Orlando Digital
- Thread starter Patch42
- Start date
- Status
No is there a link online to it?
Wouldnt be suprised though, in an all metal building with the prospect of being trapped and all you can think of is the AT&T (Cingular) Commercials - I.e. Cat got your toungue?, Earl got Your toungue?
I am sorry for making light of it, but in the simplest terms the audio is like a PCS phone but worse, it is not as clear as a pcs phone, if the signal is degraded you hear digitized noise.
In Analog days if the signal was weak at least you could hear something, now in digital days it is all or nothing, yes granted it is a more efficent use of the spectrum (Unless You consult Nextel on that Charlie Foxtrot)
So I don't blame the FF's for being upset, their bosses were sold the newest neatest toy that was promised to be the best thing since chocolate sauce on Heidi Klum, and now the truth comes out.
Wouldnt be suprised though, in an all metal building with the prospect of being trapped and all you can think of is the AT&T (Cingular) Commercials - I.e. Cat got your toungue?, Earl got Your toungue?
I am sorry for making light of it, but in the simplest terms the audio is like a PCS phone but worse, it is not as clear as a pcs phone, if the signal is degraded you hear digitized noise.
In Analog days if the signal was weak at least you could hear something, now in digital days it is all or nothing, yes granted it is a more efficent use of the spectrum (Unless You consult Nextel on that Charlie Foxtrot)
So I don't blame the FF's for being upset, their bosses were sold the newest neatest toy that was promised to be the best thing since chocolate sauce on Heidi Klum, and now the truth comes out.
link to story
Here is the link for the story about the Orlando Fire Dept. and the their new digital system: http://www.wesh.com/news/16348500/detail.html
Here is the link for the story about the Orlando Fire Dept. and the their new digital system: http://www.wesh.com/news/16348500/detail.html
I'm not surprised. How many times have we read of digital systems being problematic for firefighters, or fail to work well in any noisy environment?
MANY times.
You'd think that by now, various departments nationwide would have communicated witih
each other and chosen to stay analog for the time being.
Elroy
MANY times.
You'd think that by now, various departments nationwide would have communicated witih
each other and chosen to stay analog for the time being.
Elroy
I love that you people keep talking about fire fighters like their job is any different than law enforcement. Please you folks have to got to realize that digital works fine. It's used by many police and fire agencies nationwide. I know many of you don't want to buy digital scanners but that's the price of the hobby. Remember when trunking came out. The same comments, it's doesn't work, you can't get channel grants. It's all in the design of the system and no Elroy you don't get to listen to everything.
Ok GCR I understand, so my question is if digital works so well, and mind you i am not trying to be argumentative here, but time and time again we are told to believe this and time and time again there are issues like this coming up, Do You really want to trust a firefighters or cops life to something that is not performing up to the way it has been sold?
and since i was a firefighter, the reason we focus on it so much is that there are more times that you will find a firefighter in a low visibility,noisy, chaotic situation, Firefighters can get lost in a building, crap happens, and they may only have 1 shot at getting a call for help, if that call fails to go out that firefighter is dead, or many firefighters are dead
So no matter what Firefighters are in a more critical siituation, Structure Fires, Hazmat, Etc Etc, I am not saying law enforcements job is any less critical or important.
So Lets say an officer is on a domestic (They say they are the most dangerous) and lets say the unlikely happened and he had no backup, the guy was slashing his wife with a knife, is he going to wait for backup? ok lets say he doesnt wait and the perp stabs him, now he is bleeding and no one is around, but he has a wonderful new hi tech digital radio
but because he is in a bad area or bad luck his signal doesnt get through, now with an analog radio there is a better chance that at least some noise and his radio ID got out to the comm center, ok then at least they know somethings up, but because his radio was digital nothing went out, so the officer unfortunately bleeds out, only to be discovered 10- 15 minutes later when the backup arrives.
is the new fangled digital system really really worth the loss of an Officer or Firefighter?
Granted I have listened to many digital systems, Starcom21, Safe-T, MARCS, AWIN, Conneticut, etc etc, and those systems worked, they are not totally encrypted, they were extensively tested prior to deployment, the money saved on not implementing unneccessary
encryption boards was used in making a system that actually worked, but you need to ask the People in those states how well it works.
Orlando threw the system together and hurridley put it on line, and encrypted out of paranoia, if an officer or firefighter dies as a result, then someone needs to go to prison
and since i was a firefighter, the reason we focus on it so much is that there are more times that you will find a firefighter in a low visibility,noisy, chaotic situation, Firefighters can get lost in a building, crap happens, and they may only have 1 shot at getting a call for help, if that call fails to go out that firefighter is dead, or many firefighters are dead
So no matter what Firefighters are in a more critical siituation, Structure Fires, Hazmat, Etc Etc, I am not saying law enforcements job is any less critical or important.
So Lets say an officer is on a domestic (They say they are the most dangerous) and lets say the unlikely happened and he had no backup, the guy was slashing his wife with a knife, is he going to wait for backup? ok lets say he doesnt wait and the perp stabs him, now he is bleeding and no one is around, but he has a wonderful new hi tech digital radio
but because he is in a bad area or bad luck his signal doesnt get through, now with an analog radio there is a better chance that at least some noise and his radio ID got out to the comm center, ok then at least they know somethings up, but because his radio was digital nothing went out, so the officer unfortunately bleeds out, only to be discovered 10- 15 minutes later when the backup arrives.
is the new fangled digital system really really worth the loss of an Officer or Firefighter?
Granted I have listened to many digital systems, Starcom21, Safe-T, MARCS, AWIN, Conneticut, etc etc, and those systems worked, they are not totally encrypted, they were extensively tested prior to deployment, the money saved on not implementing unneccessary
encryption boards was used in making a system that actually worked, but you need to ask the People in those states how well it works.
Orlando threw the system together and hurridley put it on line, and encrypted out of paranoia, if an officer or firefighter dies as a result, then someone needs to go to prison
The answer is YES digital works fine. Who are you to say it was put together "hurridely"
What ever that means. If you mean that there was no engineering study and some hillbilly came along and just changed out transmitters I think you are smoking funny stuff.
There is no guarantee that any radio, digital, analog or tin cans will work on any given moment at any given time. I can tell you that from experience it works well.
In Palm Beach Co. three cities use it for all public safety, special units of the sheriff's office use it; in Broward Co. Hollywood uses it. Coral Gables uses EDACS digital.
Jacksonville uses it. Is everyone wrong or is it a reluctance on others to upgrade to a digital scanner if they want to listen?
What ever that means. If you mean that there was no engineering study and some hillbilly came along and just changed out transmitters I think you are smoking funny stuff.
There is no guarantee that any radio, digital, analog or tin cans will work on any given moment at any given time. I can tell you that from experience it works well.
In Palm Beach Co. three cities use it for all public safety, special units of the sheriff's office use it; in Broward Co. Hollywood uses it. Coral Gables uses EDACS digital.
Jacksonville uses it. Is everyone wrong or is it a reluctance on others to upgrade to a digital scanner if they want to listen?
jaymatt1978
Member
It's a fact digital radios have more problems than analog radios. More complex systems can have more things go wrong with them. It's just how it works. Type in "problems with public safety digital radios" and I bet you anything you'll find more public agencies complain abouut going digital than praise it. You have more investigations into the use of digital radios than any other piece of equipment! The technology is still in it's infantcy and has yet to pass the required tests on a consistant basis. Name me one digital trunked system tha t hasn't been recalled AT LEAST ONCE!
There's not a reluctance to buy a digital scanner. Everyone isn't wrong, they just think going digital is going to magically solved all their problems and it's not!!
There's not a reluctance to buy a digital scanner. Everyone isn't wrong, they just think going digital is going to magically solved all their problems and it's not!!
- Joined
- May 19, 2008
- Messages
- 1
Being that i`m a firefigther/paramedic. I`ll have to say in our work condtions there is a hell of alot more noise than sitting in a patrol car. I wont hold your comment against you however. You most likely have never been inside a structure fire in full gear. Not to mention being a pump operator.
Mr. Wolf, first never assume because I will tell you that you are wrong.
I have done both. Even Justin in NJ will have to get up to digital speed. Digital radios are here to stay despite the IAFF and scanner buffs. Digital radios work everyday.
A big fan, no, any interest in a radio company no;
Do you still want to wait for color tv to be perfected before you buy it? That was the line 40 years ago. Analog tv goes away 2/09.
Times they are changing. The only constant is change.
I have done both. Even Justin in NJ will have to get up to digital speed. Digital radios are here to stay despite the IAFF and scanner buffs. Digital radios work everyday.
A big fan, no, any interest in a radio company no;
Do you still want to wait for color tv to be perfected before you buy it? That was the line 40 years ago. Analog tv goes away 2/09.
Times they are changing. The only constant is change.
- Joined
- May 19, 2008
- Messages
- 1
Right i agree with you on digital. It just seemed you were going other places with your comment.
gcr33 said:
No. Not all the time it doesn't, anyway.
It's still a fact that the codecs used in digital radios aren't optimized for use in a noisy
environment, which pretty much defines where fire departments work. This DOES
result in intelligibility issues more often than anyone would like.
Further compounding the problem is the fact that the mics that are integrated into headsets
used in bunker gear are not particularly good sounding mics even under the best conditions
in a fully analog system. In fact, I've heard some that their sound is such that I would be
charitable if I were to say it was "significantly sub-standard". Add THAT into the digital
equation and you've got intelligibility problems galore.
YES, sometimes they work fine, but when you're talking about officer/firefighter safety,
I don't think SOMETIMES or even MOST OF THE TIME is adequate when you're discussing
a communications link that often IS critical for safety.
I'm not in any camp about radio brands. I deal with ALL of them. I learned Motorola first,
M/A-Com (GE) second, and have experience with Kenwood, Icom, Yaesu, Vertex/Standard, Relm, and a few others. And I hear whatever
I choose to, short of encrypted traffic, provided of course that it's within listening range
with a good Yagi antenna. I've experimented with digital and analog modes of operation
with every radio brand and type I've laid my hands on that had the capability, and the'yre
all good to very good in quiet conditions, but with every one of them, start talking with
wind blowing in the microphone, that's bad enough on an analog radio, but it's even
worse on a digital radio. The codecs just don't work well without a good signal to noise
ratio.
I haven't checked this and don't have any way to do so, but I heard that some codecs
not commonly in use (like VSELP) don't even work well with some specific languages,
as they weren't designed for the phonetic variations endemic to some languages, such
as some African languages that utilize glottals, clicks, and pops.
Elroy
gcr i respect You and Your Opinion, however i really just have to disagree,
however i really take offense at the attack on my opinion by saying i am smoking funny stuff. does that really accomplish anything to result to insults, i though better of you.
as well as the argument that we don't want to buy digital scanners is moot as well, i have a 396 and 996 so what more digital scanners do i need? was thinking of an xts5000 but i really have better priorities.
and i never said digital was bad, but poorly planned digital systems
I go through Illinois alot and Listen to StarCom21 and the System works well, and they already have sites on 700, audio quality is clear and no problems, it probably has to do with the fact that Schaumberg is in Illinois and Motorola Owns and Operates it.
What I dont understand is this is a pro scanner board yet we have people with nothing better to do than to come in and offer nothing constructive to the argument, mostly ex sys admins with no life and love to attack scanner listeners for their hobby.
yet when a scanner listener comes up with a valid concern, those same people attack them and their reputation with childish insults and general uninteligent spinning of the facts.
however i really take offense at the attack on my opinion by saying i am smoking funny stuff. does that really accomplish anything to result to insults, i though better of you.
as well as the argument that we don't want to buy digital scanners is moot as well, i have a 396 and 996 so what more digital scanners do i need? was thinking of an xts5000 but i really have better priorities.
and i never said digital was bad, but poorly planned digital systems
I go through Illinois alot and Listen to StarCom21 and the System works well, and they already have sites on 700, audio quality is clear and no problems, it probably has to do with the fact that Schaumberg is in Illinois and Motorola Owns and Operates it.
What I dont understand is this is a pro scanner board yet we have people with nothing better to do than to come in and offer nothing constructive to the argument, mostly ex sys admins with no life and love to attack scanner listeners for their hobby.
yet when a scanner listener comes up with a valid concern, those same people attack them and their reputation with childish insults and general uninteligent spinning of the facts.
Last edited:
One thing that has to be taken into consideration but that hasn't is that Orlando broke away from the County's SmartZone switch and now has no roaming capabilties that they had prior. In doing this they probably took at a hit on the coverage footprint because now they can't roam over to the County should a user get into an area that the City doesn't cover well.
I feel, being a SmartZone administrator, as this to be more of an impact to the end user rather than the analog/digital argument.
GCR brings up some valid points about other successful deployments in SE Florida, but not all of them roam wide area with all of their tg's so similiar issues do exist elsewhere but just aren't advertised as much.
I feel, being a SmartZone administrator, as this to be more of an impact to the end user rather than the analog/digital argument.
GCR brings up some valid points about other successful deployments in SE Florida, but not all of them roam wide area with all of their tg's so similiar issues do exist elsewhere but just aren't advertised as much.
trooper890
Member
orlando
Your right. It hasnt really been talked about much, and the end users have certainly noticed.
Previously the primaries, and other select TG's were broadcast and were allowed roam onto the County sites. No longer.
Your right. It hasnt really been talked about much, and the end users have certainly noticed.
Previously the primaries, and other select TG's were broadcast and were allowed roam onto the County sites. No longer.
Information I heard today from a VERY reliable source is that while a demo P25 system is up
in the Orlando area, it's only a demo system and the budget office is being a very difficult
customer. They think the 40 million dollar upgrade cost from Motorola is excessive, and won't
go for it.
It's not MY channel you've got to watch for further information, but as the saying goes, "Wach this channel for future announcements and updates regarding this story."
It's FAR from a done deal. And other companies that can offer fully compliant P25 Phase 2 upgrades to the existing SmartZone infrastructure, for HUGE cost savings, WILL be
giving presentations and doing live demonstrations in the near future.
I can't give any details but I will say this: One of the principals that will be involved in
this development is someone I work with, and in an indirect manner, work FOR.
It's not inconceivable that I might get a direct hand in supporting the demo(s). But it's
way too early to tell.
Elroy
in the Orlando area, it's only a demo system and the budget office is being a very difficult
customer. They think the 40 million dollar upgrade cost from Motorola is excessive, and won't
go for it.
It's not MY channel you've got to watch for further information, but as the saying goes, "Wach this channel for future announcements and updates regarding this story."
It's FAR from a done deal. And other companies that can offer fully compliant P25 Phase 2 upgrades to the existing SmartZone infrastructure, for HUGE cost savings, WILL be
giving presentations and doing live demonstrations in the near future.
I can't give any details but I will say this: One of the principals that will be involved in
this development is someone I work with, and in an indirect manner, work FOR.
It's not inconceivable that I might get a direct hand in supporting the demo(s). But it's
way too early to tell.
Elroy
climberkid
KM4FFB
thank you so much for this update. i was completely unaware that it wasnt a completely done deal. will stay alert for more info.
- Status
