Orange County NY 911

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trauma74

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caskis,

I think a lot of it has to do with not having the trust or confidence in anything that the County has a hand in. The County is already running into issues with the 700/800 frequencies that they tried to license for the system. Many of the frequencies that the County tried to license were denied because of co-channel interference from NJ, NYC etc. So instead of being one system, it is going to be split into an East/West system. This was not the original plan. Now, with the number of channels being limited on each side, there is concern among agencies that when a major incident is going on or multiple agencies are operating at the same time, that they might have issues communicating with Fire Control and with other units.
 
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cackis

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caskis,

I think a lot of it has to do with not having the trust or confidence in anything that the County has a hand in. The County is already running into issues with the 700/800 frequencies that they tried to license for the system. Many of the frequencies that the County tried to license were denied because of co-channel interference from NJ, NYC etc. So instead of being one systems, it is going to be split into an East/West system. This was not the original plan. Now, with the number of channels being limited on each side, there is concern among agencies that when a major incident is going on or multiple agencies are operating at the same time, that they might have issues communicating with Fire Control and with other units.

Valid concerns Trauma. Motorola engineers have run their analysis and say their will be plenty of capacity. I guess we will find out. It will be nice to get everyone "on the same page". Lets just hope it works as projected and that egos and misinformation don't get in the way of what should to be a good thing for all public safety agencies.
 

trauma74

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cackis,

I completely agree with you. It would be nice to have everyone on the same page. I hope that there is extensive testing done, so we can see the capacity of the system before any agencies go live with it.
 

captncarp

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But when is the new system, what ever it is, going to be up and running? For real.
It doesn't sound very promising. Seems like a awful lot of taxpayers money for just the same old result. Nothing realy new just a chance to sell a lot of radio equipment.
 

trauma74

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But when is the new system, what ever it is, going to be up and running? For real.
It doesn't sound very promising. Seems like a awful lot of taxpayers money for just the same old result. Nothing realy new just a chance to sell a lot of radio equipment.

Sullivan County's new radio system will be up and running before the Orange County system
 

GTR8000

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I hope that there is extensive testing done, so we can see the capacity of the system before any agencies go live with it.

No "extensive testing" is needed. There are tried and trued formulas that determine required trunked system capacity.


Sullivan County's new radio system will be up and running before the Orange County system

You're not seriously comparing a couple of analog conventional simulcasted VHF frequencies to a full blown, two-cell, simulcast, 700/800 MHz, TDMA trunked system, are you? :roll:
 

PJH

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Just wait until you have lots of background noise and try to use it for real fireground use. It will be a learning curve and pains trying to adjust the human ear to the digital modulation.

Although the TDMA with the advanced codec is better than the IMBE, nothing beats conventional analog on scene. Something to consider if anyone actually has a hand here in the OC processs.

That's why we still use it. Trying playing in a basement fire and getting a channel grant and then having intelligible voice based on how everyone screams into the SCBA.
 

cackis

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Just wait until you have lots of background noise and try to use it for real fireground use. It will be a learning curve and pains trying to adjust the human ear to the digital modulation.

Although the TDMA with the advanced codec is better than the IMBE, nothing beats conventional analog on scene. Something to consider if anyone actually has a hand here in the OC processs.

That's why we still use it. Trying playing in a basement fire and getting a channel grant and then having intelligible voice based on how everyone screams into the SCBA.

As previously stated numerous times in this post, FD is NOT moving fireground ops to the trunked system. This will remain on the UHF analog 16 Channel Plan adopted by the county a few years ago. I can't speak on a definite timeline for the system going on line but would keep an ear out over the spring/summer to start hearing something.......
 

APX8000

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I heard they haven't even put a shovel in the ground for some of the sites that needed to be developed....


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PJH

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Cak - the fireground it won't be, but IC's will be near running trucks, pumps, chainsaws, etc.

This issue is still being worked on at NIST and other agencies and groups.
 

Thunderknight

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Isn't neighboring Rockland on 700 Phase 2 for all dispatch operations, with UHF analog for fire ground?

If it works well for them, then what is the logic to assume it would be a bad choice in Orange?
 

GTR8000

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Isn't neighboring Rockland on 700 Phase 2 for all dispatch operations, with UHF analog for fire ground?

Yep.

If it works well for them, then what is the logic to assume it would be a bad choice in Orange?

No logic at all.


This system doesn't even have a control channel on the air yet, and already all of the experts are weighing in. Truly amazing.
 
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DaveNF2G

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Cak - the fireground it won't be, but IC's will be near running trucks, pumps, chainsaws, etc.

This issue is still being worked on at NIST and other agencies and groups.

The big problem seems to be non-compliance with operating standards.

In a true NIMS-based IC system, the IC would be nowhere near "trucks, pumps, chainsaws, etc." The CP would be at a safe location away from the main action. Participants in the IC would not need numerous radios to talk to each other because they would be in the same place interacting face to face.

"Interoperability" between disparate services (i.e. police and fire) is also provided with a real command post, where the command personnel from all agencies are physically present.
 

PJH

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No, not really.

I don't want an IC sitting in his car calling shots and not being able to directly see and know the incident. I've worked with Chiefs that have done that, and the results are typically poor.

Having total situational awareness helps the IC make informed decisions. Hiding in a tent or truck doesn't.

Typically though if your at a tent stage it's a rather large incident.

Most day to day operations isn't a tent incident.

From personal experience - due to circumstances I was in command of a large incident last year that covered two states, three counties and 8 fire departments along with two federal agencies. Initially assuming command I was committed to certain resouces due to manpower. Running the incident confined to a truck and removed from what is going on first hand is no where near ideal.

I'll never do that again if I can avoid it at all.

https://youtu.be/mv1OzPxBC84
 

GTR8000

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No, not really.

I don't want an IC sitting in his car calling shots and not being able to directly see and know the incident. I've worked with Chiefs that have done that, and the results are typically poor.

Having total situational awareness helps the IC make informed decisions. Hiding in a tent or truck doesn't.

Uh, no. That's what the Operations officer is for, not the Incident Commander.

The IC remains at the command post, while the Operations officer is his eyes and ears on the fireground, and all sector officers report to Operations.

For small incidents, one of the sector officers usually serves as the operations officer.

And no, this doesn't need to be some full blown incident. The command post can be as simple as the fire chief sitting in his vehicle, maintaining an overall perspective of the scene without micromanaging everything (which is what you've described).

What's important is that he remain in one spot so that other agencies such as PD, EMS, utilities, media, etc. have a fixed location to establish contact with him.

Anyhow, this thread is getting way off topic now, so let's bring the focus back to the status of Orange County's trunked system, not fireground tactics.
 

SCPD

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I need to backtrack a little bit to give everyone a little history about how things were before OC911 came into existence:

The Orange County Sheriff's Office "339" provided dispatch Services for Town of Goshen PD, Village of Goshen PD, Town of Chester PD, Village of Chester PD, Village of Florida PD and a few other PDs that I cannot remember at the moment. For many years, they were on a lowband radio system in the 33-39mhz band. In the early 90s, they switched over to a VHF radio system with a frequency of 155.850. There was only 3 towers for this VHF system, 1 tower in Goshen, 1 on Grahmsville & 1 on Beacon. Coverage on mobile radios was decent. Portable coverage was crappy unless you were very close to one of the towers. The PDs that had their own dispatchers were Tuxedo, Tuxedo Park, Woodbury, Harriman, Monroe, Cornwall, New Windsor, City of Newburgh, Town of Newburgh, Walden, City of Middletown, Town of Wallkill and Town of Crawford (who was dispatched by NYSP). These PDs either had their own VHF repeaters or shared VHF repeaters with each other. Most to them had decent mobile & portable radio coverage.

Fire Dispatch "KEE 315" provided fire dispatch services for all departments expect for Tuxedo, Woodbury, Monroe, Cornwall, New Windsor, Vails Gate, the FDs that cover the Town of Newburgh, City of Newburgh, City of Middletown (I may have left out a few). KEE 315 and some of the departments listed above paged out fire calls on 154.205. At the time, I think there was 4 towers used for paging: Arden, Beacon, Graham & Local. It was up to the dispatchers to select the correct tower for the department they were paging. All communications into KEE 315 were on 46.22 and all communications out of KEE 315 were on 46.16. All truck to truck communications were done on 46.16. When units were operating at an incident, they would often use 46.30 & 46.40 for fire ground. Fire Police used 46.12. Since all of the sites were high power and most apparatus had 110 watt mobile radios, truck to truck and truck to dispatch communications were halfway decent. Fire Ground communications were terrible if you were inside of the concrete & steel building. Realizing this, many departments began using VHF or UHF portable radios for FG communications.

EMS Communications were a giant mess back then too. Some volunteer ambulance services (Chester, Goshen & some others that I cannot recall at the moment) were dispatched by a private answering service (Cullens Communications), paging was done with little Motorola Keynote pagers. The answering service had to call a phone number, speak the dispatch message, hang up the phone and wait for the page to be sent in the order it was received. They also provided answering services for plumbers, electricians, doctors officers and hospitals. A page for a plumber could have priority over an EMS page if the page for the plumber was sent before the EMS page. Communications between the ambulance services and the answering service were done on 153.860. This frequency was also used by the OC Sheriff's Office dispatchers as "WAU718" to keep track of what ambulances were in and out of service in the County. The other ambulance services, who were not dispatched by Cullens Answering Service, were dispatched by the local PDs that had their own dispatchers i.e. Tuxedo, Monroe, Woodbury, New Windsor, Town of Newburgh, Cornwall, Warwick, Greenwood Lake.

I may have accidentally forgot some information about how the services were dispatched, so you guys are free to chime in and add in anything that I may have left out.
 
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APX8000

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I remember when we used MRD 154.875...Base 1, Base 3, Base 4 and Base 5 all sharing airtime. Well I shouldn't say sharing because City of Newburgh kept the chatter up. Back then the site on Cronomer Hill was pushing a 1/4 kilowatt. Town of Newburgh was the first one to switch over to EDACS and we had one of the first trunking Uniden bearcats in dispatch to monitor them. Then New Windsor went to EDACS. City of Newburgh was next and MRD was just Cornwall Town and Village until they finally bought in. Now the channel sits quiet, but still in all the consoles. Funny when EDACS goes down a lot of the newer guys don't even know it there.

I also remember when Cronomer Valley put up the first UHF to lowband link for fire. System was built by Crudele using Orion low bands and a channel steering by PL which I think was built by WB2BQW. And I was one to say "KEE315" and "36 Control."


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KC2GSP

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Cronomers UHF link is the best. Departments in western orange were even using it reliably until they made their own
 
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