Search & Rescue Group Adopts GMRS/FRS Channel 3

[mmckenna]

THIS.

Not to go off on too much of a tangent and get reprimanded by the mods, but there are FAR too many people who go "outside" and are totally unprepared. "Oh, it's OK. If I get lost or hurt I'll just use my cell phone to call for help." Yeah great. Especially if you are in an area where there is no cell coverage ... which is unfathomable to many.

Tangents, those are those things that look and taste like little oranges, right?

This does seem to happen a lot. "I'm scared and not prepared, send a helicopter". Even when there is two way communications between the "victim" and the rescuers, and the rescuers say that they are not in any danger, they still get upset. Went through that once or twice in the USCG. If people understood how much money it costs to spin up all the resources and the risks to the crews.


I can understand the fear side of the decision, and someone young or inexperienced might think that a helicopter would be the "safe" solution since it would get them out of their situation faster (or so they'd think). I've learned over the years to try and think things through before making a decision like that. Taking a few minutes to catch your breath and assess the situation was something I was always taught.

 

[mmckenna]

I forgot about Line A and Channel 21. Well, how about “Line 19” then (with a tip of the hat to CB Folks) for high power emergency use?

Would really depend on the radio.
Some older FRS radios won't support that. And in the older radios, there wasn't always a standard for channel/PL/DPL tone numbering.

I agree that the FCC requiring a red button on the radio that would take them to a preset channel with no PL/DPL would be a good solution.
However, I still think that FRS/GMRS is a poor choice. If that is the only option, then so be it, but giving consumers a false sense of security is probably going to do more harm than good. A nationwide standard would be better than regional "standards".

A dedicated PLB or similar satellite device removes most of the thinking required on behalf of the end user. Unless they are hiding in a cave, it's probably going to work anywhere on the globe. Compared to the amount of money some outdoor enthusiasts spend on equipment, a basic PLB is pretty cheap, especially when compared to the cost of human lives.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

THIS.

Not to go off on too much of a tangent and get reprimanded by the mods, but there are FAR too many people who go "outside" and are totally unprepared. "Oh, it's OK. If I get lost or hurt I'll just use my cell phone to call for help." Yeah great. Especially if you are in an area where there is no cell coverage ... which is unfathomable to many.

The New York State DEC (Department of Environmental Conservation) publishes periodic press releases that highlight activities by their Forest Rangers and Environmental Conservation Officers. They are filled with stories of people who go into the wilderness and have to be rescued. Most of the time that is not because they got injured, but simply because they were not prepared at all.

Press Releases

But it's not just the back country. At least once or twice a year we have a hiker who goes for a walk in one of our county parks, gets lost, and calls 911 to get "rescued". Understand that we're talking about parks where one is never more than a couple miles from a road. I recall in particular an incident a year or two ago where someone went for a walk (at dusk), didn't have a light, got "lost", and dialed 911. This was a day when the low temps at night were expected to stay in the 60s and no rain was forecast. The individual could have easily found some place to rest and waited until daylight and walked out. (I think they were even on a trail.) Sure, they might have been hungry and thirsty since they didn't bring water or food, but their life was never in any danger. But no, they called 911 and tied up a number of fire and law enforcement resources for a couple hours searching for them, just because they didn't bring a flashlight.

I believe the searchers found them on a trail about 1/2 mile from the parking lot.

We had a young autistic girl walk into woods behind her house an area of less that a couple square miles of wooded, sandy forest bordered by a highway and a lake. Trained searchers spent 3 days looking for her with a helicopter and all sorts of dogs , night vision etc. They gave up at one point and some random dude from off the street just walked in and found her in 20 minutes.

 

[hp8920]

The Garmin inReach devices, even your Mini, put out almost 1.5 watts (31.7 dBm) at 1.6 GHz. I am curious what dBm/watts the iPhone 14 uses for the satellite communication and the freq for whatever service it uses.

iPhone 14 uses the Globalstar network. Phone to satellite uplink is 1610-1618 MHz at 417 mW, according to the FCC filings. Satellite to phone is 2483-2500 MHz. Same bands as Iridium (inReach).

The iPhone makes you compensate for its lower power and relatively poor antenna by having you point at the satellites, not having much data to send, and requiring multiple retries.

 

[mmckenna]

iPhone 14 uses the Globalstar network. Phone to satellite uplink is 1610-1618 MHz at 417 mW, according to the FCC filings. Satellite to phone is 2483-2500 MHz. Same bands as Iridium (inReach).

The iPhone makes you compensate for its lower power and relatively poor antenna by having you point at the satellites, not having much data to send, and requiring multiple retries.

Thanks for that info. Useful stuff.

I know the Garmin InReach uses more transmit power, but I'm drawing a blank on what it is. It also has a better antenna.

My work cell phone is getting pretty old. I was researching this a bit last night looking at replacements that would support SMS via satellite. Kind of hard to find useful technical details.

 

[kayn1n32008]

The Garmin inReach devices, even your Mini, put out almost 1.5 watts (31.7 dBm) at 1.6 GHz. I am curious what dBm/watts the iPhone 14 uses for the satellite communication and the freq for whatever service it uses.

Edit. Never mind. Wrong info.

 

[hp8920]

I looked up the Iridium module that Garmin uses (FCC ID IPH-03302) and it's 1 watt, so the difference in transmitter output isn't that much, so yeah the big difference is the antenna. (I also found out Garmin tried to make an Iridium-equipped trail cam, FCC ID IPH-A3851).

Going a little off topic, the big difference between Iridium and Globalstar is that Iridium has satellite-cross links that relay data between satellites to one in view of a ground station. Coverage is only limited by regulatory issues. Globalstar does not, it's a bent-pipe system, where the satellite has to be within view of a ground station to work. You get no coverage for example in the middle of the ocean, and apparently one of their Russian ground stations got shut down so there's a hole there.

 

[natedawg1604]

In Colorado virtually no SAR teams (or public safety in general) use UHF for anything besides paging. I'm sure some teams do carry a few gmrs/frs radios, but they don't monitor them regularly.

 

[K6GBW]

Man, reading all this makes me realize how lucky I am. I've been backpacking into remote locations since the mid 1970's and, except for my time in the Army, I've never carried any kind of communcations equipment. I relied on using common sense and wilderness skills to keep out of trouble. How I've managed to stay alive for so long is a mystery.

 

[MUTNAV]

All of this reminds me of a story in a boating magazine. A young lady was trying to row accross the oceon, her boat pitch-poled and bruised or broke her ribs.... She hesitated a lot before calling for help because she knew it was her choice to take the risk, and others would be put at risk to help her.... I'd love to see that kind of maturity in more people nowdays...

Thanks
Joel

 

[natedawg1604]

All of this reminds me of a story in a boating magazine. A young lady was trying to row accross the oceon, her boat pitch-poled and bruised or broke her ribs.... She hesitated a lot before calling for help because she knew it was her choice to take the risk, and others would be put at risk to help her.... I'd love to see that kind of maturity in more people nowdays...

Thanks
Joel

It still happens today, people call 911 irate about their child being 20 minutes late to a visitation exchange; then someone calls in with clear Cardiac Arrest symptoms and they start by apologizing for wasting your time....

 

[KK6HRW]

Man, reading all this makes me realize how lucky I am. I've been backpacking into remote locations since the mid 1970's and, except for my time in the Army, I've never carried any kind of communcations equipment. I relied on using common sense and wilderness skills to keep out of trouble. How I've managed to stay alive for so long is a mystery.

I’m glad you have returned safely from all your backcountry hikes. Not everyone is as fortunate and, perhaps, a radio device might help. Please see below:


Search underway for missing person in Joshua Tree National Park

KESQ News Team

Published Sun May 07, 2023 6:17 PM PDT

Updated Sun May 07, 2023 7:47 PM PDT



The National Park Service is doing a missing person search in Joshua Tree National Park.

 

[W8UU]

Great topic and I agree it gets bandied around every so often. My thoughts: A "help channel" designation needs to come from the FCC and be designated some way on radios. Channel E was a great suggestion. Why not use 462.675 simplex? It's already the unofficial travel channel with the 141.3 hZ PL tone. It's high power GMRS which means a search and rescue team could (legally) take advantage of 50 watts and a base or mobile antenna to listen for and talk to someone who is lost, even if they only had an FRS portable to talk back. No Line A restrictions. Don't use PL - or stick with 141.3, and if you add the red Channel E button, maybe the radio defaults to transmitting that PL tone with CTCSS receive. This is a good idea but it shouldn't be fragmented across state lines. I'd love to see several national groups get behind this idea along with some manufacturers. There is a sales tool built in to advertising this feature to hikers and outdoors people as one of several resources they can purchase for their outdoor adventures. My $0.02.

 

[PrivatelyJeff]

Great topic and I agree it gets bandied around every so often. My thoughts: A "help channel" designation needs to come from the FCC and be designated some way on radios. Channel E was a great suggestion. Why not use 462.675 simplex? It's already the unofficial travel channel with the 141.3 hZ PL tone. It's high power GMRS which means a search and rescue team could (legally) take advantage of 50 watts and a base or mobile antenna to listen for and talk to someone who is lost, even if they only had an FRS portable to talk back. No Line A restrictions. Don't use PL - or stick with 141.3, and if you add the red Channel E button, maybe the radio defaults to transmitting that PL tone with CTCSS receive. This is a good idea but it shouldn't be fragmented across state lines. I'd love to see several national groups get behind this idea along with some manufacturers. There is a sales tool built in to advertising this feature to hikers and outdoors people as one of several resources they can purchase for their outdoor adventures. My $0.02.

I was thinking on it some more and if you could get APRS licensed for it, you could include a GPS module on the radios as well so if something goes wrong, you could activate “E” and it would beacon your location with each TX and at a set interval.

 

[MUTNAV]

Is there any moral hazard in going beyond just picking a suggested frequency for monitoring?

Thanks
Joel

 

[mmckenna]

Great topic and I agree it gets bandied around every so often. My thoughts: A "help channel" designation needs to come from the FCC and be designated some way on radios. Channel E was a great suggestion. Why not use 462.675 simplex? It's already the unofficial travel channel with the 141.3 hZ PL tone. It's high power GMRS which means a search and rescue team could (legally) take advantage of 50 watts and a base or mobile antenna to listen for and talk to someone who is lost, even if they only had an FRS portable to talk back. No Line A restrictions. Don't use PL - or stick with 141.3, and if you add the red Channel E button, maybe the radio defaults to transmitting that PL tone with CTCSS receive. This is a good idea but it shouldn't be fragmented across state lines. I'd love to see several national groups get behind this idea along with some manufacturers. There is a sales tool built in to advertising this feature to hikers and outdoors people as one of several resources they can purchase for their outdoor adventures. My $0.02.

Exactly.
Problem is, most FRS/GMRS users have no knowledge of this, and only think in terms of channel numbers. As I pointed out, in the early days, there wasn't a standardized channel/tone numbering, so setting up the radios to work properly took some knowledge of how radios work.
When the bubble pack radios came along, a lot of the consumers didn't know the difference between CB channel 19 or FRS channel 19 and would get annoyed that they could not talk to their good buddy.

675/141.3 is well established and was (at least at one time) mentioned in the FCC rules. In the "olden days" when you licensed for specific GMRS frequencies, 462/467.675 was always granted as a Travelers Assistance channel.

But it seems like individual groups want to come up with their own twist on this, which just leads to more and more confusion, and lower chances of actually getting any sort of help in an emergency.

 

[PrivatelyJeff]

Is there any moral hazard in going beyond just picking a suggested frequency for monitoring?

Thanks
Joel

Exactly.
Problem is, most FRS/GMRS users have no knowledge of this, and only think in terms of channel numbers. As I pointed out, in the early days, there wasn't a standardized channel/tone numbering, so setting up the radios to work properly took some knowledge of how radios work.
When the bubble pack radios came along, a lot of the consumers didn't know the difference between CB channel 19 or FRS channel 19 and would get annoyed that they could not talk to their good buddy.

675/141.3 is well established and was (at least at one time) mentioned in the FCC rules. In the "olden days" when you licensed for specific GMRS frequencies, 462/467.675 was always granted as a Travelers Assistance channel.

But it seems like individual groups want to come up with their own twist on this, which just leads to more and more confusion, and lower chances of actually getting any sort of help in an emergency.

That’s why I would make it part of the certification for the radio. The button would be red, have an “E”, would set the radio to a defined frequency with no tone and send a siren alert. It would be very easy for people to monitor and even setup their own alert if they receive a signal on it. The only downside I can see of it is people using it for “dumb” emergencies or laziness.

 

[mmckenna]

That’s why I would make it part of the certification for the radio. The button would be red, have an “E”, would set the radio to a defined frequency with no tone and send a siren alert. It would be very easy for people to monitor and even setup their own alert if they receive a signal on it.

-Require- a transmit PL of 141.3Hz to keep compliance with the old iteration of this. That would jive with the remaining REACT groups that still use GMRS, or those that have purposely set up 462/467.675 141.3Hz repeaters in their area.

The only downside I can see of it is people using it for “dumb” emergencies or laziness.

AKA: CB Channel 9. Which was a good idea, but then you had a few fools that had to wreck it for everyone else.

 

[MUTNAV]

That’s why I would make it part of the certification for the radio. The button would be red, have an “E”, would set the radio to a defined frequency with no tone and send a siren alert. It would be very easy for people to monitor and even setup their own alert if they receive a signal on it. The only downside I can see of it is people using it for “dumb” emergencies or laziness.

I was thinking along the lines of a false sense of security... Borrowing an idea from a TV show I saw once, some large water fountains were made to be as safe as possible (smooth edges, not the steepest slopes in the world etc.. and lots of people got hurt when they would try and climb on them, they then showed some very dangerous looking ones (sharp edges, steep etc...) and it was found that people avoided doing dangerous things on them.

I believe this is the one that the TV show labeled as "looking dangerous" with few accidents from people climbing on it.

Thanks
Joel

 

[KK6HRW]

I was thinking on it some more and if you could get APRS licensed for it, you could include a GPS module on the radios as well so if something goes wrong, you could activate “E” and it would beacon your location with each TX and at a set interval.

In 2021, in response to a petition, the FCC ruled that GPS derived location could be included in brief data transmissions on GMRS frequencies. I hope that this currently allowable technology can assist in locating ‘persons in distress’.