Orlando, FL Police to Encrypt all police talkgroups

[PATnKIM]

I Think

Several said "they think" there is a law. Has anyone actually found it? The City of Winter Park (In Orange County Fla) has been totally encrypted for several years and I've not heard of any lawsuits. OCSO already encrypts several talkgroups as does OPD. It won't be long and all central florida scanners will be picking up gibberish.

I think there was a court ruling in Florida that will force them to allow listen only access to police and fire frequencies by the news media and maybe the public. Of course you would have to buy a very expensive radio and allow them to program what you are allowed to hear.

 

[brey1234]

a question

I have searched Google and could not come up with any documentation concerning encryption for Orlando police/fire. Where did the info come from?

 

[donc13]

What are they hiding? 9 times out of 10 if an agency encrypts ALL of thier radio traffic, they are hiding something. If they only encrypt the sensitive channels, that's fine, and makes sense.

And what is it you think they'd be trying to hide? I mean if you really believe that, then you must have some clue about what they are not doing now, but want to start doing as soon as their radios are encrypted.


OR....is just possible....they don't want even routine traffic in the hands of bad guys? You know, like they've got a report of an alarm at this or that place, thus tipping of places that do or don't have alarms, or letting the folks comitting a burglary that it's time to go...and so forth.

It's pretty easy to forget to switch to an encrypted channel during the middle of a conversation...and let something out...than to simply encrypt all their channels.

I don't know a thing about Orlando, but I'll bet you dollars to doughnuts, the local TV stations, newspapers and radio stations will be able to purchase radios and listen in to normal dispatch channels.

 

[kikito]

You know, like they've got a report of an alarm at this or that place, thus tipping of places that do or don't have alarms, or letting the folks comitting a burglary that it's time to go...and so forth.

Isn't that what MDT's, cellphones, Nextel, pagers, etc. are for and used extensively in many areas?

Having those extra communication devices might be money better spent than outfitting radios with the encryption capabilities plus you have the maintenance, upkeep, problems, etc. that goes with encrypted comms. Not to mention, it's just one more layer of possible failures and works against *simpler* interoperability.

Having those 'extra' devices provides a sort of backup or alternative way to communicate plus can be used for many other things like running checks and other routine work that will free up dispatchers and workers at the PSAP. If you ask me I'd rather spend a department's money in many other things first before wasting it in encryption that does one thing only, but that's just another opinion.

 

[donc13]

Ask not what your country can do for you but what your country can do TO you. We have this fake war on terrorism looking for an invisible enemy. The government that are the terrorists say we need to give up more liberty to keep us same while the damn borders stay wide open-what a crock. My family has been in law enforcement for over 20 years-encryption=corruption. CIA stands for cocaine import agency. Can you people figure it out yet? Moneyrola+no bid contracts with encryption=win win situation for all government corruption. I thought the taxpayers have a say so with the taxpayers money paying for this stuff. Get educated @infowars.com

Better watch out for the black heliocopters. And wear your tin foil hat.

Your post is one of the most absurd posts I've read yet.

 

[GTR8000]

A lot of these guys are either conspiracy theorists ("the local PD and FD is out to get us!!"), or they're just bitter about only being able to listen to the local taxicabs in their so-called "command centers" now! :twisted:

 

[PATnKIM]

I have searched Google and could not come up with any documentation concerning encryption for Orlando police/fire. Where did the info come from?

It's right there on the Radio Reference website

 

[SCPD]

Whether their radios are encrypted are not I do believe that the non-sensitive communications (i.e. SWAT, etc) are still matters of public record. Although it wouldn't be real-time wouldn't it be interesting if someone with enough money (say a newspaper) went to the office every day and requested a copy of the radio tapes for the previous 24 hours?

It might be a matter of making it known that you and 100 of your buddies will come in day after day with FOIA requests for the tapes. Even though you pay the costs it still takes time away from their staffers. No agency has enough extra people around to deal with continual requests for radio tapes on a daily basis. The reasonable alternative, of course, would be to allow public access in real-time

 

[n4voxgill]

The Florida Public Records law is Chapter 119 of the Florida Statutes. It has more exemptions as to what must be released, than about any other statute in the books. Under Chapter 119 they may not release any record that has criminal invesigative or criminal history information. So each call would have to be researched to make sure that no comments were made about suspects, no local lookouts, etc.

Then Chapter 365.173 states that no records can be released that contains, the name, address, telephone number or any other information that could identify the caller, if the call came in on 911. So every call would have to have that information redacted.

The Attorney General has issued an opinion that the agency may require you to pay a deposit in advance. See they don't have to give instant service. As you say, no extra people, so you would pay your fee, a sizeable one, each day and the requests would go on the pile with the others for action when they have time.

These are not single channel tapes. Each talkgroup would have to be searched, so it would take several days to go through a 24 hours time period.

The caller information is sent out over the radio as it is not a record at that time. But once recorded it is now protected.

Orlando has well over a thousand graduates of the Citizens Police Academy and many of them volunteer for duties that they may be issued a radio. Orlando has an active Citizens on Patrol (COPS) that drive around in neighborhoods in old police cars looking for suspicious activity. Each member on duty is issued a radio. There is no way to use the radio for illegal activities without some of them hearing it. Not to mention that OPD is very agressive at rooting out unlawful acts by police officers. Internal affairs does not take it easy on anyone.

 

[WX4JCW]

My report on this that was posted about a year ago, said that the Fire Department was the first unit to buy new radios with encryption capability and pushed to upgrade the infrastructure. The crime rate in Orlando has skyrocketed. The actual plan to upgrade to digital and encrypted was made about 5 years ago. It took several budget cycles to get the funds. It is laughable that they want to hide anything. They believe that security at all levels is a top priority. Encryption is just part of it. All radio recordings and documents are open for inspection. I submitted the original plan and budget request for changing to a trunked system in 1984, Encyrption was one of ultimate goals, but it has taken 24 years of budget requests to get to this point. Now that it is going encrypted, there are some other agencies that want to come on the system.

In a system with a thousand radios, there is always one nutcase that will drop a dime to the press and try to stir up trouble where there is not any. So hiding from the public is impossible.

Gill,

How can You say that OPD has nothing to Hide, OPD probably wants to hide the fact that the murder rate in Orlando has jumped. and Chief McCoy had to even run patrols himself to show that he was actually doing something. (Oh My god i feel so safe now).
Hmm what else could they cover up:
#1. Response Times
#2. Innapropriate Behavior

I could think of other things, but from the case history of certian law enforcement officials (Orange County, FL and ohh you probably didnt hear Orange County, CA whose sheriff was federally indicted and they encrypt) but i guess we are nutcases and want to stir up trouble, well kiss my rear end i was wrong, i should always believe what my public officials say.

I will agree that Certain Talkgroups I.E. SWAT, Counter Terrorism Ops, Narcotics, Auto Theft should be encrypted. However lets face the fact that if 9-11 had never happened the money would have hardly been allocated (and as for the precious trunked system, well that has worked pretty well but for the FD it isnt always reliable), so Sheriff Beary, Chief McCoy, and Winter park can hide all their skeletons through an encrypted system and shut out the media, and the average "Law Abiding" citizens from Monitoring their public servants and holding them accountable.

do you sincerely believe that if Al Queda wanted to crack the communications system that they do not have the resources to do so, Encryption might make it more difficult, but with all the money that is pumped into the organization i am pretty sure they run a higher budget than Slo PD.

Sure Radio Recordings and Documents are subject to inspection, but WHO provides those recordings, and who decides what is given out and what is not. hmm not too hard for that to be figured out. (Been in the business so i figured that one out all by myself)

I did not "drop the dime" to the media but i am so thankful someone did, i believe in accountability, Opd knows that the media will not spend time going over every single recording or document that they provide and we all know not everything will be fully disclosed.

Gill your comments border on irresponsibility and i really think you have been drinking too much of the Kool-Aid that your former employers spewed, or did you mix it yourself and get them all paranoid.

and i ask myself why does a person who is a fan of closing up radio system so the poor insane nerdy no life live at home scanner listeners and the evil news media cannot listen.

why are you on a scanner board then?

Controlling the media and information is the first step to a police state. call it a conspiracy theory if you want, I am normally not agitated by this kind of stuff but this situation is fishy

 

[WX4JCW]

And what is it you think they'd be trying to hide? I mean if you really believe that, then you must have some clue about what they are not doing now, but want to start doing as soon as their radios are encrypted.


OR....is just possible....they don't want even routine traffic in the hands of bad guys? You know, like they've got a report of an alarm at this or that place, thus tipping of places that do or don't have alarms, or letting the folks comitting a burglary that it's time to go...and so forth.

It's pretty easy to forget to switch to an encrypted channel during the middle of a conversation...and let something out...than to simply encrypt all their channels.

I don't know a thing about Orlando, but I'll bet you dollars to doughnuts, the local TV stations, newspapers and radio stations will be able to purchase radios and listen in to normal dispatch channels.

Nope, no radios are to be released outside the agency, WFTV has recieved a response basically saying they are out of luck.

 

[WX4JCW]

A lot of these guys are either conspiracy theorists ("the local PD and FD is out to get us!!"), or they're just bitter about only being able to listen to the local taxicabs in their so-called "command centers" now! :twisted:

that is entirely unfounded

I am a former dispatcher for both fire and ems at the very agencies we are talking about, i am definately not bitter, I am a scanner listener and proud of it, definately not a conspiracy person but trying to explain it is like trying to talk to a rock i suppose

you really have to stop drinking Gill's Kool Aid

 

[WX4JCW]

Good for them!! I'm all for encryption and digital systems that are unmonitorable! Keeps the whackers and buffs from interfering with us trying to do our JOBS! :twisted:

PS - I just love all the conspiracy theorists that claim we're trying to hide something or we're all part of some huge government "police state" coverup! :lol:

ok so why are you on a scanner related board with all the whackers and buffs as you put it, hmmmm i wonder

 

[GTR8000]

that is entirely unfounded

I am a former dispatcher for both fire and ems at the very agencies we are talking about, i am definately not bitter, I am a scanner listener and proud of it, definately not a conspiracy person but trying to explain it is like trying to talk to a rock i suppose

you really have to stop drinking Gill's Kool Aid

I don't know this "Gill" you refer to, nor have I read any other post in this thread except yours in which my posts were quoted. Frankly, it's insulting for you to insinuate that as a professional veteran of emergency services, I'm not entitled to my own opinion on any given matter, and that I "drink" anyone else's "Kool Aid". My opinion is based on many years of being out in the field and having to deal firsthand with that which I speak of. Yes, out in the field, not sitting behind a desk in an air conditioned room!

ok so why are you on a scanner related board with all the whackers and buffs as you put it, hmmmm i wonder

Keep wondering! It is still a free country, these United States, correct? Or has that "police state" gone into effect here already? :lol:


I would like to invite anyone who disagrees with my opinion to click the following link, which will add me to your ignore list and spare you from having to ever read another one of my posts. Thanks!

http://www.radioreference.com/forums/profile.php?do=addlist&userlist=ignore&u=130490

 

[WileyClarkson]

encryption

Sommervell Cnty So (TX) has used encryption for a number of years on their Kenwood radio system. They, however, have used a more reasonable policy of using encryption only for transmitting sensitive information and kept all normal communications non-encryption.

I work for security at a nuclear power plant as a Central Alarm Station Operator and Armed Officer. We used encryption off and on for a number of yeras. We found it to be unreliable as the Motorola Saber radios would loose the encryption programming if the battery failed or the battery was changed and the process took more than 10 seconds. We also found that the Motorola system inhibited normal performance of the handheld radios by making communications from otherwise normal signal areas almost impossible.

Regarding HIPAA, this is a very confusing law that has suffered from way too many wrongfull interpretations regrading personal health privacy. I have been contesting one of those wrong interpretations by my employer and have had to research the law. For law enforcement, it seems to apply tonly to patient identity and medical information being transmitted by clear voice communications on a 2-way radio system that could be heard by unauthorized listeners. In our company's case, our employer adopted a policy last year of requiring a physician to reveal personal medical information in written form regarding off the job illness and injury of an employee in order to return to work. This is an apparent mis-interpretation by my project manager to eliminate employees he didn't like.

 

[WX4JCW]

I don't know this "Gill" you refer to, nor have I read any other post in this thread except yours in which my posts were quoted. Frankly, it's insulting for you to insinuate that as a professional veteran of emergency services, I'm not entitled to my own opinion on any given matter, and that I "drink" anyone else's "Kool Aid". My opinion is based on many years of being out in the field and having to deal firsthand with that which I speak of. Yes, out in the field, not sitting behind a desk in an air conditioned room!



Keep wondering! It is still a free country, these United States, correct? Or has that "police state" gone into effect here already? :lol:


I would like to invite anyone who disagrees with my opinion to click the following link, which will add me to your ignore list and spare you from having to ever read another one of my posts. Thanks!





http://www.radioreference.com/forums/profile.php?do=addlist&userlist=ignore&u=130490

No need to put you on ignore,opposing opinions are always welcome, i guess the air condition has affected my brain, anyway ricky, since you are so bitter by being burnt out
by sooo many long long years in the field. well i guessd thats an excuse,i spent many years in the field and in the so called air conditioning, so if you want to continue the attempt at insulting me you have my PM, no sense wasting everyones time with this ridiculous dribble..

i am not insinuating that you are not entitled to your opinion but that your opinion is irrelevant and misguided

I am sorry but I usually keep quiet but comments on this board have really ticked me off, i am no longer participating in this thread as it will get out of control

 

[celeryfed]

Bull

It has less to do with DHS and more to do with HIPPA and related privacy regs. The PD in my little community of 5000 went AEGIS digital several years ago. I have AEGIS capabiity via one of my radios from another governmental agency and I can assure you that the traffic is strictly normal PD stuff, but they believe they're protecting citizens privacy by using a non-monitorable system.

HIPAA has nothing to do with police departments.

 

[donc13]

Isn't that what MDT's, cellphones, Nextel, pagers, etc. are for and used extensively in many areas?

Having those extra communication devices might be money better spent than outfitting radios with the encryption capabilities plus you have the maintenance, upkeep, problems, etc. that goes with encrypted comms. Not to mention, it's just one more layer of possible failures and works against *simpler* interoperability.

Having those 'extra' devices provides a sort of backup or alternative way to communicate plus can be used for many other things like running checks and other routine work that will free up dispatchers and workers at the PSAP. If you ask me I'd rather spend a department's money in many other things first before wasting it in encryption that does one thing only, but that's just another opinion.

Yea...that's what MDT's are for...in those places that have them. Nextel's, cellphones, etc...think about what you're saying. That's an extra step for the dispatcher, for the cop and another piece of equipment that can break. As a backup..fine, as the primary device...NO WAY!

No matter what...a cop's PRIME method of immediate communication is the radio, not an MDT, not a cellphone, not a call box on a phone pole, not anything...except the 2 way radio.

Encryption is a viable and usable option for public safety and does NOT lead to anyone "hiding" something from the public. AND I know of no jurisdiction where the media is not permitted access to unencrypted output from public safety systems in real time. That doesn't mean there aren't any...but I'd be amazed if there were one bigger than a 3 man dept.

 

[donc13]

Nope, no radios are to be released outside the agency, WFTV has recieved a response basically saying they are out of luck.

No...they don't have to sell them PD radios, but every agency I am aware of, allows the media to purchase their own radios...and will program in the channels that are appropriate. The media in some cities...are even assigned call signs and permitted to transmit information on emergencies they come across, such as injury traffic accidents, robberies in progress or burglaries in progress.

For reference...I retired 10 years ago, after 26 years as a police officer in Denver, CO.

In Denver...we even used to have press room, where the media could sit and they could listen live to any of our "public" dispatch channels. I don't know if it still exists...but it did 10 years ago.

 

[AZScanner]

Yea...that's what MDT's are for...in those places that have them. Nextel's, cellphones, etc...think about what you're saying. That's an extra step for the dispatcher, for the cop and another piece of equipment that can break. As a backup..fine, as the primary device...NO WAY!

No matter what...a cop's PRIME method of immediate communication is the radio, not an MDT, not a cellphone, not a call box on a phone pole, not anything...except the 2 way radio.

Encryption is a viable and usable option for public safety and does NOT lead to anyone "hiding" something from the public. AND I know of no jurisdiction where the media is not permitted access to unencrypted output from public safety systems in real time. That doesn't mean there aren't any...but I'd be amazed if there were one bigger than a 3 man dept.

The Phoenix PRWN trunked system used to run all chase channels encrypted. And no, the media was not permitted to listen. As far as I know, the media is also not permitted to monitor Orange County Sheriff's in California either. Both are far larger than "3 man outfits".

The encryption capabilities of our system have also been abused. Shortly after the chase channels opened up, a 998 (officer involved shooting) went out. All was well until the media started showing up, then it was moved to C-14 which is an encrypted channel. I've also been on scenes where the local PD here refused to give any info and threatened all media on scene with arrest if they didn't leave the area just because some of us chose not to comply with a request to move to an area where none of the scene was visible (translation: they wanted to thump on a bad guy and we were there with cameras - they didn't like that). If you think the media and the cops get along like good buddies out here, think again.

-AZ