Saia Net

[Trbogeek]

PRE-DETERMINED keys. Need I say more? It's vendor (Motorola) specific. Going back to my stance on non-proprietary equipment or implementation....

Arc4 is a DMR III standard, and supported across most radio vendors.

 

[ak716]

That is another reason I'm glad I started seeing EP used on SaiaNet. From what I read here and elsewhere, EP is RC4/ADP (correct me if I'm wrong)... not readily accessible by most to "crack", while also "not tough enough" in the federal governments eyes/recommendations

 

[GTR8000]

256 bit encryption, per managed key, up to 255. Depending on the traffic, encryption may be nessesary. That being said, encryption "can" have negative impact on over all sysyem performance

Sorry, are you suggesting that TRBO Basic Privacy is 256 bit encryption? Surely not, as you must be aware it's only 16 bit encryption and the "keys" range from 001-255 and would take no more than a few hours of shooting a codeplug to land on the one in use.

Enhanced Privacy is 40 bit, aka RC4 or ARC4 or ADP depending on what radio you're programming. Even that is very weak, but at least the keys are 10 character HEX, so it would take a hell of a lot longer to figure that out.

 

[ak716]

256 bit encryption, per managed key, up to 255. Depending on the traffic, encryption may be nessesary. That being said, encryption "can" have negative impact on over all sysyem performance

I think I read in the System Planner somewhere that BP has no measurable effect, while EP may cause slightly reduced coverage?

 

[Trbogeek]

Sorry, are you suggesting that TRBO Basic Privacy is 256 bit encryption? Surely not, as you must be aware it's only 16 bit encryption and the "keys" range from 001-255 and would take no more than a few hours of shooting a codeplug to land on the one in use.

Enhanced Privacy is 40 bit, aka RC4 or ARC4 or ADP depending on what radio you're programming. Even that is very weak, but at least the keys are 10 character HEX, so it would take a hell of a lot longer to figure that out.

I wasn't referencing basic, but was waiting for the argument that P25 supports 256 bit, and why public safety grade. DMR III compatible radios, will support 256 bit encryption, and are compatable across radio platforms, so im told 😉

 

[Trbogeek]

I think I read in the System Planner somewhere that BP has no measurable effect, while EP may cause slightly reduced coverage?

EP can cause some dropped calls, when bit error increasss, so ive heard. interesting you have had access to a system planner

 

[ak716]

I wasn't referencing basic, but was waiting for the argument that P25 supports 256 bit, and why public safety grade. DMR III compatible radios, will support 256 bit encryption, and are compatable across radio platforms, so im told 😉

Also, from what I read, Mother M won't see the AES entitlement keys for XPR radios to be used in public safety because they wanna sell you a P25 radio and system

 

[Trbogeek]

Also, from what I read, Mother M won't see the AES entitlement keys for XPR radios to be used in public safety because they wanna sell you a P25 radio and system

True, but exceptions are made, and implemented in WNY……

 

[ak716]

And, we went WAY off track.....

 

[Trbogeek]

And, we went WAY off track.....

But good conversion

 

[Trbogeek]

But good conversion

Also, from what I read, Mother M won't see the AES entitlement keys for XPR radios to be used in public safety because they wanna sell you a P25 radio and system

BTW, the term "mother m" is fitting… .

 

[ak716]

EP can cause some dropped calls, when bit error increasss, so ive heard. interesting you have had access to a system planner

Google, you can find just about ANYTHING! Motorola MotoTRBO System Planner

 

[APX8000]

I get the coverage issue in Erie. If nothing else is available and an Agency wants enhanced coverage, then you'll obviously see the jump. I just hope system priorities are set up so Joe tow truck gets bonked before I do.

But in other areas where a countywide P25 system is in place, I don't get a jump. As a
matter of fact, I'd be doing the opposite and pushing everyone to the Countywide system.

 

[Trbogeek]

I get the coverage issue in Erie. If nothing else is available and an Agency wants enhanced coverage, then you'll obviously see the jump. I just hope system priorities are set up so Joe tow truck gets bonked before I do.

But in other areas where a countywide P25 system is in place, I don't get a jump. As a
matter of fact, I'd be doing the opposite and pushing everyone to the Countywide system.

For public safety, maybe because the radios are largely paid for with public dollars, but when taking into account the tax dollar burden, and over kill putting P25 anything, in school busses, DPW dump trucks, private sector EMS, AAA tow trucks, etc. All that and having publicly funded county, state, Government, in direct competition with private sector dealers, is at a minimum, unethical, and if digging through various laws regarding use of public monies, may even be illegal, but that's another debate.

Fortunately DMR III has preemption, and pre Tier 3 has TG priority.

 

[k2hz]

"not public safety grade" because it's not robust enough? Or because it's not P25?

You are correct that *many* of the counties where Saianet exists have their own P25 systems, but Erie County does not, nor does there seem to be a plan to build one. As far as I can tell, all of the public safety agencies that have moved to Saianet are in Erie County.

As a counter-example, Monroe County (where Saianet has a number of customers) does have a P25 system, and that system has numerous subscribers that aren't public safety. Is that OK because it's P25?

In Monroe County the Brighton and Pittsford Town Highway Departments went on SaiaNet to replace their Low Band systems. Other than interoperability with Law and Fire, that they never had before and was not an issue, the system is fine for their needs without the expense of P25 radios.

All the Monroe P25 subscribers I am aware of are Rule 90.15 eligible as "Public Safety" which includes: government agencies, public works, medical, school bus, etc..

 

[sallen07]

In Monroe County the Brighton and Pittsford Town Highway Departments went on SaiaNet to replace their Low Band systems. Other than interoperability with Law and Fire, that they never had before and was not an issue, the system is fine for their needs without the expense of P25 radios.

All the Monroe P25 subscribers I am aware of are Rule 90.15 eligible as "Public Safety" which includes: government agencies, public works, medical, school bus, etc..

Are you arguing with me or agreeing with me? Or both? I can't tell.

If the FCC classifies all those as "Public Safety" that's fine, but the question I was trying to pose (and appear to have failed in doing so) was, "Why is it OK for law enforcement, fire and EMS to share with school buses and dump trucks on a county P25 system but that's not OK on SaiaNet?"

I'm am still also wondering why some feel that SaiaNet is "not public safety grade". Actually I think I know the answer, but I'd like to see it.

 

[BTFire21]

Working in the local gov't sector I can tell you that moving towards a subscription or "lease" service is advantageous to most public agencies as dollars and people become scarce. Most users on SaiaNet pay a monthly fee and don't have to worry about anything. Antenna breaks call Saia,need a new radio in a bus...call Saia. Makes things alot of easier for budgets also as a radio system just becomes another utility bill.

The NFTA CFR was the first public safety organization to go on it and the system was far superior then the old EDACS system. Far better coverage and easier for InterOP. Far cheaper to pay for SaiaNet then try to rebuild a new system on their 3 sites.

If you have seen most of the public safety sites in Erie County VS SaiaNet sites you would see SaiaNet is engineered,designed, and built far better then the public safety sites.

Countywide fire and countywide police sound horrible and barely work in the SouthTowns.

 

[k2hz]

Are you arguing with me or agreeing with me? Or both? I can't tell.

If the FCC classifies all those as "Public Safety" that's fine, but the question I was trying to pose (and appear to have failed in doing so) was, "Why is it OK for law enforcement, fire and EMS to share with school buses and dump trucks on a county P25 system but that's not OK on SaiaNet?"

I'm am still also wondering why some feel that SaiaNet is "not public safety grade". Actually I think I know the answer, but I'd like to see it.

I guess I am agreeing. What is "not OK" about the sharing on SaiaNet? I see no problem with the fact that there are also non "public safety" subscribers on that system. As long as the traffic capacity on the system is adequate it is of no concern to the subscribers who the other users are. BTW - I think P25 radios in school buses is a waste of tax dollars better spent on actual education resources.

 

[ak716]

Countywide fire and countywide police sound horrible and barely work in the SouthTowns.

I think it's fixed now, but for a long time, CW Police used to have some sort of failure during poor weather, and you'd get nothing but open-air keying up every minute or so. It was rather annoying. It still sounds like they are talking in a tin can, though.

All that and having publicly funded county, state, Government, in direct competition with private sector dealers, is at a minimum, unethical, and if digging through various laws regarding use of public monies, may even be illegal, but that's another debate.

You lose me there. I have zero issues with a private, for-profit EMS agency (for example) operating on a government-owned TRS IF they a, buy their own equipment and pay to maintain it and b, the private EMS agency provides services have a need for direct, in-system interoperability to provide their critical services to the public better. While I know a P25 TRS is going to cost a lot more to build, maintain, and everything compared to some analog repeated frequencies, what's the difference between AMR dispatch and AMR units talking on Buffalo ADI like they do right now? Yes, I know they operate on SaiaNet, and previously the LTR Passport system, for their company operations and whatnot. ADI has publicly funded infrastructure. The National Incident Response channels are built with public funds, but NGOs are allowed to operate on them when necessary. The bottom line is if a public safety system is capable of handling the traffic and it allows for better emergency services, why not? Put some frosting on the cake and say we'll charge them an access fee to it too, to offset the cost. Now offering coverage to "Tom's Porta-Potty Service", where they have ZERO need to be on a publicly owned and operated system, totally different story. Devils advocate now, why should a private radio provider be allowed to benefit (profits from customers attracted by the ease of having everything on one system) by providing that same interoperability or access in their system to said public systems? With that logic, might as well completely restrict any non-government-operated agency from operating on any government-owned and operated infrastructure. Might as well go back to picking up the phone and having to play telephone every time you need to communicate with one another rather than having that potentially life-saving, direct, instant access.

 

[Trbogeek]

I think it's fixed now, but for a long time, CW Police used to have some sort of failure during poor weather, and you'd get nothing but open-air keying up every minute or so. It was rather annoying. It still sounds like they are talking in a tin can, though.


You lose me there. I have zero issues with a private, for-profit EMS agency (for example) operating on a government-owned TRS IF they a, buy their own equipment and pay to maintain it and b, the private EMS agency provides services have a need for direct, in-system interoperability to provide their critical services to the public better. While I know a P25 TRS is going to cost a lot more to build, maintain, and everything compared to some analog repeated frequencies, what's the difference between AMR dispatch and AMR units talking on Buffalo ADI like they do right now? Yes, I know they operate on SaiaNet, and previously the LTR Passport system, for their company operations and whatnot. ADI has publicly funded infrastructure. The National Incident Response channels are built with public funds, but NGOs are allowed to operate on them when necessary. The bottom line is if a public safety system is capable of handling the traffic and it allows for better emergency services, why not? Put some frosting on the cake and say we'll charge them an access fee to it too, to offset the cost. Now offering coverage to "Tom's Porta-Potty Service", where they have ZERO need to be on a publicly owned and operated system, totally different story. Devils advocate now, why should a private radio provider be allowed to benefit (profits from customers attracted by the ease of having everything on one system) by providing that same interoperability or access in their system to said public systems? With that logic, might as well completely restrict any non-government-operated agency from operating on any government-owned and operated infrastructure. Might as well go back to picking up the phone and having to play telephone every time you need to communicate with one another rather than having that potentially life-saving, direct, instant access.

If I answer this quickly, it's prudent spending of public monies, cost efficiency without loosing performance. It's the cost delta (DMR vs P25) between radios, infrastructure, and the labor to maintain (typically union and prevailing wage, as well as government employment perks) all on the public's back.