulcast system that's been in place for well over 15 years. On that system, AirCall is still analog, as are most of the fire, med, tan and some of the pink talkgroups.

For the past couple of years, they've been experimenting with a separate P25 Phase 1 system carrying a limited number of simulcast talkgroups from their operational system. That experimental system is all digital (unencrypted), so that's where you're hearing AirCall in P25 mode. But like I said, it has only a limited number of talkgroups like Red, AirCall and a few fire talkgroups. While AirCall on the experimental system is P25 digital, AirCall on their daily operational system is still in analog mode.

For reference, their operational system is here: Countywide Coordinated Communications System (CCCS) Trunking System, Orange County, California - Scanner Frequencies

And their experimental system is here: Countywide Coordinated Communications (Project 25) System (CCCS) Trunking System, Orange County, California - Scanner Frequencies

 

[oracavon]

Aircall is analog due to some early feedback (from San Diego, I think) that digital didn't perform well in the air due to signal timing issues related to the high speed of the aircraft.

That sounds like it could make some sense, except that the air units have always had to use digital for the encrypted LE talkgroups, so I can't see how they could do that successfully and have trouble with AirCall being digital. And having agencies monitoring AirCall without LE digital capability would be pointless, since they wouldn't be able to switch to any of the active talkgroups to participate in the LE activity after being contacted on AirCall.

 

[marcotor]

Well OC is currently working on their Phase I FDMA system and AIRCALL is in P25 digital as we speak. So yes in the future everything will be digital moving forward including all of Fire

Hmm.. I have heard several calls for Duke and HB-1 today. All ANALOG on TG 6736. And on my purposed RED/Aircall Pro-651 the modulation is LOUD. Much louder than the Red.

 

[marcotor]

Is the Site-115 system still up? Haven't heard a stick of traffic on that thing in a long time here in North OC

 

[K6CDO]

-...-
Aircall is analog due to some early feedback (from San Diego, I think) that digital didn't perform well in the air due to signal timing issues related to the high speed of the aircraft. -...-

LE on the San Diego RCS is (and always has been) digital. Simulcast digital timing hasn't been an issue. The Law Air TG is analog so that all users can hail the aircraft.

 

[Fireboat03]

Is the Site-115 system still up? Haven't heard a stick of traffic on that thing in a long time here in North OC

Site-115 is up and operational and has been for a while now. But you wont be able to pickup the control channel from North OC.

 

[PaulNDaOC]

Whatever the real reason it is in analog may never be known or disclosed here but logic and workplace knowledge have me thinking in the direction of either reception by or access to/from as many allied agencies as feasible.

In the handful of contacts I have had with Control One personnel, has been nothing but great, they have the brightest and some of the most professional people in the industry and can dance circles around most centers across the country.

I don't even need to ponder knowing that they have done this for good reason.

 

[oracavon]

Whatever the real reason it is in analog may never be known or disclosed here but logic and workplace knowledge have me thinking in the direction of either reception by or access to/from as many allied agencies as feasible.

In the handful of contacts I have had with Control One personnel, has been nothing but great, they have the brightest and some of the most professional people in the industry and can dance circles around most centers across the country.

I don't even need to ponder knowing that they have done this for good reason.

The mystery is that any reason we can think of applies equally to both AirCall and Red, yet Red was converted to digital and AirCall wasn't (remember, they both started out as analog). I don't doubt that there was a reason for it, but I would love to know what the reason was.

 

[Fireboat03]

Well I think we can all agree that in the next 2 to 3 years when OC upgrades to Phase I FDMA RED will keep moving forward in P25 digital and Aircall will be P25 too.

I do believe that since RED is P25 and Aircall is Analog that it works and why fix anything when its not broke. The trunked system is at close to end of shelf life anyways

 

[oracavon]

Well I think we can all agree that in the next 2 to 3 years when OC upgrades to Phase I FDMA RED will keep moving forward in P25 digital and Aircall will be P25 too.

I do believe that since RED is P25 and Aircall is Analog that it works and why fix anything when its not broke. The trunked system is at close to end of shelf life anyways

I'd be interested in knowing the source for your first statement, as I have not seen anything even semi-official that would indicate when the new system will be implemented, nor have I seen anything that would indicate that they will be using Phase 1 FDMA. I would expect the new system, whenever it gets implemented, to be Phase 2 TDMA, as that would be the latest technology and would have the longest expected service life. OC has a habit of delaying the implementation of new systems in order to include newer technology as it becomes available. That's one reason why it took such a long time to transition the LE agencies to the existing trunked system - the original plan was to use the same analog technology as the fire agencies, but before that happened, they delayed the transition in order to upgrade to digital. So I suspect that the reason that they suspended further deployment of their experimental Phase 1 TDMA system is because they plan to go with Phase 2 for the new system. This would also explain why we haven't seen anything new on the air since the experimental system was first set up more than two years ago.

As for your second statement, that statement was also true when they were both analog, and yet they still transitioned Red to digital. So the logic of "it works and why fix anything when its (sic) not broke" doesn't apply in this case. It wasn't broke, but they "fixed" it anyway. No one is expecting them to change it now, but the reason behind the decision is still unknown (to us).

 

[Fireboat03]

I'd be interested in knowing the source for your first statement, as I have not seen anything even semi-official that would indicate when the new system will be implemented, nor have I seen anything that would indicate that they will be using Phase 1 FDMA. I would expect the new system, whenever it gets implemented, to be Phase 2 TDMA, as that would be the latest technology and would have the longest expected service life. OC has a habit of delaying the implementation of new systems in order to include newer technology as it becomes available. That's one reason why it took such a long time to transition the LE agencies to the existing trunked system - the original plan was to use the same analog technology as the fire agencies, but before that happened, they delayed the transition in order to upgrade to digital. So I suspect that the reason that they suspended further deployment of their experimental Phase 1 TDMA system is because they plan to go with Phase 2 for the new system. This would also explain why we haven't seen anything new on the air since the experimental system was first set up more than two years ago.

As for your second statement, that statement was also true when they were both analog, and yet they still transitioned Red to digital. So the logic of "it works and why fix anything when its (sic) not broke" doesn't apply in this case. It wasn't broke, but they "fixed" it anyway. No one is expecting them to change it now, but the reason behind the decision is still unknown (to us).

I heard straight from OCSD radio department that roughly 2018 or 2019 would be the cut-over date. Keep in mind that the CCCS still has not re-banded yet. Not sure if that would even happen anymore at this point.

Makes sense that the CCCS would use the latest technology with Phase II TDMA. Their current system is already over built right now anyways with their talkgroup allocations. They sure are not hurting for more talkgroups.

What is strange is that Orange County is a very rich county and there are other cities and counties and states that have the latest and greatest and OC is still lagging behind. You would think by now they would have upgraded and added more towers and fixed the dead spot areas within the canyons. But its all a mystery. Most of the county LE agencies and fire are still using XTS3000 radios. Go Figure. Maybe The Department of Homeland Security forgot to put OC on the map for grant money for upgrades.

 

[oracavon]

Yeah, I wouldn't expect them to spend any time or money rebanding the current system just before they replace it. That wouldn't make any sense, logically or financially.

The 2018-2019 time frame makes sense, although the changeover dates for previous systems that the County communicated to the agencies I worked for in the past turned out to be overly optimistic, so I wouldn't be surprised if that's the case this time as well. On the other hand, 2018-2019 may well be revised dates from earlier targets and therefore more realistic at this point.

Historically, OC tends to go for the latest tech at the time, and then just support it and keep it going as long as they can in order to maximize the return on their expenditure. They rarely go for incremental upgrades, except when needed to solve specific, high-priority problems. Instead, the money that could have been spent on incremental upgrades goes toward the next system when the time comes. I remember all the problems with the old 460 MHz system due to the limited number of frequencies available - multiple agencies on the same frequency transmitting at the same time, resulting in intermittent reception even in their own local areas. Plus a lot of multi-path/multi-site distortion on countywide frequencies. They did do a few tweaks and added a couple of additional frequencies over the years, but that was about it. We just had to live with it.

Also, since OC is politically conservative and heavily Republican in a Democrat-dominated state, they tend to get "overlooked" for a lot of federal funds during Democratic administrations. That's probably not the whole story, but it's definitely a factor.

 

[PaulNDaOC]

LE went on CCCS in 2000 and was sold to them with a 15 year lifespan by Motorola.

I recently saw a funding request document stating a three year extension had been made, it was written for a city council and had no explanation.

In 2014 the county was in the process of getting user agencies to fund the next generation, and specifically were requesting funding to replace existing transmit site equipment, along with car and portable radios.

Though there was no further details,, what bits of info i do see point to 2018 implementation.