Scanning In Flight

[Voyager]

has anyone on the forums actually attempted midair listening?

I have on both private and one commercial airline (two trips). It's amazing what you can hear from up there despite the fact you are in a tin can. BUT, I had the window seat on the commercial airline (both ways) and the private craft was almost windows all the way around.

I heard trunked systems I STILL can't ID. The system ID simply does not exist in any public database. This was all 851-869 MHz. I forgot to search the 406-420 MHz band.

I even was running Trunker, too, so I was able to capture a lot of IDs. The airline attendant even specifically saw what I was doing. Of course, I shut everything down when they made the announcement to turn off all electronics devices, and didn't start them up until after they said it was OK. It was heartbreaking seeing all those frequencies on the edge of the runway without being able to listen. But, their rules were very clear that unless it's an essential piece of electronics such as a pacemaker, you were to not use it.

Joe M.

 

[mdmfl]

So, was an answer ever reached?

I read a lot of this thread and don't think I ever gathered much of an answer to the many questions posed.

From reading the links to the airline policies, I don't think I'll push the issue, but it does seem there's a gray area. I have used a little GPS numerous times in flight without being hassled. Works good by a window! But it is referred to as an FCC class B receiver, which I believe United Airlines specifically allows (except perhaps during the flight's "sterile" period).

Has a commercial pilot posted a response? Has an airline official posted? Has an FAA rep posted? What can you hear from within the metal fuselage? If I'm flying, I would like to hear the comms from the aircraft I'm on.

FWIW, I do know that most United Airlines flights play the aircraft comms on channel 9 of their in flight entertainment systems. It isn't that exciting, but I enjoy hearing what's going on, where we are, altitude, weather, active runways, etc. It may be most interesting to other pilots or flying enthusiasts.

I almost hate to re-open this thread, but I am still curious. I guess I'm not so worried about the strict legal issue because that can always be argued - I'd just like to hear what pilots, airlines and FAA has to say from a practical point of view.

Thanks!

 

[N_Jay]

I almost hate to re-open this thread, but I am still curious. I guess I'm not so worried about the strict legal issue because that can always be argued - I'd just like to hear what pilots, airlines and FAA has to say from a practical point of view.

Thanks!

Yo, it's a legal issue. Technically the issue is interference potential.

Saying it absolutely won't interfere is a hard job without testing every model of scanner in every configuration of aircraft with every possible nav/com signal condition.

You are not going to get any type of "official" answer, because in general those that have responsibility to provide such answers know not to say anything in this type of forum.
(And/Or, are specifically prohibited from commenting in this type of forum) :roll:

In a commercial aircraft in the US or on US based commercial airlines, the answer is a qualified "YES";
but the qualifications are, ONLY if the OPERATOR (The AIRLINE) says it is OK, and the Pilot agrees (The Pilot can say no, but can't say yes).
Since almost every airline has posted regulations prohibiting "receivers", the usual answer is "NO". :twisted:

P.S. The TSA could give a sh-t, its the FAA that cares, so the fact that they let you bring it on-board is IRRELEVANT. :roll:

P.P.S. If I missed any key points, chime in. If you are just going to refute this with substantiation, don't bother.

 

[DonS]

Yo, it's a legal issue. Technically the issue is interference potential.

Yes. The relevant FARs include 91.21, 121.306, 125.204, and 135.144. Those prohibit the use of any portable electronic device unless the operator or pilot in command, depending on the operating certificate, has determined that the device won't cause interference.

The FAA, according to the FARs, treats scanners no differently than laptop computers. The airlines ("operators"), though, certainly do treat them differently. Since the decision is up to the airlines, their word essentially has the force of law.

What I find curious is that this feared interference potential is probably worse for laptops than scanners. The two types of devices are subject to the same radiated emissions standards in Part 15 (15.109), but scanners are actually tested ("Certification"), while laptops merely have to have a "Declaration of Conformity" from the manufacturer (15.101).

Saying it absolutely won't interfere is a hard job without testing every model of scanner in every configuration of aircraft with every possible nav/com signal condition.

Yet the airlines allow laptops, PDAs, etc. While the airlines and/or aircraft manufacturers may have tested some of these devices, surely they haven't tested them all, on every aircraft, under every possible condition.

I'd guess that the reason the airlines allow laptops but not "radios" is based partly on potential customer outrage. The flying public really wants to use their laptops, but only a very small minority has any interest in operating a scanner. To keep the laptop users happy, they've spent a bit of time and money "testing" a sample of laptops (and other devices), and they're reasonably sure that these things won't cause a problem. Testing scanning receivers would likely have a very low return on the investment required.

Interestingly, Boeing has released a "Service Letter" (9 Mar 2001) that recommends:
Any PED which is not an intentional transmitter of radio signals:
a) Should be prohibited for use during taxi, takeoff, climbout, descent, final
approach, and landing. These devices include, but are not limited to laptop
computers, video cameras, tape recorders, radio and TV receivers, CD and
tape players, electronic entertainment devices, and electric shavers.
b) Should be allowed to operate during phases of flight other than taxi, takeoff,
climbout, descent, final approach, and landing unless the airline operator or
pilot in command of the aircraft has determined that the device should not be
operated.

 

[N_Jay]

. . .
I'd guess that the reason the airlines allow laptops but not "radios" is based partly on potential customer outrage. The flying public really wants to use their laptops, but only a very small minority has any interest in operating a scanner. . . . . [/i]

I think you may be over thinking this.

The rules pre-date laptop computers, AND common use of portable scanners.

Also back when the rules were written, receivers often leaked a substantial amount of LO signal (which could be in the aircraft band).

Do a quick search here and see how many people complain about one scanner affecting another.

 

[mike_s104]

just went on vacation in Las Vegas. on the Southwest flight from Dulles to McCarran, I took out my 396T and listened for a while then a crew member asked me to not use a radio in flight. I quietly turned it off and put it away. he never once said anything about the bluetooth GPS and PDA.

on the return flight, again with Southwest, I used the scanner again once they said it was OK to use electronic devices (just like before). no one said a word to me. so I used it the entire flight.

the crew member that asked me to not use the radio, wasn't very attentive to the passengers. we were a little disappointed with our choice of Southwest but the return flight was totally different. the crew members were very attentive. I guess it depends on the flight crew.

 

[N_Jay]

just went on vacation in Las Vegas. on the Southwest flight from Dulles to McCarran, I took out my 396T and listened for a while then a crew member asked me to not use a radio in flight. I quietly turned it off and put it away. he never once said anything about the bluetooth GPS and PDA.

on the return flight, again with Southwest, I used the scanner again once they said it was OK to use electronic devices (just like before). no one said a word to me. so I used it the entire flight.

the crew member that asked me to not use the radio, wasn't very attentive to the passengers. we were a little disappointed with our choice of Southwest but the return flight was totally different. the crew members were very attentive. I guess it depends on the flight crew.

Did they announce that no receivers or transmitters could be used?

 

[elk2370bruce]

The individual airlines have said NO to Scanners. (Regardless of our arguements and "what of" to the contrary.) The posts above show that when one has been used that the flight crew have nicely indicated that it be turned off. That is as clear a decision as you can get. Forget the ****house lawyer approach to depositions from pilots, flight crew, airline PIO's or even mommy. Do you really think that any of the aforementioned is interested enough in us to post on RR.com? If you believe this would happen, you need a stronger grip on reality.Currently, there is NO airline that permits the use of scanners in flight. This has been well documented and stated above clearly and repeatedly. What part of this entire thread (re-emerging every 60-90 days) that cannot be understood? There are a number of us who spend a significant amount of time in the air, both domestically and internationally, who have provided this guidance for everyone. Let this useless topic die the death it so richly deserves or you can challenge each airline's policy with the attorney of your choice. Better yet, keep listening even after you're asked to put the scanner away. You will usually get (as a minimum)a free trip in the Sky Marshal's Durango away from your flight at the next fixed facility. Forget arguing the legality (its not as grey as you are speculating - or wild-assed guessing) -and its been tried before and unsuccessfully. Previous cases have resulted in fines, loss of the listening toys, and sometimes earning a place on DHS's no fly list. Jail time is always a possibility for a real wise-ass. But, you can always play Clarence Darrow for a few years of useless appeals up to that great Do-Wap group - The Supremes (all nine of them).

 

[Stick0413]

The individual airlines have said NO to Scanners. (Regardless of our arguements and "what of" to the contrary.) The posts above show that when one has been used that the flight crew have nicely indicated that it be turned off. That is as clear a decision as you can get. Forget the ****house lawyer approach to depositions from pilots, flight crew, airline PIO's or even mommy. Do you really think that any of the aforementioned is interested enough in us to post on RR.com? If you believe this would happen, you need a stronger grip on reality.Currently, there is NO airline that permits the use of scanners in flight. This has been well documented and stated above clearly and repeatedly. What part of this entire thread (re-emerging every 60-90 days) that cannot be understood? There are a number of us who spend a significant amount of time in the air, both domestically and internationally, who have provided this guidance for everyone. Let this useless topic die the death it so richly deserves or you can challenge each airline's policy with the attorney of your choice. Better yet, keep listening even after you're asked to put the scanner away. You will usually get (as a minimum)a free trip in the Sky Marshal's Durango away from your flight at the next fixed facility. Forget arguing the legality (its not as grey as you are speculating - or wild-assed guessing) -and its been tried before and unsuccessfully. Previous cases have resulted in fines, loss of the listening toys, and sometimes earning a place on DHS's no fly list. Jail time is always a possibility for a real wise-ass. But, you can always play Clarence Darrow for a few years of useless appeals up to that great Do-Wap group - The Supremes (all nine of them).

Actually United allows them.

 

[N_Jay]

Actually United allows them.

No they don't!:roll:

And if you want to argue, please provide a SHRED of evidence!

Edit: From the United web site:

Electronic devices
Certain electronic devices may not be used on our planes for safety reasons. Such devices may cause electromagnetic interference with cockpit navigation or communications systems during ground operations and while the aircraft is flying below 10,000 feet. However, when an aircraft is traveling above 10,000 feet (normally about ten minutes after takeoff), passengers can use many of the devices listed.

Hearing aids, heart pacemakers, and watches are acceptable at all times.

These electronic devices can be used in the cabin, but may not be used during takeoff and landing:
Calculators
Handheld computer games
Shavers
Portable CD and tape players
Laptop computers/accessory printers/tape drives
Portable VCRs/video players
These electronic devices cannot be used on the airplane at any time:
Cellular phones (cellular phones maybe used on the plane at the gate before the aircraft door is closed or at captain's discretion when the plane is away from the gate and on the ground)
Televisions
AM/FM transmitters-receivers
Remote-controlled toys
(Emphasis Added)

 

[DarkPhoenix]

I can't believe this thread is still going!!!

 

[mfn002]

I thought of this when I glanced at the back FCC label on my 396. It said that "This device MAY NOT cause any harmful interference..." Commercial airliners and all jet-powered aircraft use a 400-cycle AC system, which could, technically, be vulnerable to interference. Most aircraft wiring is heavily insulated to reduce the possibility of interference.

 

[N_Jay]

I can't believe this thread is still going!!!

I can!

The names change but the answer is always the same.:lol: :evil: :lol:

 

[N_Jay]

I thought of this when I glanced at the back FCC label on my 396. It said that "This device MAY NOT cause any harmful interference..." Commercial airliners and all jet-powered aircraft use a 400-cycle AC system, which could, technically, be vulnerable to interference. Most aircraft wiring is heavily insulated to reduce the possibility of interference.

How about the FACT that aircraft navigation RECEIVERS have to detect and decode very small phase and amplitude changes in an AM VHF signal?

You can't "shield" an antenna and still have it work.

 

[OpSec]

I can't believe this thread is still going!!!

Ditto.

Let it die, people...let it die. No matter what you think you should or should not be allowed to do with your scanner on an aircraft, the fact remains the carriers have prohibited use of these devices on their planes. Get over it and move on.

FYI:
pro·hib·it (pr

-h

b

t) tr.v. pro·hib·it·ed, pro·hib·it·ing, pro·hib·its 1. To forbid by authority: Smoking is prohibited in most theaters. See Synonyms at forbid.
2. To prevent; preclude: Modesty prohibits me from saying what happened.

[Middle English prohibiten, from Latin prohib

re, prohibit- : pro-, in front; see pro-1 + hab

re, to hold; see ghabh- in Indo-European roots.]
hm();Sources=Sources | 2;

 

[N_Jay]

:lol: Who me??:lol:

 

[elk2370bruce]

We return, once again, to circular arguments - that go absolutely NOWHERE. If you want to try and use your scanner, go ahead and face the potential consequences of violating airline policy or facing more serious consequences. The airlines, as owners of the aircraft and employers of the flight crew can set their own policy. If you don't like that policy, search for another airline to fly with and quit the whining, carping, and SWAG. Everyone keeps playing "what if" and "its not fair", amateur debating, or providing unsubstantiated information that is self-serving and usually incomplete. Those of us who do fly a lot have tried to indicate the realities involved. Damn it! Let this topic, that goes nowhere, die. It is a total waste of time since some will just do what they want. If that's you, shut up and go for it. All that changes here are the logon names and pile behind the pony. Time for a moderator to just kill this. Any takers? N-Jay, we can't say we haven't repeatedly tried. As Popeye said so well in an old cartoon, " This is disgustipating. There are other threads where the amateur debating society ald lavatory lawyers can move for their ha-ha's. Stateboy said it short and sweet and right on target. "Can you hear me now?"

 

[N_Jay]

, . . . . Time for a moderator to just kill this. Any takers? N-Jay, we can't say we haven't repeatedly tried. . . .

To paraphrase a famous quote. I would not be part of any forum that would have me as a moderator.:lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Stick0413]

No they don't!:roll:

And if you want to argue, please provide a SHRED of evidence!

Edit: From the United web site:

Electronic devices
Certain electronic devices may not be used on our planes for safety reasons. Such devices may cause electromagnetic interference with cockpit navigation or communications systems during ground operations and while the aircraft is flying below 10,000 feet. However, when an aircraft is traveling above 10,000 feet (normally about ten minutes after takeoff), passengers can use many of the devices listed.

Hearing aids, heart pacemakers, and watches are acceptable at all times.

These electronic devices can be used in the cabin, but may not be used during takeoff and landing:
Calculators
Handheld computer games
Shavers
Portable CD and tape players
Laptop computers/accessory printers/tape drives
Portable VCRs/video players
These electronic devices cannot be used on the airplane at any time:
Cellular phones (cellular phones maybe used on the plane at the gate before the aircraft door is closed or at captain's discretion when the plane is away from the gate and on the ground)
Televisions
AM/FM transmitters-receivers
Remote-controlled toys
(Emphasis Added)

Well I have no PROOF but I flew with them last year and I took my scanner with me and the flight attendant said I could. I plain out asked her first. On the return flight I didnt ask and I listened to it with no problem. Maybe she didn't know what she was talking about, I can't answer for that. You can either take my word for it or you don't but I have absolutly no reason at all to lie about it.

 

[N_Jay]

Well I have no PROOF but I flew with them last year and I took my scanner with me and the flight attendant said I could. I plain out asked her first. On the return flight I didnt ask and I listened to it with no problem. Maybe she didn't know what she was talking about, I can't answer for that. You can either take my word for it or you don't but I have absolutly no reason at all to lie about it.

I go with the "Flight attendant did not know what she was talking about".

I fly United just a little bit (Several times a month)